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Akennedy
2007-09-06, 08:26 PM
Okay, so, Factotum's seem like a pretty cool class in all respects, pretty versatile and don't lose too much power while becoming versitile. However, I don't see what's so GREAT about them... can anyone fill me in? Please?

goat
2007-09-06, 08:30 PM
Okay, so, Factotum's seem like a pretty cool class in all respects, pretty versatile and don't lose too much power while becoming versitile. However, I don't see what's so GREAT about them... can anyone fill me in? Please?

Basically, you are the ultimate fifth man. If your party expert in X needs help with something, you can provide.

lesserarchangel
2007-09-06, 10:24 PM
Also, if you have sufficient INT and a lot of inspiration points, you can do almost any skill check better than any other build. Doesn't work if you've got many separate checks to make, but that isn't what the class was designed for.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-07, 02:48 AM
What splatbook is this?

Reinboom
2007-09-07, 03:27 AM
Dungeonscape.

Zim
2007-09-07, 07:56 AM
I have a sneaking suspicion that factotum is a 4.0 character building mechanic that's been reverse-engineered for 3.5 to test it out. Reserve feats, which are generally pretty good IMO, fall into this category as well.

ranger89
2007-09-07, 07:59 AM
I have a sneaking suspicion that factotum is a 4.0 character building mechanic that's been reverse-engineered for 3.5 to test it out. Reserve feats, which are generally pretty good IMO, fall into this category as well.

That is rather intriguing and I agree it could be a possibility.

The next time I roll up a new character, it may be a factotum. I'm really curious to see what the class is like in action.

Overlard
2007-09-07, 09:02 AM
I'm playing one at the moment, as a holy-warrior style character.

The diversity is amazing, the other characters will wish they had your bag of tricks. But you'll be envious of them being able to do their job just slightly better than you can (a hell of a lot better, in the case of arcanists).

ImperiousLeader
2007-09-07, 09:29 AM
I'm DMing a Warforged Factotum. It's an interesting class, Inspiration points don't last long in a battle, but they do refresh, so the player never really holds back with them. He managed to oneshot a bombadier beetle by adding INT to both his attack and his damage.

I wouldn't mind trying one, but I think my next PC will be a 4ed, given how little I manage to play.

Zim
2007-09-07, 11:36 AM
I wouldn't mind trying one, but I think my next PC will be a 4ed, given how little I manage to play.

I feel your pain. I've been running AoW for almost a year now and have only played maybe 5 sessions as a PC in another campaign. After a while, the gaming itch becomes a dull ache. :smallfrown:

Nota Biene
2007-09-07, 11:56 AM
That is rather intriguing and I agree it could be a possibility.

The next time I roll up a new character, it may be a factotum. I'm really curious to see what the class is like in action.

Now that you mention it, that sounds right on track. The new D&D podcast over at wizards confirmed that "action points will be core, but they are not your Dad's action points, and are pretty nifty." Since the factotum uses "inspiration points" I would not be surprised at all if that mechanic is in some way related to 4E action points, or perhaps just to the 1/2/3/ times per encounter mechanic.

goat
2007-09-07, 12:04 PM
Now that you mention it, that sounds right on track. The new D&D podcast over at wizards confirmed that "action points will be core, but they are not your Dad's action points, and are pretty nifty." Since the factotum uses "inspiration points" I would not be surprised at all if that mechanic is in some way related to 4E action points, or perhaps just to the 1/2/3/ times per encounter mechanic.

Would make sense with what they've been saying. Giving wizards the factotum ability to cast some spells with inspiration points, while still keeping their spellbook and x/day for the major powers. Means a multiclass wizard/x might have to choose whether to use their inspiration on a spell, or a skill from the other class.

ALOR
2007-09-07, 01:18 PM
Didn't the Giant help write dungeonscape? I wonder if he designed the class?

BardicDuelist
2007-09-07, 03:01 PM
Didn't the Giant help write dungeonscape? I wonder if he designed the class?

No, when WoTC did the interview, the Giant said that it was the other guy's project mostly.

Rex Blunder
2007-09-07, 10:20 PM
There are a couple of rules clarifications I'd like on factota, which make a big difference in how powerful the class is.

The factotum gets to add his int bonus to all strength and dexterity checks, in addition to strength or dexterity. (Int is the factotum's primary stat.)

A trip uses an opposed strength check. So the factotum has a marked advantage in tripping against other classes, I think. I believe this is a legal use of this class ability.

More iffy is the fact that initiative is referred to in the PHB as either "a dexterity check" or "essentially a dexterity check". Is this a legitimate use of this factotum's ability?

Being able to count two stat bonuses towards initiative is pretty powerful, since it's fairly hard to get bonuses to initiative (leaving aside celerity etc). Also consider that at 8th level, the factotum can take an additional standard action. So at 8th level, a factotum is quite likely to win initiative, and is able to essentially take 2 turns before anyone else has gone yet.

Gralamin
2007-09-07, 10:31 PM
There are a couple of rules clarifications I'd like on factota, which make a big difference in how powerful the class is.

The factotum gets to add his int bonus to all strength and dexterity checks, in addition to strength or dexterity. (Int is the factotum's primary stat.)

A trip uses an opposed strength check. So the factotum has a marked advantage in tripping against other classes, I think. I believe this is a legal use of this class ability.

More iffy is the fact that initiative is referred to in the PHB as either "a dexterity check" or "essentially a dexterity check". Is this a legitimate use of this factotum's ability?
Yes, it is.


Being able to count two stat bonuses towards initiative is pretty powerful, since it's fairly hard to get bonuses to initiative (leaving aside celerity etc). Also consider that at 8th level, the factotum can take an additional standard action. So at 8th level, a factotum is quite likely to win initiative, and is able to essentially take 2 turns before anyone else has gone yet.

It is indeed powerful.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-08, 02:09 PM
I just read up on this, and I must say I find it an utterly ridiculous class. Especially the parts where being clever makes you jump farther, where you can take more actions because you're so smart, and where gods are just assumed to listen to cheesy opportunists. I would immediately veto it for its sheer ludicrousness, and I do hope fourth edition isn't anything remotely resembling this, or else I won't be buying it.

The problem Wizards has is that they think too much in terms of pure mechanics, rather than in terms of what makes sense (e.g. the "heal your ally by hitting your enemy" cleric maneuver). I suspect they inherited this train of thought from Magic: the Gathering, by moving MtG designers onto D&D projects.

Deepblue706
2007-09-08, 02:22 PM
I suspect they inherited this train of thought from Magic: the Gathering, by moving MtG designers onto D&D projects.

I think that is more than likely true.

MrNexx
2007-09-08, 03:07 PM
and where gods are just assumed to listen to cheesy opportunists.

You see, this is where I think you're a bit off base. You're assuming there's no piety involved here... you're thinking Benny from the Mummy, going through tons of holy symbols in mutually exclusive faiths, hoping to ward off Imhotep with ONE of them.

That's not how it is in a polytheistic world. Most gods are not exclusive.

When going to sea, you pray to Umberlee. When going to war, you pray to Tempus. When facing a new day, you pray to Lathander. You may have a deity who watches over your life in general, whose principles guide your daily actions, but you still pray to the deity appropriate to your situation.

While the fluff talks about them carrying lots of holy items, the fact is that they need only one to do this... but a reverent one might carry several, to offer prayers to deities at appropriate times.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-08, 03:47 PM
you're thinking Benny from the Mummy, going through tons of holy symbols in mutually exclusive faiths, ... While the fluff talks about them carrying lots of holy items,

Precisely.

Either the gods listen to everybody, or the gods listen to priests. The gods do not listen to priests and people-who-want-to-do-everything, but not to anybody else.

Solo
2007-09-08, 03:57 PM
Chameleons and Ur priests can do clericy things without being "priets", iirc

Fax Celestis
2007-09-08, 03:59 PM
Precisely.

Either the gods listen to everybody, or the gods listen to priests. The gods do not listen to priests and people-who-want-to-do-everything, but not to anybody else.

The Gods do listen to everyone.

The_Snark
2007-09-08, 04:03 PM
The Gods do listen to everyone.

Yes. It just requires training to be able to cast spells. You can, in fact, cast divine spells without praying to any deity at all (without being an ur-priest).

Factotums, I suppose, have just enough training to be able to wrangle the occasional healing effect.

Machete
2007-09-08, 04:05 PM
his class is just what I've been looking for to help recreate Jarod from the 90s show "The Pretender."

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-08, 04:19 PM
Precisely.

Either the gods listen to everybody, or the gods listen to priests. The gods do not listen to priests and people-who-want-to-do-everything, but not to anybody else.

Actually, they do. In a polytheistic culture you pray to which ever deity applies to your current situation. Look at the Greek/Roman culture of worship. As an individual (usually due to where you live) you would have a patron deity who affects your outlook on life such as Athena for Athenians. But if an Athenian needs passage over the sea, he prays to Poseidon for a safe passage and after the passage, pays homage through some sort of ceremony such as sacrifice. Each god has a specialty (read: portfolio) and expects to be recognized for his power in that aspect. So, really it is an insult to not pray to the sea god before sailing. The god's power is a function of the number of beings who worship and pay homage to him so merely praying to a god increasing his power (ever so slightly, but it adds up). In fact a greater deity can be at that power level even with a handful of worshipers (those truly devout) if he has an immense number for recognize and respect him. For example, in one of my campaigns there was a greater deity of protection. He had very few worshipers since his portfolio did not uphold a certain lifestyle, but every warrior, armorsmith, and mason paid respect to him to uphold their fortifications. Even mages who crafted protection based items asked for his blessing.

MrNexx
2007-09-08, 04:20 PM
Either the gods listen to everybody, or the gods listen to priests.

Who says the gods don't listen to everybody?

Priests have the gods personal cell number.
Everybody else has to dial information and deal with a machine.
Factotums, at least, have a direct 1800 number they can use.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-08, 04:28 PM
Actually, they do. In a polytheistic culture you pray to which ever deity applies to your current situation.

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's what I meant with "either gods listen to everybody". It would be very cool to have a setting where the people pray and make sacrifices to most of the pantheon as appropriate. It does not, however, make sense that one particular obscure class (other than priests) gets bonuses for praying like this, and every other individual in the world does not.

(edit) I'm also not too fond of Ur-priests and priests-of-a-concept-rather-than-a-deity, but flavor-wise they still make more sense than factotums.

0oo0
2007-09-08, 04:47 PM
So, really it is an insult to not pray to the sea god before sailing.

And thanks to Greek mythology, we know how much gods liked being insulted. A great number of the trials in the myths seem to have been caused my angering one god or another, and simply being favored of one god didn't mean you could ignore the rest. A proactive polytheistic pantheon could make for a fun campaign, if the PC didn't mind dealing with god level powers, and didn't feel too railroaded.

Overlard
2007-09-08, 04:47 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that. That's what I meant with "either gods listen to everybody". It would be very cool to have a setting where the people pray and make sacrifices to most of the pantheon as appropriate. It does not, however, make sense that one particular obscure class (other than priests) gets bonuses for praying like this, and every other individual in the world does not.

(edit) I'm also not too fond of Ur-priests and priests-of-a-concept-rather-than-a-deity, but flavor-wise they still make more sense than factotums.
I take it you're not a fan of UMD either then? Especially with divine spells?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-08, 05:01 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that. That's what I meant with "either gods listen to everybody". It would be very cool to have a setting where the people pray and make sacrifices to most of the pantheon as appropriate. It does not, however, make sense that one particular obscure class (other than priests) gets bonuses for praying like this, and every other individual in the world does not.

Clerics get more from praying like this than others. So do Druids. And Paladins. And Crusaders. And Consecrated Harriers. And Favored Souls. And Divine Champions. Why shouldn't Factotums?

Kurald Galain
2007-09-08, 05:07 PM
I take it you're not a fan of UMD either then? Especially with divine spells?

Interesting point. I have no problems with UMD as it applies to arcane (or, I suppose, psionic) devices. Most magical items (in my setting, at least) are arcane. (tangent: come to think of it, weren't all magical items arcane prior to 3rd edition?)

Yes, I would houserule that a divine magical item was dedicated to a particular deity, and would not require an UMD roll - it'd either work automatically (in most cases), or fail automatically (if your intentions were radically wrong as perceived by said deity).



Clerics get more from praying like this than others. So do Druids. And Paladins. And Crusaders. And Consecrated Harriers. And Favored Souls. And Divine Champions. Why shouldn't Factotums?
Because they're all dedicated worshippers, and the factotum is not. If a factotum can get "more" from praying, why can't a bard?

The_Snark
2007-09-08, 05:11 PM
They have a little bit of training in everything, including divine spellcasting. Being a cleric is not just a matter of being really devout; training is necessary for the spells.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-08, 05:22 PM
Because they're all dedicated worshippers, and the factotum is not. If a factotum can get "more" from praying, why can't a bard?

Have you not seen the Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) , then?

Reel On, Love
2007-09-08, 05:44 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that. That's what I meant with "either gods listen to everybody". It would be very cool to have a setting where the people pray and make sacrifices to most of the pantheon as appropriate. It does not, however, make sense that one particular obscure class (other than priests) gets bonuses for praying like this, and every other individual in the world does not.

(edit) I'm also not too fond of Ur-priests and priests-of-a-concept-rather-than-a-deity, but flavor-wise they still make more sense than factotums.

The Factotum doesn't just pray, he actually does something with divine energies. It's a trick no one else can do.

Besides, as paladins and clerics of a cause demonstrate, it's perfectly possible to tap divine energy without going through a deity.

jameswilliamogle
2007-09-08, 06:33 PM
One thing that DM's need to be wary of is an online feat called Font of Inspiration (here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606). It gives the factotem a lot more durability in combat. Be wary: a L9 Human Factotem w/ FoI 5 times will have a ton of IP's to spend every combat.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-08, 06:35 PM
One thing that DM's need to be wary of is an online feat called Font of Inspiration (here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606). It gives the factotem a lot more durability in combat. Be wary!

What's to be wary of? The factotum is otherwise rather *under*whelming in combat. Those IP run out very quickly. Taking Font of Inspiration enough to be useful (3 or 4 times) blows through your feats (for example, you might have Expertise/Imp. Trip, thanks to your getting your INT bonus to trip checks, but now you can't) in exchange for the ability to actually do useful stuff every round. It's hardly something to fear.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-08, 06:49 PM
One thing that DM's need to be wary of is an online feat called Font of Inspiration (here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606). It gives the factotem a lot more durability in combat. Be wary: a L9 Human Factotem w/ FoI 5 times will have a ton of IP's to spend every combat.

I can't get the link to work, what does the feat do?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-08, 06:52 PM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) is the corrected link.

jameswilliamogle
2007-09-08, 07:42 PM
At L9 w/ only FoI as a feat taking 6 standard actions round 1 after winning initiative is pretty bork, imo... Mainly b/c the same character could get Int to hit and damage and mix it up killing baddie after baddie as necessary. Some people think it balanced the factotem, but I think its too powerful... why I suggested DMs be wary.

Machete
2007-09-09, 12:46 AM
Compare it to the magic juice of wizards.

Doesn't look so powerful now, does it? This makes factotums more narcoleptic than wizards.

Still fun though.

Zincorium
2007-09-09, 01:13 AM
his class is just what I've been looking for to help recreate Jarod from the 90s show "The Pretender."

I freaking loved that show.

Add in chameleon for a second level of shiftable traits, and while you can't outshine any one person at their area of expertise, you can't be stopped in a campaign designed for solo play.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-09, 02:07 AM
At L9 w/ only FoI as a feat taking 6 standard actions round 1 after winning initiative is pretty bork, imo... Mainly b/c the same character could get Int to hit and damage and mix it up killing baddie after baddie as necessary. Some people think it balanced the factotem, but I think its too powerful... why I suggested DMs be wary.

Except that he needs to spend 1 IP to get INT to hit and another to get INT to damage with each attack--that makes 2 IP per attack in a full attack, plus 2 more for each extra standard action. Even if you have five Font of Inspiration feats, you're gonna run dry pretty fast... and those actions? They're not that great. Even with INT to AB and damage, you don't hit that accurately or at all hard.
It's really not as powerful as you think.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-09, 03:42 AM
and those actions? They're not that great. Even with INT to AB and damage, you don't hit that accurately or at all hard. It's really not as powerful as you think.

Since they're extra standard actions, can't you use them for spellcasting?

Reel On, Love
2007-09-09, 03:50 AM
Since they're extra standard actions, can't you use them for spellcasting?

Yeah, but Factotums have a scant handful of spells/day, one of each spell, generally at two or three levels lower than equivalent-level casters can cast. Not much of an issue.

Akennedy
2007-09-09, 06:49 AM
May a factotum take reserve feats?

Overlard
2007-09-09, 07:55 AM
May a factotum take reserve feats?
No.

This phrase is padding.