Fanatic Diplomacy Checks - How To?

[kalos72]

So I understand the skill check process and the idea of the skill itself.

But specially Fanatic, how does one get a 150 skill in Diplomacy to even make that possible?

Feats, magic items, buffs? Cannot be all skill ranks right?


I am looking to make a "Face" NPC to handle these things....

[zlefin]

keep in mind it's only 150 to get someone from hostile to fanatic;
doing friendly to fanatic is only 60.
also note that DMs might not let you play the rules as written once you can pump your check that high, because it can get very cheesy.


there are several diplomancer/very high diplomacy builds around. here's one:
https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=107057

[The Viscount]

Something that a lot of people bring up with Diplomacy into fanaticism is that there's no rule against using it several times, so often getting to fanatic ranking is only a DC 50 from helpful.

Hitting this isn't particularly difficult. 23 points will come from ranks alone at level 20. A one level dip into marshal is common in these discussions because it allows you to take motivate Cha to apply Charisma twice. Let's set a character's modifier at a conservative +5 (though higher is easily possible) so that's another 10 to the bonus. Add in skill focus (from marshal) and skill artistry (from Exemplar) for another +7. Exemplar also provides Skill Mastery so you can take 10 on the check. Your result is 50.

Exemplar also allows you to choose a different skill to use in place of Diplomacy, such as Bluff. All of the above could still apply, and then we add on +20 from Guidance of the Avatar and +30 from Glibness. Voice of the Dragon grants a +10 bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy, so that's a result of 110.

If we bring in items, let's assume we added 5 to cha from tome, and 6 from a cloak of charisma. That's another 10 added to your check because of the doubling effect of motivate Cha. Beguiling influence from a 1 level dip in warlock is an additional 6. Being a Changeling adds +2 racial bonus. Shaping the Silvertongue Mask will give you at least 2 more 4 if you have any essentia. Your result is 132. I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff, but I'm sure someone else can come up with the remaining 18. Other effects to bump your charisma would also be valuable. If you plan on using it in combat, a 1 level dip in binder binding Naberius will allow you to make the check rushed without penalty.

[kalos72]

Ahh ok, doing it twice once to friendly and then once again to fanatic. Gotcha...

Half elf bard 1/marshall 1/ Exemplar 5 would work in that case using a +30 item and an 18 CHA I think?

I am not excited about needing to make this guy a epic level character jus to hit Fanatic.

[Venger]

Something that a lot of people bring up with Diplomacy into fanaticism is that there's no rule against using it several times, so often getting to fanatic ranking is only a DC 50 from helpful.

Hitting this isn't particularly difficult. 23 points will come from ranks alone at level 20. A one level dip into marshal is common in these discussions because it allows you to take motivate Cha to apply Charisma twice. Let's set a character's modifier at a conservative +5 (though higher is easily possible) so that's another 10 to the bonus. Add in skill focus (from marshal) and skill artistry (from Exemplar) for another +7. Exemplar also provides Skill Mastery so you can take 10 on the check. Your result is 50.

Exemplar also allows you to choose a different skill to use in place of Diplomacy, such as Bluff. All of the above could still apply, and then we add on +20 from Guidance of the Avatar and +30 from Glibness. Voice of the Dragon grants a +10 bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy, so that's a result of 110.

If we bring in items, let's assume we added 5 to cha from tome, and 6 from a cloak of charisma. That's another 10 added to your check because of the doubling effect of motivate Cha. Beguiling influence from a 1 level dip in warlock is an additional 6. Being a Changeling adds +2 racial bonus. Shaping the Silvertongue Mask will give you at least 2 more 4 if you have any essentia. Your result is 132. I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff, but I'm sure someone else can come up with the remaining 18. Other effects to bump your charisma would also be valuable. If you plan on using it in combat, a 1 level dip in binder binding Naberius will allow you to make the check rushed without penalty.

Very thorough list.

As mentioned, persuasive performance puts a real dent in this (though it's hardly necessary)

Picking a skill that there's lots of support available to boost goes a long way to making this check, (though as you say, exemplar isn't strictly necessary to autoconvert people)

Another popular way is using jump as your persuasive performance. there is a lot of gear, spells, etc that boost jump, plus you can boost it by improving your movement speed, so becoming very fast (again, there are many ways to get fast) or more extreme methods, such as persistent footsteps of the divine, will also easily let you beat that dc.

[kalos72]

Thanks guys!

Let me break this down some for my mind:
Charisma Portion
18CHA Base
Phrenic Template +4 CHA
Half Fey Template +4 CHA
+5 from Tome
+6 from Cloak of Charisma
18+4+4+5+6=37 CHA+13 CHA Bonus DOUBLED FOR MARSHALL= +26 CHA Modifier Total

I forget the RAW on magic items that increase abilities but I thought they dont stack or something right? But I can theoretically read multiple Tomes of Leadership and Influence though right?


Same thing apply to items that buff skills, I.E. Diplomacy? I have found these but I am sue there are more ways to add skills if I can stack them:
+10 Voice of the Dragon Custom Magic Item
+5 Moment of Prescience Custom Magic Item
+5 Diplomat Rings

[kalos72]

Something that a lot of people bring up with Diplomacy into fanaticism is that there's no rule against using it several times, so often getting to fanatic ranking is only a DC 50 from helpful.

Hitting this isn't particularly difficult. 23 points will come from ranks alone at level 20. A one level dip into marshal is common in these discussions because it allows you to take motivate Cha to apply Charisma twice. Let's set a character's modifier at a conservative +5 (though higher is easily possible) so that's another 10 to the bonus. Add in skill focus (from marshal) and skill artistry (from Exemplar) for another +7. Exemplar also provides Skill Mastery so you can take 10 on the check. Your result is 50.

Exemplar also allows you to choose a different skill to use in place of Diplomacy, such as Bluff. All of the above could still apply, and then we add on +20 from Guidance of the Avatar and +30 from Glibness. Voice of the Dragon grants a +10 bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy, so that's a result of 110.

If we bring in items, let's assume we added 5 to cha from tome, and 6 from a cloak of charisma. That's another 10 added to your check because of the doubling effect of motivate Cha. Beguiling influence from a 1 level dip in warlock is an additional 6. Being a Changeling adds +2 racial bonus. Shaping the Silvertongue Mask will give you at least 2 more 4 if you have any essentia. Your result is 132. I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff, but I'm sure someone else can come up with the remaining 18. Other effects to bump your charisma would also be valuable. If you plan on using it in combat, a 1 level dip in binder binding Naberius will allow you to make the check rushed without penalty.

Are you saying that Exemplar allows me to run the CHA/Diplo line as normal and then add Bluff as a skill which give me the Glib/Avatar bonuses in the same total equation? So I add my CHA/Diplo/Bluff lines together for my totals?

[Venger]

Are you saying that Exemplar allows me to run the CHA/Diplo line as normal and then add Bluff as a skill which give me the Glib/Avatar bonuses in the same total equation? So I add my CHA/Diplo/Bluff lines together for my totals?

Not exactly.

As he explained, how it works is you use any other skill like diplomacy via your persuasive performance ability.

This would allow you to use cha+diplo, or bluff+diplo, one advantage of which is that you can use effect such as glibness and voice of the dragon.

[kalos72]

So its either CHA or Bluff. Ok.

I can get just about the Bluff bonus in Glib from CHA easy enough, and VotD applies to Diplot too no? Is there another reason I would want to go Bluff versus CHA?

Is it easier to buff a skill then an ability? Back to the questions of item stacking....

[Bavarian itP]

The point is that Bluff is incredibly easy to boost, that's why it's popular for the Exemplar trick. Rumours have it that Jump is even easier to boost.

[Venger]

So its either CHA or Bluff. Ok.

I can get just about the Bluff bonus in Glib from CHA easy enough, and VotD applies to Diplot too no? Is there another reason I would want to go Bluff versus CHA?

Is it easier to buff a skill then an ability? Back to the questions of item stacking....
No.

Regardless of the specific skill you use, you will get your ability (cha) + your skill + bonuses

Yes, voice of the dragon boosts both bluff and diplo. You never have to choose between cha and bluff.


The point is that Bluff is incredibly easy to boost, that's why it's popular for the Exemplar trick. Rumours have it that Jump is even easier to boost.

Yes, any googling of "jumplomancer" will get you a pretty high result, as discussed.

[kalos72]

Ok so with Exemplar...she can Take 10.

The reason for that dip is the Skill Artistry so that she can go Diplomacy and get an add +4 bonus OR Skill Mastery to change the skill you use instead of Diplomacy? I dont see how thats not either Bluff or Diplomacy...sorry.

Are my thoughts on CHA correct?

And I am still looking for answers about modifying abilities versus skills as a above.


Thanks!

[Venger]

Ok so with Exemplar...she can Take 10.

The reason for that dip is the Skill Artistry so that she can go Diplomacy and get an add +4 bonus OR Skill Mastery to change the skill you use instead of Diplomacy? I dont see how thats not either Bluff or Diplomacy...sorry.

Are my thoughts on CHA correct?

And I am still looking for answers about modifying abilities versus skills as a above.


Thanks!

Do you have a copy of complete adventurer you can look at to read exemplar?

You do get the ability to take 10 via skill mastery, which helps, but it also offers other things.

When you pick skill artistry with a skill (say bluff for example) you can then use that skill like you use diplomacy to influence npc attitudes when you gain the persuasive performance ability.

Skill artistry: +4 competence with skill
Skill mastery: take 10 with skill even when rushed/threatened
Persuasive performance: use a skill other than diplomacy like diplomacy to influence npc attitudes

Is there anything about this that still eludes you?

It's fine. When you're doing stuff like this, it's important to understand how everything works.

What do you mean "modifying abilities versus skills"? Once more: you do not have to choose between getting your cha bonus or getting your skill bonus. The way skills work is you take your ability modifier, add your ranks, and then any other bonuses you may have.

[Remuko]

Thanks guys!

Let me break this down some for my mind:
Charisma Portion
18CHA Base
Phrenic Template +4 CHA
Half Fey Template +4 CHA
+5 from Tome
+6 from Cloak of Charisma
18+4+4+5+6=37 CHA+13 CHA Bonus DOUBLED FOR MARSHALL= +26 CHA Modifier Total

I forget the RAW on magic items that increase abilities but I thought they dont stack or something right? But I can theoretically read multiple Tomes of Leadership and Influence though right?


Same thing apply to items that buff skills, I.E. Diplomacy? I have found these but I am sue there are more ways to add skills if I can stack them:
+10 Voice of the Dragon Custom Magic Item
+5 Moment of Prescience Custom Magic Item
+5 Diplomat Rings

multiple tomes dont stack. youre limited to a max +5 bonus of that type which you can get from a tome +5 or wishes.

[kalos72]

So with the dip into Exemplare you can go one of two paths:

CHA+Diplomacy+bonuses
OR
CHA+Bluff+bonuses

Right? Yes you can choose different skills but those are the most common, outside of Jump maybe.

With ability scores, separate question, I can only take one bonuses using magic items. IE I can only have one magic item that has a + to CHA, highest bonus wins. Correct?

Are skills the same way, one magic item that help Diplomacy or Bluff? One spell effect etc....

[kalos72]

multiple tomes dont stack. youre limited to a max +5 bonus of that type which you can get from a tome +5 or wishes.

But with tomes, aren't they designed to be read once and then they are gone, so it's a one time permanent increase right? If I find another Tome later for the same ability scores, I can't read it?

[Goaty14]

But with tomes, aren't they designed to be read once and then they are gone, so it's a one time permanent increase right? If I find another Tome later for the same ability scores, I can't read it?

You can; it just won't do anything, given you can only have up to a +5 inherent bonus to an ability score.

[kalos72]

Ok, cool.

I am noticing different "types" of skill buffs...like Guidance of the Avatar (+20 Competence) and Divine Insight (+12 Enhancement) would those stack since they are labeled as different types of skill buffs?

[Venger]

So with the dip into Exemplare you can go one of two paths:

CHA+Diplomacy+bonuses
OR
CHA+Bluff+bonuses

Right? Yes you can choose different skills but those are the most common, outside of Jump maybe.
Yeah, now you're starting to get it. Jump is probably the easiest skill overall to boost, but depending on your specific build, you might have more fun with another skill, such as bluff.


With ability scores, separate question, I can only take one bonuses using magic items. IE I can only have one magic item that has a + to CHA, highest bonus wins. Correct?

Are skills the same way, one magic item that help Diplomacy or Bluff? One spell effect etc....
Stop.

No, that is wrong. You may have any number of magic items boost the same thing, but you want the bonuses to either be untyped (so they will stack) or be of different types (one enhancement, one insight, one morale, etc)



But with tomes, aren't they designed to be read once and then they are gone, so it's a one time permanent increase right? If I find another Tome later for the same ability scores, I can't read it?
Yes, but tomes impart an inherent bonus. If you get an inherent bonus of 1 from tome A and then later try to get another bonus of 1 from tome B, you'll waste the time, but you'll have two +1s of the same type, so they will overlap and will not stack, leaving you only a +1 to your stat.


Ok, cool.

I am noticing different "types" of skill buffs...like Guidance of the Avatar (+20 Competence) and Divine Insight (+12 Enhancement) would those stack since they are labeled as different types of skill buffs?
There are different types for all kinds of bonuses. Bonuses of different types will always stack. The only types of bonuses that can stack are untyped bonuses (any bonus where the type is not listed) and dodge bonuses.

[kalos72]

Ok ok, I am starting to catch up here. Sorry for the slow goings... :)

Is there a list of spells that can affect either CHA or Diplomacy by chance? LOL!!!

[kalos72]

Ok how about something like this....

Class: Dragonfire Adept 1/Binder 1/Marshal 1
Charisma:
18 base
Phrenic +4 CHA
Half Fey +4 CHA
+5 from Tome (inherent)
+6 from Cloak of Charisma(enhancement)
Inner Beauty Ring +4 (sacred) CHA
Snowsong Ring+4 (morale) CHA
18+4+4+5+6+4+4=45 CHA+17 CHA Bonus DOUBLED FOR MARSHALL
+34 CHA Modifier

Feats:
Complimentary Insight
Negotiator
Sacred Vow
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) - bonus

Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (N&R), Sense Motive 5

Total bonuses
Ability: +6
Ranks: +5
Synergy: +6
Racial: +8
Motivate Charisma Aura: +34
Beguiling Influence :+6
Skill Focus: +3
Negotiator: +2
Sacred Vow: +2
Traits:
Clebdecher Glammerweave: +2(circumstance) Diplomacy
Voice Of The Dragon magic item +10 (enhancement)Diplomacy
Moment of Prescience magic item +10 (insight) Diplomacy
Diplomat’s Ring +5 (competence) Diplomacy

Naberius vestige - Take 10 on Diplomacy under pressure

Diplomacy at 99 I think?


Have to check the skills and feat numbers to make sure they work. Also still looking for other types of buffs that would work as custom magic items.

[Venger]

Ok how about something like this....

Class: Dragonfire Adept 1/Binder 1/Marshal 1
Charisma:
18 base
Phrenic +4 CHA
Half Fey +4 CHA
+5 from Tome (inherent)
+6 from Cloak of Charisma(enhancement)
Inner Beauty Ring +4 (sacred) CHA
Snowsong Ring+4 (morale) CHA
18+4+4+5+6+4+4=45 CHA+17 CHA Bonus DOUBLED FOR MARSHALL
+34 CHA Modifier

Feats:
Complimentary Insight
Negotiator
Sacred Vow
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) - bonus

Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (N&R), Sense Motive 5

Total bonuses
Ability: +6
Ranks: +5
Synergy: +6
Racial: +8
Motivate Charisma Aura: +34
Beguiling Influence :+6
Skill Focus: +3
Negotiator: +2
Sacred Vow: +2
Traits:
Clebdecher Glammerweave: +2(circumstance) Diplomacy
Voice Of The Dragon magic item +10 (enhancement)Diplomacy
Moment of Prescience magic item +10 (insight) Diplomacy
Diplomat’s Ring +5 (competence) Diplomacy

Naberius vestige - Take 10 on Diplomacy under pressure

Diplomacy at 99 I think?


Have to check the skills and feat numbers to make sure they work. Also still looking for other types of buffs that would work as custom magic items.

looking pretty good so far!

half-elf is garbage unless you're half-elf for a prereq to something (aside from complimentary insight) if you don't need to be something else, just go with human for the bonus feat (and bonus skill)

complimentary insight and negotiator are both awful. no feat that's just a tiny bonus on skills is worth the slot, so unless it's a tax for a prc, don't bother. your bonus is good enough without it, plus this way you can use the slots on other cool things. doesn't even really have to be diplo focused at this stage, it can just be general goodies.

is sacred vow opening a door for something else later? if you just took it for the bonus to diplo, then the same advice applies.

your math (as far as adding the number goes, assuming you didn't add the 10 from taking 10 on naberius) is correct, those bonuses come to 99

however:

you first get your charisma (+17) and then you get motivate charisma (+17) which adds it twice. this is written up as "motivate charisma aura" which is fine, but in this instance, you don't count the naked +6 from your cha again, so cut that. what level is your character? assuming you're starting at 3, why haven't you maxed ranks in diplo?

everything else looks pretty great so far. you ought to be able to do all the diplomacy you ever need with just this, though you can obviously keep investing later if you want to.

[kalos72]

The feats were just that, addons to Diplomacy but at 99, I dont need them thats true.

I haven't decided what level to start this guy at so I haven't thought about the skills yet. Obviously this is all around Diplomacy first...




Thanks for all your help, you took alot of time tonight to walk em through this. Thanks Venger!!!

[Venger]

The feats were just that, addons to Diplomacy but at 99, I dont need them thats true.

I haven't decided what level to start this guy at so I haven't thought about the skills yet. Obviously this is all around Diplomacy first...




Thanks for all your help, you took alot of time tonight to walk em through this. Thanks Venger!!!

All right. Let me know if you need any more help. You're welcome. Happy to be of assistance.