MI picks for a Paladin, what to take?

[Aleister VII]

You see I'm going to make a Variant human paladin and decide that Magic initiate can bring some utility to the table but I'm not sure about what cantrips and spell take.

Light would be good to a human without darkvision, mage hand help in many situations, minor illusion has potentially unlimited uses, Eldritch blast give me a somewhat reliable ranged attack, guidance is spamable as hell and for level one spells find familiar is interesting, according to some, you can spam the Help action of your familiar and that would be quite helpful... bad puns apart the familiar can also scout, retrieve little items and again according to some you can make it grab something dismiss it to it's pocket dimension and summon it again along with whatever item it grabbed, the help thing sounds somewhat reasonable but I'm not sure about this one... but in any case having a familiar is fun, then there's Hex that adds more damage but it's once per day so I would have to save it for the bosses or big battles as I can pass it to another enemy when the one who was hexed is killed.
I can't think in another good level 1 spells that stays useful at higher levels and casting it just once per day don't hinders it even more x.x

So... suggestions?

BTW, I'm aiming to make this paladin a melee powerhouse but also a thank with heavy armor and shield, my spells will be most likely utility or buffs and I'll smite like crazy, so far I think I'll take the devotion oath for the holy Knight theme or the ancient one for it's hard to kill stuffs and it's more neutral approach to paladinhood.

I'll start from the scratch as a level 1 PC, so that's why low and mid levels are important to me and seriously, most campaigns ends before reaching level 15 or so.

Edit: stats will be 16 strength, 10 Dexterity, 14/16 Constitution, 8 intelligence, 10/12 Wisdom and 16 charisma or something similar, I'll maximize strength as soon as possible but Charisma will stay as a 16 as far I'm concerned, that's why I'm looking for utility spells that don't rely on my casting stat too much.

[nickl_2000]

Do you know the starting stats that you will be playing? It makes a difference in the suggestions of cantrips due to spell attacks, DC, and availability to useful classes

[DarkKnightJin]

Find Familiar is always a good pick, as are Light(because Darkvision), Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion. And that's only stuff that doesn't really rely on your casting stat. Guidance is always helpful.
Eldritch Blast or Fire Bolt would be the 'top' ranged cantrips. You could also go for something like Toll the Dead or Chill Touch, if you want to give it a little darker feel.

[Arkhios]

btw, if you're talking about Magic Initiate feat, your topic "MA picks for a Paladin, what to take?" was a bit misleading, as I thought this thread was about "Martial Adept picks for a Paladin" :P

Just saying, you might want to change the A to I. (Just like I did. Edit your first post and change the title)

[MagneticKitty]

Another level 1 spell you might consider is feather fall. It can be a real lifesaver.
I'd go with that or the familiar.

[nickl_2000]

Alright so without knowing stats, I'm going to assumes that your stats kind of stink for the MI class and make a suggestion based on that.

spell order is my personal thoughts on best to least useful


MI: Wizard
Cantrip
Mage Hand - As you said
Mold Earth - This is an amazing utility cantrip
Light - Seeing is a good thing
Gust - Could be useful for both utility and control
Control Water - Great for many things in water, but pretty situational.

Level 1 Spell
Shield - +5 AC as a reaction once per day. Yes please
Find Familiar - A friend to scout for you
Identify - Find all about that item
Feather Fall - Situation, but dang is it good in those situations



MI: Druid
Cantrip
Guidance - You will use it almost constantly
Mold Earth - This is an amazing utility cantrip
Produce Flame - Light and a ranged attack
Gust - Could be useful for both utility and control
Control Water - Great for many things in water, but pretty situational.

Level 1 Spell
Healing Word
Detect Magic
Longstrider
Jump
Speak with Animals
Goodberry



MI: Cleric
Cantrip
Guidance - You will use it almost constantly
Light - Seeing is a good thing
Spare the Dying - self explainitory
Mending - fix all the things
Thaumaturgy - Still thematic for a Paladin

Level 1 Spell
Shield of Faith (see bless)
Healing Word
Bless (note this also means that you always have bless prepared as a paladin spell)
Detect Magic
Ceremony

[Grod_The_Giant]

Even with Help cheese aside, Find Familiar is pretty much in a league of its own in terms of opening up new possibilities. If you nab that, you'll need to stick to utility cantrips for the rest (because your Int will be bad). I suggest picking two of Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, and Shape Water-- those are probably the three most interesting.

On the other hand, Eldritch Blast is an amazing ranged attack, something that the Paladin often struggles with. I'd fill out the other cantrip slot with Minor Illusion, and...oh... Charm Person and Comprehend Languages are both nice for a high-cha social character, Hex 1/day will always be a nice damage boost, and Unseen Servant is sort of Find Familiar lite.

Sorcerer is your other option for picking up a ranged attack. Fire Bolt, Frostbite, and Toll the Dead are all decent options there, and you can pick any of the aforementioned utility cantrips. For a level 1 spell, both Charm and Comprehend Languages are possibilities for a socialite, as is Disguise Self, and Shield will probably save your life on a regular basis.

[Aleister VII]

Fixed the title x.x I don't know why I always calls it "magic affinity" instead of magic initiate but whatever...

I also add how would look my stats with strength being my main one, charisma will also start high but I won't invest any ASI on it, intelligence is the dump stat and Dex and wisdom will be a 10, maybe 12 on wisdom since I like perception a 14 in constitution is enough IMO but I'll pump it with any remaining ASI after max. Strength.

Ahem... feather fall looks too situational for me and Paladines already get bless so I don't think it's worth taking and there's shield... I love shield but the feat says that I can just cast it once per day, if my DM allows to cast it with my slots that would be awesome If not it can still save my ass once but I'm not quite sure yet, so my best bet is mage hand, light and find familiar all of then super useful and my low int don't get in the way at all.

However I would really miss guidance x.x isn't weird that druids don't get find familiar?

Edit: I forget about minor illusion, I'll take it any day for any class that has access to it, so minor illusion, Light since I lack darkvision and find familiar.
I would also mention mold earth and shape water but I think that those two are better in the arsenal of a sorcerer or another full caster class.

[Protato]

Paladins are hurting for a decent ranged attack, so I'd take Sorcerer and get: Firebolt/Ray of Frost/Chill Touch for an attack Cantrip. Firebolt does the most damage but Ray of Frost has good utility, and while the Necrotic might be odd on a Paladin, the anti-recovery is useful, and the imposing disadvantage on undead is flavorful. Undead are a common enemy type in campaigns too, so while you might not run into any depending on your game, the odds of fighting a skeleton or zombie horde is high enough to take into consideration. Furthermore, if you don't take two damage spells, you should take some utility, and I recommend Message, Light, Prestidigitation, or Mold Earth. Message is good if you're in a social situation and need to say something without the other party hearing it, Light is good in dungeons for obvious reasons, Prestidigitation gives more roleplaying opportunities, and Mold Earth is basically a magic super-shovel, you can surely find a use or two for that. For the levelled spell, I'd recommend Shield since it sounds like you'll primarily be involved in melee and your AC will be important. You don't need another attack spell or utility spell really, if you have a good ranged attack cantrip and good melee you're about set.

[MrStabby]

Not sure if it is helpful, but if you are wanting Magic Initiate to "bring some utility to the table" you might also be interested in ritual caster. It could provide you with find familiar as well if you went wizard.

[Aleister VII]

Ritual caster gives me much more options but those options need an hour or so to prepared, it's good for a full caster like a sorcerer but what I'm looking for is an instant, at will utility just what a cantrip is.

Light to deal with the lack of darkvision, mage hand to grab things from afar, minor illusion for... for whatever you can come up with, guidance is plainly awesome and spamable and so on...

The thing is that I want an effect that I don't need to prepare or set since you don't always has the time to prepare a ritual like in the middle of a fight or in a social situation.

[CTurbo]

Find Familiar for sure

I'd take 1 ranged attack cantrip and probably Minor Illusion or Light if you don't have darkvision

[djreynolds]

Honestly, you could just multiclass a level with sorcerer. Way easier.

[Angelalex242]

Sorcadin is a very well loved multiclass. And a much better decision than magic initiate.

[CTurbo]

I don't agree. Not every build has to be a multi class. Magic Initiate is a great feat for a Paladin.

[Citan]

You see I'm going to make a Variant human paladin and decide that Magic initiate can bring some utility to the table but I'm not sure about what cantrips and spell take.

Light would be good to a human without darkvision, mage hand help in many situations, minor illusion has potentially unlimited uses, Eldritch blast give me a somewhat reliable ranged attack, guidance is spamable as hell and for level one spells find familiar is interesting, according to some, you can spam the Help action of your familiar and that would be quite helpful... bad puns apart the familiar can also scout, retrieve little items and again according to some you can make it grab something dismiss it to it's pocket dimension and summon it again along with whatever item it grabbed, the help thing sounds somewhat reasonable but I'm not sure about this one... but in any case having a familiar is fun, then there's Hex that adds more damage but it's once per day so I would have to save it for the bosses or big battles as I can pass it to another enemy when the one who was hexed is killed.
I can't think in another good level 1 spells that stays useful at higher levels and casting it just once per day don't hinders it even more x.x

So... suggestions?

BTW, I'm aiming to make this paladin a melee powerhouse but also a thank with heavy armor and shield, my spells will be most likely utility or buffs and I'll smite like crazy, so far I think I'll take the devotion oath for the holy Knight theme or the ancient one for it's hard to kill stuffs and it's more neutral approach to paladinhood.

I'll start from the scratch as a level 1 PC, so that's why low and mid levels are important to me and seriously, most campaigns ends before reaching level 15 or so.

Edit: stats will be 16 strength, 10 Dexterity, 14/16 Constitution, 8 intelligence, 10/12 Wisdom and 16 charisma or something similar, I'll maximize strength as soon as possible but Charisma will stay as a 16 as far I'm concerned, that's why I'm looking for utility spells that don't rely on my casting stat too much.
Hi!

If you're looking for utility then I'd suggest Wizard: Find Familiar because once per day is all you need anyways, with Shield being an interesting second choice if you want an emergency button or Comprehend Languages equally interesting as an utility, especially if you'll be the party face.
Mage Hand can be used for all kind of things, disarming traps, grabbing keys, helping you don your armor quicker (subjected to DM), tiggling people (effect depending on DM though ^^) etc...
Mold Earth is of the same nature, allowing you to quickly craft half-walls to protect you from vision, create somewhat confortable beds (provided you don't move too much at night XD), quickly bury things, etc...
Note that if you not interested in Find Familiar, then Sorcerer might as well be your pick in case you'd want one day to dip/multiclass into it, since he has all other cantrips and spells suggested.

[Arkhios]

I don't agree. Not every build has to be a multi class. Magic Initiate is a great feat for a Paladin.

This. There's always a big "opportunity cost" if or when you multiclass.

Unless you can be 100% certain that the game you play in won't reach 20th level (and beyond; the game doesn't have to end when you reach maximum level), multiclassing may be a bad idea. 20th level class feature for paladins is absolutely amazing.

[JellyPooga]

MI Druid for Guidance, Thorn Whip and Fog Cloud is my go-to choice for a melee guy like a Paladin.

[Arkhios]

MI Druid for Guidance, Thorn Whip and Fog Cloud is my go-to choice for a melee guy like a Paladin.

...even considering that you'd still use Wisdom to calculate effects for druid spells?

Thorn Whip is a spell attack, after all, and relies on your wisdom score to determine how well you hit because it's still a druid spell.
While you don't have to meet any requisite ability score value to be able to select which class you choose the spells from, the feat doesn't absolve the relevant ability score for those spells.

That said, whether you have a decent wisdom score or not, no one is stopping you if you are fine with the results.

[djreynolds]

MI is a good pick, but sorcerer is right there and. Its a full caster, and you can use those spells whenever.

Wizard is great, good spell selection

I love thorn whip from druid.... no save.

But MI is fine, multiclassing is so easy to do.... bard, warlock, and sorcerer.

If you take MI, I would grab a charisma based caster so that cantrip hits

[Arkhios]

MI is a good pick, but sorcerer is right there and. Its a full caster, and you can use those spells whenever.

Wizard is great, good spell selection

I love thorn whip from druid.... no save.

But MI is fine, multiclassing is so easy to do.... bard, warlock, and sorcerer.

If you take MI, I would grab a charisma based caster so that cantrip hits

Thorn Whip is great ... if you hit. That's just as big if as a save.

Anyway, it's always worth saying that neither multiclassing or feats are a given. They're not always allowed, and even if one was, the other might not be.

[djreynolds]

The OP seems to be leaning to towards warlock, its charisma based so its a good choice.

Grab an attack cantrip, which he could use as dex is low.

To me, MI, for paladin is expensive.... I would just grab something else for a feat.

But light is a good cantrip for a human, and so is find familiar. Guidance is nice as well

[JellyPooga]

...even considering that you'd still use Wisdom to calculate effects for druid spells?

Thorn Whip is a spell attack, after all, and relies on your wisdom score to determine how well you hit because it's still a druid spell.
While you don't have to meet any requisite ability score value to be able to select which class you choose the spells from, the feat doesn't absolve the relevant ability score for those spells.

That said, whether you have a decent wisdom score or not, no one is stopping you if you are fine with the results.

I normally spring for Wis 14 on most melee builds due to lack of Wis save proficiency, which is decent enough for most purposes, but for the OPs character (Wis 12 and Paladin, so Wis prof), maybe Thorn Whip isn't the best choice, admittedly.

I'd still advise going MI Druid, if only for Fog Cloud; it's a great get-out-of-jail card and has plenty of utility aside from that. Add Guidance and your choice of other cantrip and you can't really go wrong.

[Arkhios]

I normally spring for Wis 14 on most melee builds due to lack of Wis save proficiency, which is decent enough for most purposes, but for the OPs character (Wis 12 and Paladin, so Wis prof), maybe Thorn Whip isn't the best choice, admittedly.

I'd still advise going MI Druid, if only for Fog Cloud; it's a great get-out-of-jail card and has plenty of utility aside from that. Add Guidance and your choice of other cantrip and you can't really go wrong.

Yeah, ok... Shillelagh is actually pretty good cantrip, even if you didn't utilize your wisdom with it. It's still an at-will magic weapon, and you can keep attacking with strength as normal. As written, shillelagh allows you to attack with wisdom, but it doesn't say you have to.


My personal favorite is Bard, though.

Light, Vicious Mockery, and Animal Friendship are great, and if able to combine with War Caster, Vicious Mockery is much better than booming blade, even.

If you want more BOOM, Thunderclap is a bard cantrip, and even a 1st-level Thunderwave can be incredibly great in the right circumstances.

[Davrix]

for the DPR / utility

Wizard

Cantrips
Booming blade
Light

Lv - 1
Find Familiar

FF is hands down the most useful thing in 5e, from scouting to the help action. It can do a lot even if you only get to cast it once per day. And if its still up from the day before you can use that extra lv 1 spell slot to smite with.

Booming blade is like a must have for most paladins, especially conquest as it offers you some real good at will CC and Light is just useful unless your DM doesn't track darkness that much.

[djreynolds]

OP, charisma is a key stat for you.

It affects your aura of protection, and this affects your team.

And your spell save. Casting hold person on an enemy is huge if your teammates can take advantage of it

Also if you are a devotion paladin, your charisma affects your to hit with sacred weapon

IMO, very humbly, I would grab another feat that you are looking forward to getting and later at say level 4 or level 8 grab magic initiate then.

You may decide at level 8, this feat or this stat increase is more important.... than find familiar which another party member is sure to have. Any party member could cast light on your weapon as well... its not concentration.

Human variant really needs, IMO, to grab a feat they can really use now. I'm saying PAM, sentinel, or GWM or even HAM.

PAM will give you BA you only use for smite spells, and another chance to land a smite

GWM's +10 is huge, and your sacred weapon and the bless spell makes landing these strikes too easy

HAM is better than we think, most damage is not magical out there

If ones of these feats were going to be in play for you down the line... take them at 1st, and then later decide if you really need magic initiate

Your teammates can focus on ranged attacks as you move in to fight, the casters can do ritual spells. Your a paladin, you have enough on your plate already.

[thoroughlyS]

Not sure if it is helpful, but if you are wanting Magic Initiate to "bring some utility to the table" you might also be interested in ritual caster. It could provide you with find familiar as well if you went wizard.

Ritual caster gives me much more options but those options need an hour or so to prepared, it's good for a full caster like a sorcerer but what I'm looking for is an instant, at will utility just what a cantrip is.

Light to deal with the lack of darkvision, mage hand to grab things from afar, minor illusion for... for whatever you can come up with, guidance is plainly awesome and spamable and so on...

The thing is that I want an effect that I don't need to prepare or set since you don't always has the time to prepare a ritual like in the middle of a fight or in a social situation.
If you want find familiar, then Ritual Caster is the way to go. If you take it with Magic Initiate, you can only get it once per long rest. Rituals also only add 10 minutes to the casting time, so they can be more accessible than you give them credit for (find familiar is what has an hour long casting time).

You can also get more out-of-combat utility rituals like alarm, or identify.

[DarkKnightJin]

if OP is open to multiclass, then picking up a level of 2 of Warlock for Eldritch Blast and something else is great. Go Celestial for a 'free' set of Light and Sacred Flame, too. On top of having that Healing Light pool of d6 healing on a Bonus Action.
Hexblade is always a solid pick for a Sword and Board pally, too.

For Sorcerer, I like to go with Divine Soul, because it just fits thematically. Also, 3 first level spells that are always 'prepared', on top of 4 cantrips from the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists..
I tend to grab Bless for the Alignment spell, and then Healing Word and Guiding Bolt for the 2 picks from the Cleric or Sorc list.
Might pick up EB through something like Spell Sniper at some point if I really want it.