Ever any chance of 3.5 updates officially from WOTC?

[schreier]

I was looking at WoD games, and they did a 20th anniversary version of the OWoD (Old World of Darkness) - with updates to the metaplot and everything else. They did a lot of printing on demand, and that kind of thing.

Since 3.5 has kind of proven to be a long-term game, with some playing 5.0 and some playing 3.5, it seems like that kind of publishing could be successful. My guess is no, but it seems like Black Onyx (the new White Wolf) has done relatively well with reprinting and updating old game systems.

Could get old FAQ issues cleared up, while still making money - and reprinting the old books might bring revenue with relatively low cost of production.

[Venger]

I was looking at WoD games, and they did a 20th anniversary version of the OWoD (Old World of Darkness) - with updates to the metaplot and everything else. They did a lot of printing on demand, and that kind of thing.

Since 3.5 has kind of proven to be a long-term game, with some playing 5.0 and some playing 3.5, it seems like that kind of publishing could be successful. My guess is no, but it seems like Black Onyx (the new White Wolf) has done relatively well with reprinting and updating old game systems.

Could get old FAQ issues cleared up, while still making money - and reprinting the old books might bring revenue with relatively low cost of production.

I wouldn't hold your breath. wotc does not care about prior editions' fanbases, it's chasing the latest ones.

wotc's 3.5 books may be out of print, but they do still sell licensed pdfs to make some money for people who play the game.

[Troacctid]

3.5 is no longer supported and that is not going to change. 5e is the most popular TRPG on the market right now. Why would they spend resources on an older, less accessible edition of the game?

There are still plenty of lore updates in 5e material that you can use, and adventures that you can convert. But 3.5 will not be getting new official content.

[Kish]

Unlikely. Even if 3.5 is more popular overall than 5.0 (I don't know one way or the other about that), releasing updates for it would send an unprecedented "for D&D, you shouldn't necessarily be buying stuff for our newest edition!" message--"unprecedented" here including "they didn't do it for years of 3.5 being unambiguously more popular than 4.0."

[Pronounceable]

All wotc employees are contractually obligated to pretend the entirety of roleplaying hobby begins and ends with the latest version of DnD at all times in public. So no, it won't happen.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
5e is the most popular TRPG on the market right now.

Are there any market data to support this?

I’m not arguing one way or the other, just interested in whether there’s information based on sales data or other sources.

[Troacctid]

Unlikely. Even if 3.5 is more popular overall than 5.0 (I don't know one way or the other about that), releasing updates for it would send an unprecedented "for D&D, you shouldn't necessarily be buying stuff for our newest edition!" message--"unprecedented" here including "they didn't do it for years of 3.5 being unambiguously more popular than 4.0."
5e is definitely much more popular.


All wotc employees are contractually obligated to pretend the entirety of roleplaying hobby begins and ends with the latest version of DnD at all times in public. So no, it won't happen.
WotC employees talk about other roleplaying games in public all the time. They just don't spend their work hours writing material for them.


Are there any market data to support this?

I’m not arguing one way or the other, just interested in whether there’s information based on sales data or other sources.
Sure. The most readily available stats are from Roll20, where 5e has more active games and players than all other systems combined.

[Zanos]

The New World of Darkness settings were pretty hated. I want to say even more than 4e was. I think it's unlikely that WotC will go back. Everyone and their dog seems to be at least trying 5e, although some of the games on roll20 probably don't leave the best first impression. In addition Pathfinder fills the space of ongoing support for 3.5 for a lot of people, even if I personally don't like it.

I'm not really sure I'd want them to come back and "fix" it. Balancing it would just involve creating a new version.

[Feantar]

Sure. The most readily available stats are from Roll20, where 5e has more active games and players than all other systems combined.

While I'd tend to believe that 5e is probably the most popular (due to WotC's customer base), Roll20 metrics are not a safe bet. They speak to a community that plays games mostly remotely, while tabletop games are traditionally played in person. Yes, I am aware this might be a shifting trend, but from personal experience (unecdotal evidence I know, but barring any research on the subject, my best bet) there's no way to know how much it has shifted.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
The most readily available stats are from Roll20, where 5e has more active games and players than all other systems combined.


Originally Posted by Feantar
…Roll20 metrics are not a safe bet. They speak to a community that plays games mostly remotely, while tabletop games are traditionally played in person.

I agree with Feantar that estimates from an online gaming site aren’t the most reliable.

Are there any actual sales data that can be referenced here? Any information on print runs, customer surveys, etc.?

[Troacctid]

While I'd tend to believe that 5e is probably the most popular (due to WotC's customer base), Roll20 metrics are not a safe bet. They speak to a community that plays games mostly remotely, while tabletop games are traditionally played in person. Yes, I am aware this might be a shifting trend, but from personal experience (unecdotal evidence I know, but barring any research on the subject, my best bet) there's no way to know how much it has shifted.
You can look at convention schedules. I was at Kublacon just last weekend and there were always about 30 tables of 5e running at all times, where Pathfinder had closer to half a dozen, and I don't think there were any 3.5 games at all for the whole weekend, or if there were, you could count them on one hand. Or scroll through the GenCon 2018 (https://www.gencon.com/event_finder?search=dungeons+%26+dragons) schedule, and it's pretty obvious which edition has more tables.


I agree with Feantar that estimates from an online gaming site aren’t the most reliable.

Are there any actual sales data that can be referenced here? Any information on print runs, customer surveys, etc.?
You can look at the Amazon Best-Sellers (https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Books-Fantasy-Gaming/zgbs/books/16211/) list for Fantasy Gaming. At the time of this posting, all of the top 5 sellers are 5e. Starfinder comes in at #23, Pathfinder doesn't make a showing until #42, and the Player's Handbook 3.5 just barely squeaks into the top 100 at #96.

Hard sales data and customer surveys are proprietary information that WotC is unlikely to release, outside of what's disclosed in Hasbro's financial statements. But there's enough data publicly available that we can get a pretty good idea.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
You can look at convention schedules.

This is similar to the online games, in that you have a strongly self-selected population which skews the results to an unknown degree.

For instance, I’ve played 3.5 and Pathfinder for the past fifteen years combined, but I’ve never been to an RPG convention in my life, so my “vote” is uncounted by the tables-at-conventions method. All it really tells you is the current focus of the very small subset of gamers who attend American conventions. It doesn’t say anything about the relative popularity of different editions among the entire gaming population, which is globally distributed.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
You can look at the Amazon Best-Sellers list for Fantasy Gaming. At the time of this posting, all of the top 5 sellers are 5e.

Very interesting, thanks.

This will be worth checking again when Pathfinder finally brings out the new hardbacks for their second edition.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
Hard sales data and customer surveys are proprietary information that WotC is unlikely to release….

Sure, although Paizo seems to be a little more open. I think it was Vic Wertz who wote a detailed blog entry about a rather notorious cover error for the Advanced Class Guide, in which he mentioned their first print run was 100,000 copies. I think that’s one of the few actual numbers that we have for a hardback print run.

This topic comes up occasionally, and there are usually anecdotes and correlates mentioned, as well as a few driplets of data. It would be great if all of that was brought together somewhere.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
…and the Player's Handbook 3.5 just barely squeaks into the top 100 at #96.

This is actually not bad for an edition that’s technically been dead for ten years.

…or would, since it doesn’t even show up when I checked the link just now. Evidently it’s updated between your post and mine.

This does raise the question of whether Amazon's best-seller list is only counting new items sold by Amazon itself, or if it includes books sold by third-party sellers. I suspect not, so the Amazon list is probably missing a significant aftermarket trade.

And that's also not counting used bookstores, library bookshops, thrift shops, etc. where people are also buying 3.5 titles.

[schreier]

Sales would definitely not be the best metric, since most serious 3.5 gamers have most of the products that they could use now.

That being said, not surprised that 5.0 is the most popular. I've seen some people say that 5.0 is easier, but 3.5 is deeper and more fleshed out. Which also makes sense since it had so long in the spotlight. IF they already have PDF sales - don't need a ton there. But I bet a 3.5 update would sell very well, even if it was just a standalone - like go to all the forums, try to collect the main unanswered questions, and sell that. Have sales goals that, if hit, would then have updates to the various worlds (say Eberron first, then Forgotten Realms - to try and drive sales since more people would want the forgotten realms. That would update realms-specific questions, bring the timeline up to date, maybe add a few prestige classes and feats (since that's what everyone wants) ... not full-fledged support, but a relatively low-hanging fruit print run that will make lots of customers happy. If it is particularly successful, could expand it with a section in the end of "setting books" with 3.5 information

I know - a pipe dream ... although I think it would be a low amount of work, and would cause 3.5 players to delve into the 5.0 books more.

[ericgrau]

I was looking at WoD games, and they did a 20th anniversary version of the OWoD (Old World of Darkness) - with updates to the metaplot and everything else. They did a lot of printing on demand, and that kind of thing.

Since 3.5 has kind of proven to be a long-term game, with some playing 5.0 and some playing 3.5, it seems like that kind of publishing could be successful. My guess is no, but it seems like Black Onyx (the new White Wolf) has done relatively well with reprinting and updating old game systems.

Could get old FAQ issues cleared up, while still making money - and reprinting the old books might bring revenue with relatively low cost of production.

Reprinting anniversary edition 3.5 books at some point? Absolutely. Didn't they do that for AD&D? Clearing up old questions and thus stirring up arguments & hate for no profit? Absolutely not. I'm sure the reprints would be perfect copies of the originals, except perhaps for official errata that was made a long time ago. Actually, did they already do that for 3.5?

[Venger]

Reprinting anniversary edition 3.5 books at some point? Absolutely. Didn't they do that for AD&D? Clearing up old questions and thus stirring up arguments & hate for no profit? Absolutely not. I'm sure the reprints would be perfect copies of the originals, except perhaps for official errata that was made a long time ago. Actually, did they already do that for 3.5?

Even if they do continue to have terrible wrong opinions on the rules, it won't hurt anything, faq/custserv ≠raw. But yeah, I don't think they're very likely to devote time and manpower to just pissing us off without making any money.

They put out an anniversary edition of the phb in 2004, I think, since it was the 30th anniversary of the game. beyond that, I'm not sure.

[Troacctid]

This is similar to the online games, in that you have a strongly self-selected population which skews the results to an unknown degree.

For instance, I’ve played 3.5 and Pathfinder for the past fifteen years combined, but I’ve never been to an RPG convention in my life, so my “vote” is uncounted by the tables-at-conventions method. All it really tells you is the current focus of the very small subset of gamers who attend American conventions. It doesn’t say anything about the relative popularity of different editions among the entire gaming population, which is globally distributed.
You asked for data. 🤷


Very interesting, thanks.

This will be worth checking again when Pathfinder finally brings out the new hardbacks for their second edition.
Pathfinder Playtest is on the list too, actually! I believe it's somewhere below Starfinder.


This does raise the question of whether Amazon's best-seller list is only counting new items sold by Amazon itself, or if it includes books sold by third-party sellers. I suspect not, so the Amazon list is probably missing a significant aftermarket trade.

And that's also not counting used bookstores, library bookshops, thrift shops, etc. where people are also buying 3.5 titles.
You can also look at PDF sales (http://www.dmsguild.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast?test_epoch=0&page=1&sort=6a), which can be sorted by popularity. 3.5 looks like it comes in behind AD&D 2e, which is interesting.


Sales would definitely not be the best metric, since most serious 3.5 gamers have most of the products that they could use now.
In other words, the player base has stagnated and is only shrinking as old gaming groups eventually break up and new players are siphoned off to other games?


But I bet a 3.5 update would sell very well, even if it was just a standalone - like go to all the forums, try to collect the main unanswered questions, and sell that. Have sales goals that, if hit, would then have updates to the various worlds (say Eberron first, then Forgotten Realms - to try and drive sales since more people would want the forgotten realms. That would update realms-specific questions, bring the timeline up to date, maybe add a few prestige classes and feats (since that's what everyone wants) ... not full-fledged support, but a relatively low-hanging fruit print run that will make lots of customers happy. If it is particularly successful, could expand it with a section in the end of "setting books" with 3.5 information

I know - a pipe dream ... although I think it would be a low amount of work, and would cause 3.5 players to delve into the 5.0 books more.
Sounds like you just described Pathfinder.

[Cosi]

The cold, hard reality of the matter is that 5e puts out two things that you could charitably be called rulebooks in a year. Those aren't the numbers of a game that is succeeding. 5e fans will tell you how it is super important that 5e not suffer from "content bloat", but the reality is that there is simply not a 5e producing line to be succeeding.

As far as data goes, the point that interests me is that a used 3.5 PHB (https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook-Rulebook/dp/0786928867) sells for more than a new 5e PHB (https://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Dungeons-Dragons-Wizards/dp/0786965606). Remember, 3.5 has been dead for a decade, and 95% of relevant material in the PHB is up free and legal as part of the SRD. When you ask people to put their money where their mouth is, they like 3e more than 5e. Dramatically more.

[JNAProductions]

The cold, hard reality of the matter is that 5e puts out two things that you could charitably be called rulebooks in a year. Those aren't the numbers of a game that is succeeding. 5e fans will tell you how it is super important that 5e not suffer from "content bloat", but the reality is that there is simply not a 5e producing line to be succeeding.

As far as data goes, the point that interests me is that a used 3.5 PHB (https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook-Rulebook/dp/0786928867) sells for more than a new 5e PHB (https://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Dungeons-Dragons-Wizards/dp/0786965606). Remember, 3.5 has been dead for a decade, and 95% of relevant material in the PHB is up free and legal as part of the SRD. When you ask people to put their money where their mouth is, they like 3e more than 5e. Dramatically more.

Because there's absolutely no way that an older thing that's no longer in print would be worth more than a new thing currently in print-why, heavens to Betsy, that just makes no sense considering limited supply!

Did you not notice how 5E books are vastly outstripping the older editions in sales numbers? And, as a 5E player, I'd much rather each book that comes out be GOOD than for there to be a lot of them.

[Arcanist]

Actually, did they already do that for 3.5?

Yep. They reprinted the PHB, DMG, MM1, MiC, and SC. All of which lacked any erratas that I can tell, which was really unfortunate.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
You asked for data.

And my point is that guesstimates based on convention tables or online games aren’t especially accurate, especially for a game that’s primarily played in peoples’ homes. Estimating its popularity from conventions or PbP includes too many unknowns to be useful, since that’s based on a tiny proportion of the total gaming population.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
Pathfinder Playtest is on the list too, actually!

It was smack at #100 when I checked earlier. Now that spot is taken by Occult Adventures.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
You can also look at PDF sales, which can be sorted by popularity. 3.5 looks like it comes in behind AD&D 2e, which is interesting.

Very interesting indeed.


Originally Posted by schreier
Sales would definitely not be the best metric, since most serious 3.5 gamers have most of the products that they could use now.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
In other words, the player base has stagnated and is only shrinking as old gaming groups eventually break up and new players are siphoned off to other games?

That’s not really fair. It hardly follows that the player base has “stagnated” because long-term gamers have bought a certain number of books. These are two completely different things.

As an example, I’ve just bought what’s likely to be my last Pathfinder hardback, after a couple years of slowly acquiring the major titles. I’m saturated on hardback purchases, but does this mean my campaign has “stagnated”? I don’t think so, and it certainly doesn’t follow that my campaign is doomed to stagnation just because I’ve decided I have enough hardbacks. Those are completely different processes—one social and interactive, the other personal and financial.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
Sounds like you just described Pathfinder.

Sounds like he just described an update to Eberron and the Forgotten Realms, a.k.a. where Pathfinder by definition isn’t set.


Originally Posted by Venger
They put out an anniversary edition of the phb in 2004, I think, since it was the 30th anniversary of the game. beyond that, I'm not sure.

There are “premium” editions of the DMG, Monster Manual, Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium, all printed in 2012.

[Cosi]

Because there's absolutely no way that an older thing that's no longer in print would be worth more than a new thing currently in print-why, heavens to Betsy, that just makes no sense considering limited supply!

Oh hey look, the 2e PHB (https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook/dp/0880387165) is cheaper than either. As is the 4e one (https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook-Roleplaying/dp/0786948671). And neither of those are 95% content you can get for free. It's almost like there's something to the idea that 3e's quality relative to later editions is different from other editions.

The one for 1st edition (https://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0394511123) is more expensive though, so you're not entirely wrong.


Did you not notice how 5E books are vastly outstripping the older editions in sales numbers? And, as a 5E player, I'd much rather each book that comes out be GOOD than for there to be a lot of them.

So I take it you don't own any 5e books?

[JNAProductions]

Oh hey look, the 2e PHB (https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook/dp/0880387165) is cheaper than either. As is the 4e one (https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook-Roleplaying/dp/0786948671). And neither of those are 95% content you can get for free. It's almost like there's something to the idea that 3e's quality relative to later editions is different from other editions.

The one for 1st edition (https://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0394511123) is more expensive though, so you're not entirely wrong.

So I take it you don't own any 5e books?

I own every 5E rulebook except SCAG. They're significantly more balanced and easier to play than the 3.5 rules. And, I find, a lot more fun to actually play too.

[Cosi]

For additional reference, here are the prices of Shadowrun core rulebooks, from the latest edition back (1st edition was omitted because I could not quickly find an Amazon page):

5th Edition -- $41.48 (https://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-Fifth-Jason-M-Hardy/dp/1936876515)
4th Edition, Anniversary -- $40.00 (https://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-20th-Anniversary-Catalyst-Game/dp/1934857319) (WIkipedia lists various publication dates for this and the 4e core book, but they look to be roughly the same time as D&D 4e)
4th Edition -- $29.00 (https://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-4th-Catalyst-Game-Labs/dp/097920478X)
3rd Edition -- $29.99 (https://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-3rd-Jordan-Weisman/dp/1555603718) (Wikipedia lists publication dates of 1998 and 2004, roughly comparable to 3e. Note that it is cheaper both relatively and absolutely than the 3.5 PHB)
2nd Edition -- $8.00 (https://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-Second-Jordan-Weisman/dp/1555601804)

I will freely admit that this is far from the most scientific of methodologies. But this data doesn't look good for the theory that we should expect earlier editions to cost more because of limited supply. It looks like old RPG books are mostly cheaper than new ones, which makes the relative expense of the 3.5 PHB a troublesome data point for someone advancing the theory that 5e is more popular. I would welcome anyone else who has data in this form.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cosi
It looks like old RPG books are mostly cheaper than new ones....

With the exception, not only of the 3.5 PHB, but quite a few of the 3.5 supplements.

I've been watching the prices of 3.5 hardbacks for a number of years, and most if not all of them have been creeping up steadily. I've been kicking myself for years for not picking up more of them when they were relatively cheap. Whether this is simple supply and demand, or a very active subset of the 3.5 player base, it certainly suggests that some people value these a lot more than certain other editions.

As a real-world example, this past weekend I had a table at a science fiction yard sale in my area. It was a great sale; I only wish I'd brought more Klingon Birds-of-Prey and more of everything called "Enterprise," because those really flew.

But in addition to the model kits, I had several RPG books that I had priced a little lower than Amazon third-party sellers. The 3.0 MM2 went fast, and the Pathfinder Villain Codex wasn't far behind. But the 4E Player's Handbook sat out all morning, untouched and unloved, and made the Drive of Shame back to my abode.