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Grod_The_Giant
2018-06-01, 10:23 AM
Was reading a thread in the main Roleplaying forum with someone's first attempt at boiling D&D down to a more freeform system. And while I've got what is (at least in my mind) a very good rules-light of my own in STaRS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361270-STaRS-the-Simple-TAbletop-Roleplaying-System-5-0&p=17752487) (Coming soon to a DriveThrurRPG near you!), I started musing about an even simpler game. Less polished, less structured, but even easier to learn--especially for kids. So, without further ado...


The Super-Simple Tabletop Roleplaying Game (SuperSTaRS)
The Basics
Characters have six Abilities, telling us what they're good at. Each one has a rating of -1 (Bad), 0 (Okay), 1 (Good), or 2 (Great)

Strong: How big and tough and healthy you are. You can use it to fight people up close.
Fast: How quick and agile you are, and how fast you can think. You can use it to shoot people from a distance.
Sneaky: How good you are at hiding and lying and tricking people.
Alert: How good you at noticing things and reading people.
Stubborn: How strong your mind is, and how hard it is to change it. You can use it to fight people with magic.

Whenever you try to do something hard, you roll 1d6 and add whatever Ability the GM thinks is best. If you're trying to do something to another character, they roll the same Ability, and if your number is equal or higher, you win and do what you were trying to do--of, if you're both trying to do the same thing, like playing tug-of-war, roll again on a tie. If you're just trying to do something in the world, you have to roll a 4 or more to win. If you try to do something too hard, though, the GM can say no--no matter how hard you try, you can't jump to the moon!

If things are going really well for you, you might get a Good Die. You can roll your normal die and a Good Die at the same time and use whichever one is higher. On the other hand, if things are going badly, you might get a Bad Die. You roll that at the same time as your normal die too, but you have to use whichever is lower. If the game gets crazy, you might have both Good and Bad dice at the same time. If that happens, ignore them all and just roll normally. The GM can give you one Good Die or one Bad Die whenever you make a roll, depending on if they think it should be especially easy or hard.

Making a Guy
You start with either one Great and one Good ability or three Good abilities. They also get three Specials, which can be either a Skill or a Power. Skills mean you're very good at doing something like hiding or sword-fighting, and get a Good Die whenever you try. Powers mean you have a special ability no-one else does, like being able to fly or control fire. Powers can't do everything, though! If you try to do something hard with your Power, the GM can still make you roll or tell you "that's too hard."

If you want, you can also pick one Bad ability. If you do, you can start with one extra Special.

Fighting
Everyone has three points of Health. They also get extra Health equal to their Strong score. If you run out of Health, you get Hurt, and have to add a Bad Die to everything you roll. If you were already Hurt and you run out of health again, you're Beaten, and can't do anything. You might even be dead, if the GM is feeling really mean!

At the end of a fight, you can take a few minutes to patch yourself up and go back to full Health--but if you were Hurt, that sticks around until you get a good night's sleep. If you've been Beaten, there's nothing you can do yourself--your friends will have to take you to a doctor, and you'll need at least a few days to get better.

When you're fighting, you take turns. Everyone goes around the table and gets to move a short distance and gets to make one Nice Move or one Mean Move. Then the GM gets to go. They can move move all their monsters a short distance, and each one gets to make one Nice or Mean Move as well. Then you start again, until one side runs away or is beaten!

The three Mean Moves involve hurting your enemies. When using a Mean Move, you and whoever you're attacking both have to roll, and you have to win. If you roll a 6, you get a Critical Hit, and the Move works twice as well!

Hit: You deal one damage to someone. On a Critical Hit, you deal two damage!
Trick: You give someone a Bad Die on their next roll. On a Critical Hit, the Bad Die lasts for two rolls!
Push: You make someone move a few steps in any direction (except straight up). On a Critical Hit, you move them twice as far!

The three Nice Moves involve helping your friends. When using a Nice Move, you don't have to roll-- they just work. Though that also means they can't crit!

Heal: You heal someone for one damage, or remove a Bad Die someone gave them.
Help: You give someone a Nice Die on their next roll.
Run: You move a short distance again.


Remember, though, that Moves are something you can always do, not just when you're fighting. Help and Trick can be used in a lot of different places!

Bad Guys
Bad guys work pretty much like players do. They have five Abilities and they get Specials, just like everyone else. The only difference is that the DM gets to pick whatever numbers they want. They can have Abilities as high as 5, they can have any number of Specials, and they can have any amount of Health you want before they get Hurt and Beaten. Just not too much, or else the players will never win.

When in doubt, you can always start with the Basic Dude: They have zero in all abilities, one Special, and they can take one damage before being Hurt and one more before being Beaten.

Rewards
As you play, you might find treasure, lean new powers and get lots of practice at doing things. At the end of a game, the GM can reward the players with either a new Special or a +1 increase to one of their abilities, or to their Health. Abilities still can't go above 2, though!

Anonymouswizard
2018-06-06, 05:21 PM
So can we get this one on DriveThruRPG soon as well? I'd certainly pay 50p, probably even a whole quid for it.

Cluedrew
2018-06-06, 05:50 PM
I love the terminology you use to describe this game.

Odd thing, for some reason I feel a bit odd about there not being a Bad/Disabled (-1) option. Not sure why really but I feel like there should be one. That might just be my personal bias, but I kind of like there should be that option. Being bad at something is OK.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-06-06, 06:54 PM
So can we get this one on DriveThruRPG soon as well? I'd certainly pay 50p, probably even a whole quid for it.
Heh :smallredface: Also, from the other thread...


It depends. I'm not overly sold that the system needs positioning as a part of combat, but as I could take Sword Fighting or Marksmanship as skills there might still be situations where it comes up. It might just be because I prefer theatre of the mind.

Note that 'more complex than it needs to be' is not 'bad'. With or without positioning being important KFONRPG still has more tactical combat without actually being more complex (because each successful attack deals one hit, but you can do stuff other than attack). You could potentially even add in a fourth Nice move, Defend (give the next person to attack you a Bad Die) without making it more complex, but I like how not having that option makes it more active.

The difference is that KFON has much simpler characters than NNDD, but slightly more complex combat. Not that much more complex, instead of an attack and three supers I have to keep in mind six actions and my Specials, and it does come out much simpler. But those simple characters are significantly more flexible, even if you can essentially spend a Special in order to attack with your highest Ability.
I don't think you need a grid or anything either, but in my experience players like being able to push people off cliffs and such-- especially ones who haven't had D&D Bull Rush rules beat it out of their systems. I guess I could change 30ft/10ft to "a short distance" and "a few steps" or something? (Defending would basically be using Help on yourself).


I love the terminology you use to describe this game.

Odd thing, for some reason I feel a bit odd about there not being a Bad/Disabled (-1) option. Not sure why really but I feel like there should be one. That might just be my personal bias, but I kind of like there should be that option. Being bad at something is OK.
Hmm, yeah, I can see that. How 'bout an optional "one Bad in exchange for one more Good" thing?

Knaight
2018-06-06, 09:13 PM
Seems like a solid enough microsystem. That said there's some weirdness in edge cases - most notably opposed actions favor the aggressor, which creates a situation where if there isn't one (any case of indirect opposition where people aren't trying to do something to someone) there's suddenly the question of how to handle ties. Given the d6 base of the system ties are going to be pretty common.

I'd also move advancement down into its own section after health, so that adding +1 Health to the advancement options opens up.

InvisibleBison
2018-06-06, 09:27 PM
Whenever you try to do something, you roll 1d6 and add whatever Ability the GM thinks is best. If you're trying to do something to another character, they roll the same Ability, and if your number is equal or higher, you win and do what you were trying to do. If you're just trying to do something in the world, you have to roll a 4 or more to win.

Since this system seems to be aimed at least in part at people with no real RPG experience, you might want to include something about the GM being able to say some things are simply impossible no matter how high you roll.


Powers mean you have a special ability no-one else does, like being able to fly or control fire.

I think powers could do with some more thorough rules. What would it mean if a character is able to control fire, for example? Can they make a fire leap from a torch onto the guy holding it? Can they instantly extinguish a burning building? Can they compel fire elementals to obey them? Do they have to roll something to do any of this?

Razade
2018-06-06, 10:20 PM
This feels very much like Powered By the Apocalypse honestly. Also not sure what age range your shooting for but some of the terms seem a mite condescending. Talky? I suppose Charisma might be a big word to most kids but certainly you could use like..Charm? Or something?

Cluedrew
2018-06-07, 07:05 AM
Hmm, yeah, I can see that. How 'bout an optional "one Bad in exchange for one more Good" thing?Yeah, either that or a bonus special would probably be the best way to do it. I say that because the with 5 stats, 4 good and one bad might be a bit much. Or not I haven't tried playing it yet.

The other thing is maybe if you want to keep it simple: measuring distance by spaces instead of the in game world might be a good idea. Unless you are doing the war game measuring stick thing, in which case measuring by physical distance might be better. Unless it is supposed to be theatre of the mind and that is just an in world distance. Should of asked that first.

To Razade: Powered by the Apocalypse? I got a FATE vibe from it, with the specials being Stunts and the ladder idea on stats and the five stats reminding me of FAE. Regular STaRS (at least, last version of it I read) felt more like M&M-lite.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-06-07, 11:02 AM
Seems like a solid enough microsystem. That said there's some weirdness in edge cases - most notably opposed actions favor the aggressor, which creates a situation where if there isn't one (any case of indirect opposition where people aren't trying to do something to someone) there's suddenly the question of how to handle ties. Given the d6 base of the system ties are going to be pretty common.
If there's no opposition, it defaults to "roll 4 or higher" (AKA 50% base success rate). Or is there another facet I'm not noticing?


I'd also move advancement down into its own section after health, so that adding +1 Health to the advancement options opens up.
Good idea.


Since this system seems to be aimed at least in part at people with no real RPG experience, you might want to include something about the GM being able to say some things are simply impossible no matter how high you roll.
Good idea.


I think powers could do with some more thorough rules. What would it mean if a character is able to control fire, for example? Can they make a fire leap from a torch onto the guy holding it? Can they instantly extinguish a burning building? Can they compel fire elementals to obey them? Do they have to roll something to do any of this?
Ehhh... I'll add a bit ("still need to roll" and "still have upper bounds," but I'm intentionally keeping it loose--if I start adding clarifications where I feel like there really should be, it'll build back up to STaRS in pretty short order. (Seeing as STaRS is my attempt at "as light as possible without being vague")


This feels very much like Powered By the Apocalypse honestly. Also not sure what age range your shooting for but some of the terms seem a mite condescending. Talky? I suppose Charisma might be a big word to most kids but certainly you could use like..Charm? Or something?
I considered Charm, but that feels like it's leaving intimidation and suchlike off the table. I dunno. Maybe Charm and a new ability, Scary? Are there any other points where you feel like terms went too baby-ish?


Yeah, either that or a bonus special would probably be the best way to do it. I say that because the with 5 stats, 4 good and one bad might be a bit much. Or not I haven't tried playing it yet.

The other thing is maybe if you want to keep it simple: measuring distance by spaces instead of the in game world might be a good idea. Unless you are doing the war game measuring stick thing, in which case measuring by physical distance might be better. Unless it is supposed to be theatre of the mind and that is just an in world distance. Should of asked that first.

You're right about the bonus Special. As for distances... I dunno, part of me wants to say "a short distance" and "a few steps" for moving and pushing; that feels a bit more in keeping with the rest of the system's vague-ness.


To Razade: Powered by the Apocalypse? I got a FATE vibe from it, with the specials being Stunts and the ladder idea on stats and the five stats reminding me of FAE. Regular STaRS (at least, last version of it I read) felt more like M&M-lite.
I was definitely thinking along the lines of "lighter STaRS" when writing it, but I can see where you get FAE (the five stats are pretty approach-y) and PbtA (the list of moves). Actually, I can imagine it getting more PbtA-y pretty easily, with pre-gen characters getting new Moves to go with pre-set Specials, so Fred the Fire Wizard might get, I dunno, "Burn" and "Fireball" as new Mean Moves, and "Extinguish" as a Nice Move.

Knaight
2018-06-08, 08:12 PM
If there's no opposition, it defaults to "roll 4 or higher" (AKA 50% base success rate). Or is there another facet I'm not noticing?

I'm saying that there is opposition, but not an aggressor. To illustrate that, I have three examples involving pulling a rope.

1) There is a heavy object that's a bit tricky to grab, so someone ties a rope around it and pulls that. Obviously a roll of 4+ works here.

2) Someone is wearing a rope belt, and somebody else grabs it and tries to pull them with it. There's a clear aggressor here, so it's pretty clear that there's an opposed roll where the rope-puller wins.

3) Two people are playing tug of war (probably with stakes, as a bet or something. They both roll, and they tie (decent odds there). Who wins?

Grod_The_Giant
2018-06-08, 08:43 PM
I'm saying that there is opposition, but not an aggressor.
Aaah okay I see what you're talking about now. And... while it's a fair point, I think it's generally a niche enough situation that it's not worth making a special note of, not in a system as stripped-down as this. Tied rolls will be common, yes, but tied rolls without a clear aggressor/initiator rather less so. Like, how often are you going to have PCs playing tug-of-war with each other?

Cluedrew
2018-06-09, 01:01 PM
The three Mean Moves involve hurting your enemies. When using a Mean Move, you and whoever you're attacking both have to roll, and you have to win.

Hit: You deal one damage to someone.
[...]
The three Nice Moves involve helping your friends. When using a Nice Move, you don't have to roll-- they just work.

Heal: You heal someone for one damage, or remove a Bad Die someone gave them.
Problem: Healing happens at the same rate and is more reliable than damage. I foresee problems with that. I agree that the numbers are nice and simple, maybe they should stay that way. But maybe if there is some way to deal bonus damage (degree of success) or healing requires a check. Push it towards stuff happening (Health going down).


3) Two people are playing tug of war (probably with stakes, as a bet or something. They both roll, and they tie (decent odds there). Who wins?I have resolved this with this is where it comes out as a tie. A bit of time passes so that other characters can do something and then if both sides continue to try, they reroll. The ties toward the aggressor thing keeps things happening, but here the chance of a tie is small enough that the action stalling for a turn (1/6 at best) or two (1/36 at best) is acceptable. And occasionally a dramatic stand-off is... exciting.

Although as Grod_The_Giant points out, I don't see it happening that often, finding a thin reason why one character or another is the aggressor might work just as well. Plus that might encourage action.


I was definitely thinking along the lines of "lighter STaRS" when writing it, but I can see where you get FAE (the five stats are pretty approach-y) and PbtA (the list of moves). Actually, I can imagine it getting more PbtA-y pretty easily, with pre-gen characters getting new Moves to go with pre-set Specials, so Fred the Fire Wizard might get, I dunno, "Burn" and "Fireball" as new Mean Moves, and "Extinguish" as a Nice Move.That might work, at the very least I think some more example specials would help, but going beyond that. Well I think one of the strengths of the Playbooks is that they give you a very solid starting point, allow growth pretty freely. I think that model would work quite nicely here. Still I'm not quite sure what to do with the moves because specials already cover the "particular options open to this character". Is Burn just Hurt with Fire Control? Is Extinguish just Help/Heal with Fire Control?

I also I think some more rules about non-combat would probably help more. Although considering how light this game is saying help & trick can be used outside of combat might be all you need. Or the nice/mean moves in general?

In other words you might be better served by figuring out how to apply what you have more broadly then actually adding new things.

(Also I think the abstract distances work.)

Knaight
2018-06-11, 05:19 AM
Aaah okay I see what you're talking about now. And... while it's a fair point, I think it's generally a niche enough situation that it's not worth making a special note of, not in a system as stripped-down as this. Tied rolls will be common, yes, but tied rolls without a clear aggressor/initiator rather less so. Like, how often are you going to have PCs playing tug-of-war with each other?

In a game for kids? Some sort of organized competition without a clear aggressor being used in lieu of trying to shank somebody seems like the sort of thing that comes up a lot. Tug of war was a useful example because it tied in well to the other two cases, but there's a lot of things that meet the criteria. Two people dive for the same item, two people see each other then race off towards a known shared goal they're competing for, two people are both trying to get to a third person first (one to bring harm, the other to warn of it), heck, two people end up in a tug of war because they Indiana-Jones whipped the priceless artifact and are trying to pull it to them.

In my experience this sort of thing can come up a lot.

Razade
2018-06-11, 05:54 AM
I considered Charm, but that feels like it's leaving intimidation and suchlike off the table. I dunno. Maybe Charm and a new ability, Scary? Are there any other points where you feel like terms went too baby-ish?

Well, can always just throw in a / between the two. Charisma doesn't particularly scream Intimidation. Pretty sure that's a STR in classic D&D for that very reason. Couldn't you intimidate someone with just your force of knowledge? Or a display of strength? Why are you trying to tie down a particular "STat" to a lot of different things and why, when you're going to make them decided their strong stats, add another for them to juggle? This is, after all, a game for kids. One would think allowing (and maybe even defining) stats to do multiple things would help. You don't really seem to cover the mental side of things. This is obviously for a younger crowd but what would you make someone roll if a mind reader was trying to read their thoughts? Surely not Smart. Because Smart doesn't correspond to that kind of thing and if you're trying to keep things in a single arena...well.

It's important, I think, to figure out what the stats DO. Some suggestions.

Strong: Moving things, being healthy, resisting physical issues, displays of strength (this would be your intimidate)
Fast: Moving fast, thinking fast (under pressure), Resourcefulness (under pressure),
Sneaky: Concealing, hiding in plain sight/skulking, resisting charms/etc
Smart: Obviously being smart/knowing lots. Figuring things out over time/observation,
Charm: Being friendly, making people do what you want,



Obviously just some quick suggestions. As to the rest, I can look it over. Nothing else jumped out as especially childish in wording however.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-06-11, 06:42 AM
Problem: Healing happens at the same rate and is more reliable than damage. I foresee problems with that. I agree that the numbers are nice and simple, maybe they should stay that way. But maybe if there is some way to deal bonus damage (degree of success) or healing requires a check. Push it towards stuff happening (Health going down).
Yeah, fair. Hmm. I could see a "crit if you roll a 6" type of thing for mean moves, maybe? Or...maybe also just remove Heal as a move, and specify that health comes back after a fight.


That might work, at the very least I think some more example specials would help, but going beyond that. Well I think one of the strengths of the Playbooks is that they give you a very solid starting point, allow growth pretty freely. I think that model would work quite nicely here. Still I'm not quite sure what to do with the moves because specials already cover the "particular options open to this character". Is Burn just Hurt with Fire Control? Is Extinguish just Help/Heal with Fire Control?
The strength of PBtA systems in general is that they're very focused on one specific type of game, and the playbooks represent that. This is generic at the moment, but I can see doing something similar if I decided to use it as the engine for something more specific.


I also I think some more rules about non-combat would probably help more. Although considering how light this game is saying help & trick can be used outside of combat might be all you need. Or the nice/mean moves in general?
Makes sense. My gut tells me that STaRS style totally-abstract-conflict rules might be stretching a bit too far, but Help and Trick out of combat should cover a decent bit of ground.


In a game for kids? Some sort of organized competition without a clear aggressor being used in lieu of trying to shank somebody seems like the sort of thing that comes up a lot. Tug of war was a useful example because it tied in well to the other two cases, but there's a lot of things that meet the criteria. Two people dive for the same item, two people see each other then race off towards a known shared goal they're competing for, two people are both trying to get to a third person first (one to bring harm, the other to warn of it), heck, two people end up in a tug of war because they Indiana-Jones whipped the priceless artifact and are trying to pull it to them.

In my experience this sort of thing can come up a lot.
Fair point. I'll add a "if there's a tie, roll again" clause.


Well, can always just throw in a / between the two. Charisma doesn't particularly scream Intimidation. Pretty sure that's a STR in classic D&D for that very reason. Couldn't you intimidate someone with just your force of knowledge? Or a display of strength? Why are you trying to tie down a particular "STat" to a lot of different things and why, when you're going to make them decided their strong stats, add another for them to juggle? This is, after all, a game for kids. One would think allowing (and maybe even defining) stats to do multiple things would help. You don't really seem to cover the mental side of things. This is obviously for a younger crowd but what would you make someone roll if a mind reader was trying to read their thoughts? Surely not Smart. Because Smart doesn't correspond to that kind of thing and if you're trying to keep things in a single arena...well.

It's important, I think, to figure out what the stats DO. Some suggestions.

Strong: Moving things, being healthy, resisting physical issues, displays of strength (this would be your intimidate)
Fast: Moving fast, thinking fast (under pressure), Resourcefulness (under pressure),
Sneaky: Concealing, hiding in plain sight/skulking, resisting charms/etc
Smart: Obviously being smart/knowing lots. Figuring things out over time/observation,
Charm: Being friendly, making people do what you want,



Obviously just some quick suggestions. As to the rest, I can look it over. Nothing else jumped out as especially childish in wording however.
...you're right, both in that I should define the stats a bit more, and that I should have a bit more definition in the mental stats. Maybe Smart, Charm, and Stubborn? (Int/Cha/Wis, roughly) Or Smarts/Friendly/Rude, that seems legit...

Razade
2018-06-11, 07:37 AM
...you're right, both in that I should define the stats a bit more, and that I should have a bit more definition in the mental stats. Maybe Smart, Charm, and Stubborn? (Int/Cha/Wis, roughly) Or Smarts/Friendly/Rude, that seems legit...

I've never been a fan of Roll-Play for things like mental stats and you shouldn't expect kids not to just...roleplay how smart/clever/etc they are naturally. Putting it to a roll seems more like a recipe for disaster than anything. If this is intended for a younger audience (to the point that Charisma is too big a word) why bother with mental stats at all really?

You seem to want to throw a stat at anything that might be somewhat in-between a stat you already have. Why not have them roll + the averages of two stats? A little extra math isn't going to hurt anything. It's a little more complex I grant you but it's certainly better than inventing three or so new stats.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-06-11, 08:40 AM
I've never been a fan of Roll-Play for things like mental stats and you shouldn't expect kids not to just...roleplay how smart/clever/etc they are naturally. Putting it to a roll seems more like a recipe for disaster than anything. If this is intended for a younger audience (to the point that Charisma is too big a word) why bother with mental stats at all really?

You seem to want to throw a stat at anything that might be somewhat in-between a stat you already have. Why not have them roll + the averages of two stats? A little extra math isn't going to hurt anything. It's a little more complex I grant you but it's certainly better than inventing three or so new stats.
...yeah, I suppose that's fair... I considered leaning a bit more into the FAE approaches, but I'd worry about that being too abstract to be easily approachable. But maybe I should go less "what represents the character's personality" and more "what else would need to be resolved with rolls that isn't easily covered by the physical stats?" In which case... observational skills and a magic/force of personality/"willpower" stat?

Razade
2018-06-12, 06:24 AM
...yeah, I suppose that's fair... I considered leaning a bit more into the FAE approaches, but I'd worry about that being too abstract to be easily approachable. But maybe I should go less "what represents the character's personality" and more "what else would need to be resolved with rolls that isn't easily covered by the physical stats?" In which case... observational skills and a magic/force of personality/"willpower" stat?

Perhaps. If you're able to wait and want it, I could go over the whole of the first post sometime this weekend.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-06-12, 07:41 AM
Perhaps. If you're able to wait and want it, I could go over the whole of the first post sometime this weekend.
If you're interested, that would be great.

Cluedrew
2018-06-22, 05:39 PM
Look what I forgot I had written down:
Sci-Fi:
Mechanic:
Nice - Fix: You can repair damage to machines and tune them to reach the max. (Help/Heal on mechanical things.)
Mean - Break: You can cause a machine to malfunction in a particular way.

Medic:
Trait - Doctor: You are a doctor, with time you can help someone who is hurt or beaten.
Nice - Focus: Instead of giving someone a good die you can let them crit. on a 5-6 on their next role.

Captain:
Nice - Inspire: When you socially help people, you can give everyone in a group a good die.
Mean - ?:It was based off of the comments about creating playbook like additions for particular games using this system. You might have even been able to figure that out. It is a fun idea but the system becomes very not-generic very quickly.