Lvl 12 Cleric Optimisation Help

[RCgothic]

I've been playing a cleric since level 1, and I've just hit level 12. Several other characters are taking the opportunity to rebuild at this point, so I thought I'd do the same, so I'm looking for advice.

Mirriana Conlan (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=360593)

The game's character creation guidelines:
1. Its D&D 3.5 obviously
2. Stats are 28 pb
3. Starting at level 1
4. Average wealth for class
5. 1 flaw/ 1 trait. If the flaw is not relevant I reserve the right to say "no"
6. NO Homebrew. No fixes.
7. Max hps at level 1. Rolled for the others

Anything from other sources you may request but may be "no". Small things like a feat or a spell are more likely then say a class.


The build so far has been Cleric 5/Crusader 1/Cleric 6-8/Ruby Knight Vindicator 3

The concept has been sword and board (yes, I know), using Shield Block and Iron Guard's Glare to protect her companions. Extra Readied Manoeuvre is basically mandatory to recycle Shield Block quickly. She forms a phalanx with another shield user in the party, and adds shield AC to touch AC. The extra Manoeuvres have been nice for a little bit of extra melee punch. White Raven Tactics is always nice, and Practiced Spellcaster recovers the lost caster levels, if not the lost spell levels. Ruby Knight Vindicator will eventually allow swift action shenanigans.

She's MAD as all hell though. The need for STR, WIS, DEX and CON is painful. She started out with just 14 WIS and has upgraded as she went along. A recent Inate bonus to INT meant I put a 4th level upgrade in there as there was no immediate benefit to having it somewhere else.

What was nice melee damage at level 6 is now meh, and I've been getting most of my punch from somewhere sanctified spells, which I can't help but notice I'm two whole spell levels behind the boss casters now. Ruby Knight Vindicator just isn't providing choice manoeuvres at a quick enough pace to be worthwhile.

So I'm trying to work out what to do and would like advice.

1) Tough it out with current build and RKV. Adjust feats and plan future purchases to be more optimised.

2) Revert to straight Cleric. Find some other way to provide an aura of protection to allies.

3) Cleric11/Crusader1. Gains a spell level and still has access to decent selection of 3rd level manoeuvres. Still gets IGG and Shield Block.

4) Something else.

Unfortunately my items are more or less loot and not up for exchange, but every other aspect of the build I'm willing to reconsider including Attributes. I want her to be a melee tank with decent damage who protects others and keeps up on spellcasting as much as possible.

[Venger]

I'm not really sure why you went back into cleric after 5. Cleric has nothing after 1, so should be left asap. stay in rkv. it's a good class.

[RCgothic]

I'm not really sure why you went back into cleric after 5. Cleric has nothing after 1, so should be left asap. stay in rkv. it's a good class.

It's because of the trade offs involved in playing the character for almost five years from level 1. (The game started August 2013).

Mechanically strongest at level 20 would be Cleric 9 / Crusader1 / RKV 10, but I'd only be getting RKV1 now. Cleric5/Crusader1/RKV10/Cleric 4 would only be IL13 for its last manoeuvre.

At level 7 I'd just lost a caster level to Crusader and so two levels of cleric got me level 4 spells faster than going straight into RKV. I wasn't prepared to wait. Also by waiting a bit for RKV1 I could pick up a 3rd level stance.

Those trade offs are less relevant now that I no longer have to replay through level 1, but I also feel I'm not doing enough with RKV to make the loss of spell levels worthwhile. The protective stance and manoeuvres come in at Crusader1, and swift action shenanigans are a while off yet. RKV is being overshadowed by spells despite their reduced levels.

[AnimeTheCat]

I would suggest you adjust to being either a Human (with Able Learner) or a Cloistered Cleric for levels 1-4, take Crusader for level 5, and start on RKV at levels 6-11. You'll be 6 levels through RKV and will only gain spellcasting levels from that point on. Skill growth, assuming an int of 12, should enable you to get 2 ranks fo hide at level 1 and 1 full rank in hide at levels 3 and 5, then start with 2 ranks in Intimidate at level 1, with 2 more ranks at level 5. Keep your Knowledge (Religion) maxed till level 5.

For feats, I would start by taking the law domain from Wee Jas and trading it away for Law Devotion to get an AC boosting Aura for your allies. The rest of your feats I think would be best spent on Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent Spell. If you have access to Nightsticks, get some of those and persist the Divine X line of spells on yourself to reduce your reliance on base strength and other physical ability scores. Use your other feats on Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fightin so that you can weaponize your shield and put it to use for something other than +1 or +2 shield bonus to AC.

That's what I would do, personally, if I were making a warrior cleric of Wee Jas.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, the simple version would be cleric 4/crusader 1/ruby knight vindicator 7. You get your swift-action shenanigans, 9th-level cleric casting, and an extra point of base attack. More maneuvers, too, and a higher initiator level. Your next levels would be in RKV, cleric, Ordained Champion (requires adaptation), Prestige Paladin (three levels only), or perhaps Knight of the Raven. Legacy Champion could extend RKV, too, if you want that.


If you want a more elaborate rebuild, you could consider divine bard 4/crusader 1/knight of the raven 3/ruby knight vindicator 4, continuing with RKV +3/KotR +2/RKV +3. At level 12, your feats would be Dragonfire Inspiration, Extra Music, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Chaos Music, and Song of the White Raven. You would need to get a vest of legends somewhere (buy or trade for it, it's 16 000 gp), which would get you 14th-level Inspire Courage that you can activate as a swift action. You would start your turn by activating IC and DFI (swift and standard), granting allies within range a +8 bonus to hit, +8 to damage, and +8d6 fire damage on all attacks, and then move into position to block your enemies. Once you hit RKV 7, you'd get the ability to activate IC and DFI without using your standard, allowing you to move-attack or charge on the same turn.

Of course, the latter build has some alignment conflicts (must be a chaotic follower of Wee Jas), which you can either solve by taking Heretic of the Faith, or by talking to your DM about how stupid it is that Chaos Music (which is basically Practiced Spellcaster for bardic music) is a [chaotic] feat, or by dropping Chaos Music altogether and taking a different feat (reduces your IC/DFI bonus by 2).

[RCgothic]

Thanks for the suggestions both.

I would suggest you adjust to being either a Human (with Able Learner) or a Cloistered Cleric for levels 1-4, take Crusader for level 5, and start on RKV at levels 6-11. You'll be 6 levels through RKV and will only gain spellcasting levels from that point on. Skill growth, assuming an int of 12, should enable you to get 2 ranks fo hide at level 1 and 1 full rank in hide at levels 3 and 5, then start with 2 ranks in Intimidate at level 1, with 2 more ranks at level 5. Keep your Knowledge (Religion) maxed till level 5.

For feats, I would start by taking the law domain from Wee Jas and trading it away for Law Devotion to get an AC boosting Aura for your allies. The rest of your feats I think would be best spent on Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent Spell. If you have access to Nightsticks, get some of those and persist the Divine X line of spells on yourself to reduce your reliance on base strength and other physical ability scores. Use your other feats on Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fightin so that you can weaponize your shield and put it to use for something other than +1 or +2 shield bonus to AC.

That's what I would do, personally, if I were making a warrior cleric of Wee Jas.
The problem with taking RKV that early is that by Lvl16 the IL will only 13, lvl 7 only. But I've gone off RKV a bit. I don't have enough daily turns to properly exploit the swift action stuff, and the lost caster levels hurt too much.

Trading Law domain for Law devotion is a really interesting idea I hadn't thought of before, particularly as Law Domain and Law Devotion is appropriate to her. How does it become an Aura for her allies though?

I think I'm going to neglect TWF, it's too feat intesnive and in a couple of levels I'll take Animated Shield for all the benefits and none of the drawbacks whilst THF.


Well, the simple version would be cleric 4/crusader 1/ruby knight vindicator 7. You get your swift-action shenanigans, 9th-level cleric casting, and an extra point of base attack. More maneuvers, too, and a higher initiator level. Your next levels would be in RKV, cleric, Ordained Champion (requires adaptation), Prestige Paladin (three levels only), or perhaps Knight of the Raven. Legacy Champion could extend RKV, too, if you want that.

If you want a more elaborate rebuild, you could consider divine bard 4/crusader 1/knight of the raven 3/ruby knight vindicator 4, continuing with RKV +3/KotR +2/RKV +3. At level 12, your feats would be Dragonfire Inspiration, Extra Music, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Chaos Music, and Song of the White Raven. You would need to get a vest of legends somewhere (buy or trade for it, it's 16 000 gp), which would get you 14th-level Inspire Courage that you can activate as a swift action. You would start your turn by activating IC and DFI (swift and standard), granting allies within range a +8 bonus to hit, +8 to damage, and +8d6 fire damage on all attacks, and then move into position to block your enemies. Once you hit RKV 7, you'd get the ability to activate IC and DFI without using your standard, allowing you to move-attack or charge on the same turn.

Of course, the latter build has some alignment conflicts (must be a chaotic follower of Wee Jas), which you can either solve by taking Heretic of the Faith, or by talking to your DM about how stupid it is that Chaos Music (which is basically Practiced Spellcaster for bardic music) is a [chaotic] feat, or by dropping Chaos Music altogether and taking a different feat (reduces your IC/DFI bonus by 2).
Again, interesting, but I think I'm too short on turn sources to truly do justice to the first build, it loses later initiator levels. The second build loses way too many caster levels tbh.

But my gears have been turning. The only reason to stay in cleric is to boost the power of turning, which I'm not really using at present. So that gets dumped. I've been looking through some prestige classes and I think the following may be a goer:

Cleric3 / Church Inquisitor 2 / Divine Oracle 2 / Divine Disciple 4 / Crusader 1

Compared to current build it gets -2 BaB and -2STR. I need to accept that my to hit and damage is going to come from spell buffs, not innate ability so much. I lose a manoeuvre I'm not using and RKV's Divine Recovery, but I didn't really have the turns for that anyway. I also ditched the Knowledge Domain.

In place I get:

+ 1 spell level (1 new 1st, 1 new 3rd, 2 new 6th).
+2 WIS (1 new 1st, 1 new 5th)
+3 WILL
+ Law Domain, (traded for Spontaneous Restoration and Law Devotion)
+ Inquisition Domain (bonus to Dispel)
+ Oracle Domain (Bonus to Div)
+ Air Domain (Rebuke Air, nice selection)
+ Detect Evil
+ Immune to Charms
+ Scry Bonus
+ Prescient Sense (Armoured Evasion basically - if she ever passes a reflex save!)
+ Trap Sense +1
+ Divine Emissary (telepathy with outsiders inside 60ft)
+ Sacred Defense +2 to Saves vs Divine Spells and [Su] of Outsiders
+ Imbue with Spell Ability


The cheesiest thing is attempting to trade away Law's domain power before trading away the entire domain. Alternatively Magic's UMD as a wizard as cleric/2 will have to go but that's no big deal.

The main advantage is an extra spell level plus a huge library of Domain spells to select from (utility rather than power, as I can still only select one.) The rest is mostly nifty rather than overpowered. I'd need to depend on spells to a greater extent than I currently do, though I still have three or four open feats to select.

I'm thinking Spontaneous Domain (Magic or Air have nice lists) is good. Maybe some regular metamagic. Other suggestions welcome along the lines of:

Improve the protection she can give to others.
Increase the damage she can do with a sword.
Increase the potency of her spellcasting.

And here's hoping my DM doesn't throw a book at me for all those stacked WILL saves.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thanks for the suggestions both.

The problem with taking RKV that early is that by Lvl16 the IL will only 13, lvl 7 only. But I've gone off RKV a bit. I don't have enough daily turns to properly exploit the swift action stuff, and the lost caster levels hurt too much.

I guess I'm wondering if your priority is the sword and board aspects or the clerical aspects. In a perfect world clerics are superior, and with the way youre getting loot its probably best to assume you wont get the exact items you want, which lends to clerics more that martial characters, especially those who are focused in one of the more subpar combat styles. What is your character's focus?



Trading Law domain for Law devotion is a really interesting idea I hadn't thought of before, particularly as Law Domain and Law Devotion is appropriate to her. How does it become an Aura for her allies though?

For starters, you get it by being completely incompetent and mixing up the law and protection domains... I like that build on dwarfs with moradin where I take protection devotion that grants a protective aura. If the DM is willing to flex on the deity prerequisite for RKV, that could be an option.



I think I'm going to neglect TWF, it's too feat intesnive and in a couple of levels I'll take Animated Shield for all the benefits and none of the drawbacks whilst THF.


That's fine. Although, once you transition to that you can always get some armor spikes as your offhand attacks and still get your full benefits. If you choose the actual law devotion, you can mitigate pretty much all of your TWF penalties and get pretty much nothing but benefit.

One more thought, one that would ease access to RKV and poise yourself for better initiating, would be a level of rogue, or the rogue ACF that trades sneak attack for fighter feats. Now, this focuses on the fighting part and puts you further behind on the spellcasting, but feat rogue 2/fighter 2/Cleric 1 gets you 4 more feats, at the loss of nearly every spellcastee level. If You're aiming for a fighting character with a smattering of magic, that could be a start, and would free up feats for extra turning if you wanted/needed. Another option, piggybacking off of that, is cloistered cleric 1/feat Rogue 2/fighter 1/Crusader 1/RKV 6. It throws magic far to the wayside, but gives you 3 feats for combat focused things, thereby freeing up other feats fir things like extra turning.

One last suggestion. If you are indeed a cleric of Wee Jas, I can't recommend the magic domain enough. With one level of cleric with the magic domain, you can activate any wand or staff that has an arcane spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. No check necessary, nothing. You have 1 effective wizard caster level which lets you activate magic items from the wizard spell list without UMD. Wands of Wraithstrike are a favorite.

[RCgothic]

She's not a cleric of Wee Jas, she's a cleric of an aspect of Mystra which gives her a lot of leeway to do whatever she wants. Her original domains were Knowledge and Magic for instance. But Law and magic suit her just as well, as do inquisition (tied to law) and oracle (chosen of Mystara has been in her background all along). Air makes sense because of the campaign's connection to the Vaati and Mirriana has been using their artifacts and their servants obey her authority. Protection has been her style of combat, so there'll be no objections there either.

Protection devotion is awesome! Exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for. +5 sacred to AC for everyone within 50ft is exactly her thing.

Her basic concept is that she makes herself hard to hit whilst forcing the enemy to focus on her. Up until now I've been leaning towards sword and board, but I'm trying to rebalance towards spellcasting. At level 12 Crusader1 is almost as effective as Cru1/RKV3.

I think I'm going to go with the Cleric3/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle2/Divine Disciple4/Crusader 1 build.

Stance: Iron Guard's Glare.
Manoeuvres:
Shield Block
Defensive Rebuke
Foehammer
Douse The Flames
White Raven Tactics

For feats I'm thinking:
Human: Parrying Shield
Flaw: Shield Wall
1: Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion)
3: Protection Devotion
3ACF: Spontaneous Restoration
4Law: Law Devotion
6: Extra Turning
9: Quicken Spell
12: Extra Granted Manoeuvre

I've asked whether Turn Earth/Rebuke Air works on Divine feats. If it does I'll probably take Extra Turning (8 extra uses!). If not I might take more metamagic.