Dealing with Extreme Nova

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm DMing Rise of the Runelords, and one player is playing an alchemist. He is pretty much the classic munchkin, with the exception that he helps others build their characters and doesn't play his most-optimized builds (and in one case that I'm aware of actually retired a character because of how powerful she was). None of this is a problem. The player is a lot of fun to play with and DM for, and his optimization usually doesn't affect the game enough to notice.

That's not the case here. On two occasions, he has dropped three bombs (modified with unstable accelerants and catalysts) on the same boss-tier enemy, in each case incapacitating it outright. The first time (Pappy Kreeg), it seemed reasonable; it requires a good chunk of the character's daily resources plus a few hundred gold, and Pappy was really just a sub-boss anyways.
The second was Black Magga. For those who don't know, Black Magga's CR is fully six levels above the PCs' character levels; while she was weakened with a decent chunk of damage and tactics which failed to make use of some of her more potent abilities, dealing ~2/3 of her full HP in one round is...startling. (Even if it only worked that well because bombs happen to bypass all of her defensive abilities.)
My first question is if everything's going according to the rules. Like, is there a rule that you can't mix stuff into more than one bomb per turn or something else that breaks this combo? My second question is if there should be something breaking the combo, if a player consistently one-shotting bosses this way is a problem. It seems like it robs other players of agency and stomps tension flat. I'm guessing the answer to both of these questions is "yes," though, so I'm going to focus on the third.

What should I do about this? I obviously don't want to just come in and dole out arbitrary nerfs until the character isn't useful (especially since he's not even close to a problem 90% of the time), but I don't want to leave a major problem unaddressed. Should I implement a rule about how much he can mix at once, or nerf the specific items? Should I increase the cost to the point that it takes a significant amount of resources to pull the trick off, and if so how much is that? Should I just have enemies start preparing defenses against fire, and if so how do I signpost this? (And what defenses are available that might work?)

[Venger]

if your player occasionally retires characters for being too powerful, then clearly he's amenable to gentleman's agreement. before your next game, talk to him privately, tell him how you feel, and tell him to take it a little easier on your bosses. my gm once did this to me after I used shivering touch against one of his dragons. he wasn't very good at optimization and didn't want to turn it into a war of escalation so said while he didn't feel like outright banning the spell was necessary, could I please not use it to nullify boss encounters? obviously, I didn't have a problem with that, so from now on that's how I acted, and everyone was happy.

do not approach an out of game problem with an in-game solution. if you make everyone in the game suddenly immune to fire, he'll just change energy types and assume that it was an in-game obstacle to be overcome or similar.

[Extra Anchovies]

Bombs are unstable
unstable accelerant can be used as part of creating a bombhttp://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/210/119/9b3.png

Why does this 'unstable accelerant' item even exist? What reason is there for "alchemist bomb but MORE BOMB" to be a thing at all, let alone a thing available through use of downtime and wealth? If alchemist is garbage, fix alchemist without requiring players to jump through hoops and dig through every sourcebook to not be garbage. If alchemist is not garbage - and indeed alchemist is fine - don't buff the alchemist. Paizo, y u do dis?

I'm not chiding you or any of your players, mind. This is Paizo content running into its own power creep. I don't know of anything called a "catalyst" which interacts with alchemist bombs but I'm guessing it's something in the same vein.

What do you mean, though, by "has dropped three bombs"? Is this happening over the course of three rounds? Or is the alchemist at least level 15 with Fast Bombs? Bombs can't be put in a bag and all set off simultaneously:

Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack.

[zlefin]

in order to tell whether the combo has legality issues we'd need more precision;
like the full list of each ability involved that the player is using. preferably with a note as to its source when not obvious.

[GreatWyrmGold]

if your player occasionally retires characters for being too powerful, then clearly he's amenable to gentleman's agreement. before your next game, talk to him privately, tell him how you feel, and tell him to take it a little easier on your bosses.
I kinda don't want to just say "Don't use the core ability of your character to its fullest extent". I intend to talk with him about this, but I want an actual solution to propose when I do so.



I don't know of anything called a "catalyst" which interacts with alchemist bombs but I'm guessing it's something in the same vein.
checks notes
checks Google
Incendiary catalyst. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Incendiary%20ca talyst) Not sure how he mixes it into bombs, but that sounds like something alchemists can do with the right feat or whatever.


What do you mean, though, by "has dropped three bombs"? Is this happening over the course of three rounds? Or is the alchemist at least level 15 with Fast Bombs? Bombs can't be put in a bag and all set off simultaneously:
...I'm not sure, actually.
Sounds like step 1 should be "figure out how his character works". I kinda assumed that anyone with decent understanding of how Pathfinder alchemists worked (not me) would be able to put 2 and 2 together, but apparently not.

[Venger]

I kinda don't want to just say "Don't use the core ability of your character to its fullest extent". I intend to talk with him about this, but I want an actual solution to propose when I do so.

Assuming the players powers all check out by raw, which you assume to be the case, and you don't just want to fiat him out of using his powers (which obviously I don't recommend), don't want to cheat by suddenly making enemies all immune to the stuff he invested character resources in (which obviously again is a good decision, don't do this) and don't want to ask him to take it easy on you, what sort of advice would you like, exactly? It seems like you already dismissed all your options.

People who are good at optimization are ok with not using their characters' powers to the fullest extent generally speaking. If I get tapped for a beer and pretzels game, I'm not going to come with priya statted up. let the player know your expectations, and from your description of him, he'll probably cut you some slack.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Assuming the players powers all check out by raw, which you assume to be the case, and you don't just want to fiat him out of using his powers (which obviously I don't recommend), don't want to cheat by suddenly making enemies all immune to the stuff he invested character resources in (which obviously again is a good decision, don't do this) and don't want to ask him to take it easy on you, what sort of advice would you like, exactly? It seems like you already dismissed all your options.
Um, yes, you have described the problem I am facing. None of the options I could think of looked good, so I came here. I was kinda hoping someone would point out some flaw in the build, or point out an option I had missed, or convinced me I was worrying too much about something. I kinda figured someone with a different point of view and/or better understanding of the system than I would be able to offer some kind of advice.

[Venger]

Can you post the character's build, so we'll know if all his options are legal? I can't claim to be an authority on pf, but I know Extra Anchovies plays it, and from what you've posted, I don't think we have enough info to see if your player is cheating.

[Zerathize]

From what I can tell, unstable accelerant can be used with every bomb with fire for +1d6. Now the catalyst. It's a touch attack in its own right and gives the creature fire vulnerability for 1 rd. Now to hit with three bombs, for no save, he'd have to have 4 attacks/rd. Rapid shot and two weapon fighting give 3 right out the gate. Add in fast bombs and haste and it sounds legit... But, incendiary catalyst requires him waste/use his first attack for the possibility of 50 percent extra damage for the other attacks.

Incendiary catalyst is 40gp so 20 to make... Unstable accelerant is 25gp, so 12.5 to make for each bomb.

Yeah requires at least alchemists level eight for fast bombs discovery though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I've texted with the player and figured out how he does the nova thing. He has the Fast Bombs discovery, obviously (and he was level nine before the Magga thing), and the Bombadier archetype, which (among other abilities) lets you add an alchemal thing to your weapon as a swift action. And bombs count as weapons. So it all seems to check out.

I'm still not sure what solution would work best.

[icefractal]

Not super-familiar with the alchemist, but are there any good defensive/utility/debuff options he could take instead?

"Just ignore some of your abilities" would rub most people the wrong way, but "Respec to be less offense-focused" is less of a nerf.