Super Defense Squad v2.0!

[EdenIndustries]

Hey folks, I come before you with an update to my previous Super Defense Squad idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544266-Super-Defense-Squad) and to appeal to the wisdom of the Playground!

After the Centaur UA came out, I was inspired to revise this plan a bit. Plus the recent post about a support build by PeteNutButter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559112-Let-me-Take-That-for-You-A-Support-Build) got me thinking too.

So at a high-level, the goal is to optimize a team of 4 characters around the theme of defense/protection/damage absorption, etc. And as a secondary optimization, DPR and all that other good stuff. Everyone will have a Reaction they can use for damage mitigation, which I'll indicate, and I'll try to utilize good bonus action economy where possible too.

So the current team plan is:

Goliath Abjuration Wizard 19/Warlock 1

Utilize abjuration ward with Armor of Agathys to make enemies kill themselves. Normally I'd go Gnome but their Gnomish Cunning is redundant with Spell Resistance from Arcane Tradition (granted it comes online quite late...) so I figured Goliath was a fun race choice for Stone's Endurance to fit the theme (plus I've never played Goliath nor had any inclination to before)
Since AoA is meant to deal with melee enemies, we'll make sure to have great spells to stymy the efforts of ranged characters (maybe even just a simple Fog Cloud to flush them out?) and spellcasters (Abjuration's boost to Counterspell will help here)
If stat rolls are bad, I'll sacrifice Goliath to go Gnome in order to make sure I can maximize Int and still have some fun feats.
Feats:

Mounted Combatant
Resilient: Con
Warcaster

Bonus Action - Flaming Sphere?
Reaction - Projected Ward

Goliath Paladin 2/Hexblade Warlock 1/Lore Bard 17

AoA from Warlock, Charisma-to-hit from Hexblade, Cutting Words from Bard, and smiting with lots of slots from Paladin! Plus Magical Secrets will let us pick up great defensive and supportive spells.
One important Magical Secrets aquisition will be Healing Spirit. More on that later.
Lore Bard is also a great Counterspeller in case we're up against spellcasters that aren't inclined to take a beating from AoA
As above, Goliath is only if stats still allow for Cha and Feats. Otherwise, probably do Half-Elf or Variant Human
Feats:

Mounted Combatant
Resilient: Con
Warcaster

Bonus Action - Spiritual Weapon (obtained via Magical Secrets)
Reaction - Cutting Words

Centaur Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 14-20/?

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian to mark an enemy so if it attacks anyone else (which it has to due to mounted combatant) it has disadvantage and we have resistance, plus the reaction to mitigate damage. So the enemy will attack, possibly do no damage from the reaction, and then get hammered by AoA.
Although Barbarian levels beyond 14 won't really do much for the theme of optimizing defense, I'm not sure what else makes sense. Barb 20 would at least give a stat bump which is not bad. But anything else seems like it would need to be useful right away. Some classes have an interesting level 6 feature, but to go all the way to Barb 14/X 6 for it would be a long, painful slog.
Feats:

Great Weapon Master
Polearm Master

Bonus Action - Polearm Master attack
Reaction - Spirit Shield

Centaur Oath of Redemption Paladin 7/Chain Warlock 3/Divine Soul Sorc 10

Twin Warding Bond onto the Wizard and Bard (or just cast it twice, depending on how the DM interpets the spell)
Pick up Gift of the Ever Living Ones from Warlock to maximize the healing from Healing Spirit (and our own Cure Wounds if needed)
Take damage from others using the Paladin's Aura of the Guardian, or punish an enemy after they do a big attack by using the Rebuke the Violent channel divinity
In addition, we've got plenty of slots to smite with and we can bust out some great Cleric spell staples like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians
Feats:

Resilient: Con
Warcaster

Bonus Action - Spiritual Weapon
Reaction - Aura of the Guardian and Rebuke the Violent


So, the high-level plan of all of the above is 2 characters with Armor of Agathys and Mounted Combatant riding on 2 Centaurs. That way enemies are forced to take a bunch of damage, and we'll have plenty of damage absorption options to ensure that the temp HP from AoA stays intact so that the damage it deals keeps on happening. The Oath of Redemption Paladin will soak up a ton of damage between Warding Bond and Aura of the Guardian, but maximized healing from Gift fo the Ever Living Ones will hopefully keep us hale and healthy. And the Barbarian protects people and just smashes them to bits with Reckless Attack and Great Weapon Master, and since no attacks can target us thanks to Mounted Combatant no one will be able to leverage the downside of Reckless Attack.

A couple things you may notice are pulled out of this build compared to the previous one:

No more Ancients Paladin. The resistance to spell damage aura is great, but maybe mostly redundant between Warding Bond and marking enemies with Ancestral Guardian Barbarian?
No more Rogue with Sentinel. I really liked that part, especially now if the Rogue were to be a Centaur and the rider can re-direct attacks to give the Rogue the reaction attack from Sentinel. The problem is, it seems necessary to have the Barbarian and the Redemption Paladin as the Centaurs so they can't be targeted and ensure that the AoA casters are targeted. But with that, there's no more room for a Rogue...

And a couple questions I have for you fine folks:

Does a multiclass for Barbarian after 14 make sense? If so, to what?
Are Resilient: Con and Warcaster necessary on the two casters? They're meant to be taking a lot of hits, but enough of them *might* be absorbed to make concentration checks rare enough anyway?
Is there a better bonus action utilization for the Wizard?

And then beyond those specific questions, anything you see that could be optimized better? Thanks for reading and for your thoughts!

[Biggstick]

There are a lot of tools being used here, and they look great! I'd be curious how such a group levels together, as two of your characters won't be realizing what you intend for them to do till way after level 10 (looking at the Bard and Sorcerers). Speaking of Sorcerer, it seems like you've completely built this 4th character off of the chance ruling of a DM allowing you to Twin Warding Bond. I wouldn't base a team off of something like that personally. You want such a team to not require DM leniency for it to be considered as a legitimate grouping of PC's imo.

Your Wizard's other reactions should include Absorb Elements, Shield, Featherfall, and Counterspell. They've got plenty of Reactions available in addition to Arcane Ward.

I'd try to avoid multiclassing, or at least a large amount of it till late game. Your Barbarian is a good example of this. It can do the job expected of it right from the start. It doesn't require any mixing and matching of anything, and by the time you decide to multiclass with it (if you do), it wouldn't be until a good portion of the game has been finished.

Personally, if I were building a group that intends to be protective, I'd run it a little bit more basic.

Gnome Abjuration Wizard. Crowd Control, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Fireball, Arcane Ward, and spell utility. Roleplay function: Sage, Intelligence based skills, Wizard spell list.
Halfling Light Cleric. Bountiful Luck, Dispel Magic, party buffing, restorative magic, Fireball, Warding Flare, and spell utility. Roleplay function: Guidance + Bountiful Luck. Support for everyone doing everything.
Half Orc Ancients Paladin. SnB with a focus on Defense, Misty Step, restorative magic, and Auras. Roleplay function: Primary Face and Strength-based character for the group.
Half Elf Ranger. Sharpshooter, Pass w/o Trace, Skill Monkey. Roleplay function: Criminal background for Thieves Tools, and acts as a scout/skill monkey for the group should they need a Rogue-like character.

This is a highly mobile group if one utilizes spells like Phantom Steed, Find Steed, and Conjure Animals. Without that though there is plenty of damage reduction and prevention available, plenty of explosive potential with double Fireballs available, and a solid fall-back plan of, "Protect the Sharpshooter." The only assumption I've made with this group is Halfling being able to take Bountiful Luck from Xanathar's and the Ranger being able to take Sharpshooter. Even without those options though, this is a solid grouping of classes that covers each others weaknesses and is quite capable of protecting one another.

[EdenIndustries]

Speaking of Sorcerer, it seems like you've completely built this 4th character off of the chance ruling of a DM allowing you to Twin Warding Bond. I wouldn't base a team off of something like that personally. You want such a team to not require DM leniency for it to be considered as a legitimate grouping of PC's imo.
Oh it's definitely not relying on twinning Warding Bond. That'd be nice, but seeing as how it's a non-concentration spell that lasts an hour (or 2 hours if I Extend it), that's really not a big deal if I can't twin it.



Your Wizard's other reactions should include Absorb Elements, Shield, Featherfall, and Counterspell. They've got plenty of Reactions available in addition to Arcane Ward.


Yeah I didn't list all the reactions but you're absolutely right that those are fantastic reactions pells.



Gnome Abjuration Wizard. Crowd Control, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Fireball, Arcane Ward, and spell utility. Roleplay function: Sage, Intelligence based skills, Wizard spell list.

This one I've basically got covered (although with the potential defensive boost of Goliath instead of Gnome, but as I mentioned Gnome is a good fallback)



Halfling Light Cleric. Bountiful Luck, Dispel Magic, party buffing, restorative magic, Fireball, Warding Flare, and spell utility. Roleplay function: Guidance + Bountiful Luck. Support for everyone doing everything.

Bountiful Luck is an awesome feat, but the rest of that seems fairly well covered by the Bard and Divine Soul I have. Everyone already has some great Reaction uses, but having Bountiful Luck isn't a bad thing to incorporate if possible, I admit.



Half Orc Ancients Paladin. SnB with a focus on Defense, Misty Step, restorative magic, and Auras. Roleplay function: Primary Face and Strength-based character for the group.

If I were convinced that the Ancients aura is better than the Redemption One plus the Barbarian marking plus Warding Bond (which I'm not convinced of yet, but willing to have my mind changed!) I could swap the Redemption Paladin above with Ancients and accomplish this essentially.



Half Elf Ranger. Sharpshooter, Pass w/o Trace, Skill Monkey. Roleplay function: Criminal background for Thieves Tools, and acts as a scout/skill monkey for the group should they need a Rogue-like character.

I'm not sure if this really adds that much to the idea of a defensive party. The Bard can grab Pass Without Trace and the Warlock 3 can get Voice of the Chain Master for a perfect scout.

All in all, it seems like the originally outlined team basically covers what you suggested but a ton more what with AoA, Mounted Combatant, etc. Bountiful Luck is a tantalizing addition though.

Also thanks a ton for your ideas! Sorry if it seemed like I went point-by-point to refute what you put, which totally wasn't my intent. Rather I was just trying to make sort of a head-to-head comparison. Let me know what you think of all that though.

[Biggstick]

Oh it's definitely not relying on twinning Warding Bond. That'd be nice, but seeing as how it's a non-concentration spell that lasts an hour (or 2 hours if I Extend it), that's really not a big deal if I can't twin it.

RAW, you can only use one metamagic per spell being cast. The only RAW exception that I know of is Empowered Spell. One of the other parts regarding reliance on Warding Bond is you're going to be within 60' of the target for the effects to actually take place. This puts you in trouble, especially against large AOE spells, as you will now be dealing with a situation in which you not only have to make the save against the spell yourself, but you'll be taking half the damage taken by the Barbarian. It seems like you've got plenty of healing available, but massive aoe damage seems like it'd be a big problem if you're depending on Warding Bond.


I'm not sure if this really adds that much to the idea of a defensive party. The Bard can grab Pass Without Trace and the Warlock 3 can get Voice of the Chain Master for a perfect scout. So the Bard is starting Paladin right? Or are they grabbing those levels later on? Either way, you've said the Lore Bard is grabbing Counterspell, Healing Spirit, and Pass w/o Trace. Sure, that's possible, but not at least until Lore Bard 10, which is a long ways away in terms of game time, meaning you wouldn't have at least one of those spells. That might be even higher if you start with 2 levels of Paladin. Not to knock it, as you can absolutely do it, but a set decision/leveling process of your multiclassed characters would be appreciated. More specifically, your Magical Secrets and when you'd take them.

The Ranger is there more so as a insurance policy regarding damage. Your damage insurance policy is with a GWM, which isn't nearly as consistent as a Sharpshooter with a Longbow.


All in all, it seems like the originally outlined team basically covers what you suggested but a ton more what with AoA, Mounted Combatant, etc. Bountiful Luck is a tantalizing addition though.

Also thanks a ton for your ideas! Sorry if it seemed like I went point-by-point to refute what you put, which totally wasn't my intent. Rather I was just trying to make sort of a head-to-head comparison. Let me know what you think of all that though.

It seems to require pre-buffing of AoA, as well as Mounted Combatant for it's effectiveness to be truly realized though. If the situation is made so Mounted Combatant isn't viable, I feel like the team takes a big hit.

Usually these are some of my favorite discussions personally, as there is always a good argument to be made for most team compositions.

[KeilFX]

When I think of a mega-defensive team, I'd probably go with...

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian (Spirit Shield seems good on a naturally tanky class).

Abjuration Wizard seems fun. I like your inclusion.

Druid. Two words; Healing Spirit. Also, Archdruid = virtually infinite HP.

Clerics and Paladins seem like obvious inclusions.

[EdenIndustries]

RAW, you can only use one metamagic per spell being cast. The only RAW exception that I know of is Empowered Spell.
Yeah I know. So if I can't Twin Warding Bond, and if it seems that we'll be fighting a whole bunch of battles in short order, casting Warding Bond two times (once on each target, each casting with Extend) is almost as good as Twin. So that's the fallback if a DM doesn't like Twinned Warding Bond, and that one is totally RAW.


One of the other parts regarding reliance on Warding Bond is you're going to be within 60' of the target for the effects to actually take place. This puts you in trouble, especially against large AOE spells, as you will now be dealing with a situation in which you not only have to make the save against the spell yourself, but you'll be taking half the damage taken by the Barbarian. It seems like you've got plenty of healing available, but massive aoe damage seems like it'd be a big problem if you're depending on Warding Bond.
Well the idea is to basically cluster the riders and mounts, so being within 60' feet is no problem. But, big AOE spells are certainly a problem. However, with the 2 best Counterspellers in the game I think this is mitigated somewhat. And in the case where it's not, I can soak up the (resisted) damage with Redemption Paladin and reduce the damage with Projected Ward and Spirit Shield. Since we're all huddled, the Wizard can cast Globe of Invulnerability too and make life miserable for enemy spellcasters. So there is a fair bit of mitigation here, but I concur that it's a weak spot.


So the Bard is starting Paladin right? Or are they grabbing those levels later on?
Probably, yeah. May as well for the slightly higher HP, heavy armor, and a bit better survivability in the early levels.


Either way, you've said the Lore Bard is grabbing Counterspell, Healing Spirit, and Pass w/o Trace. Sure, that's possible, but not at least until Lore Bard 10, which is a long ways away in terms of game time, meaning you wouldn't have at least one of those spells. That might be even higher if you start with 2 levels of Paladin. Not to knock it, as you can absolutely do it, but a set decision/leveling process of your multiclassed characters would be appreciated. More specifically, your Magical Secrets and when you'd take them.

Well given the theme of the defensive team, I'd say Pass Without Trace is more of a "Nice to have" rather than a need. But you're right, a more detailed breakdown of the levelling plan and Magical Secrets would be helpful. I'll put that at the bottom of this post.



The Ranger is there more so as a insurance policy regarding damage. Your damage insurance policy is with a GWM, which isn't nearly as consistent as a Sharpshooter with a Longbow.

Well I think I'd probably put GWM with Reckless Attack on even footing with Sharpshooter with Archery fighting style. Especially since the whole makeup of the build is built to get in close (because of AoA)



It seems to require pre-buffing of AoA, as well as Mounted Combatant for it's effectiveness to be truly realized though. If the situation is made so Mounted Combatant isn't viable, I feel like the team takes a big hit.

You're absolutely right about this. Given that Centaurs are medium though and can even climb (albeit slowly), I can't really think of a situation where Mounted Combatant wouldn't be viable (maybe in very low ceilings. Although if the riders are Gnome and Hafling, for example...perhaps not an issue)


Usually these are some of my favorite discussions personally, as there is always a good argument to be made for most team compositions.
Couldn't agree more!

As promised, detailed levelling plan:

Abjuration Wizard 19/Warlock 1

Start Warlock 1, Wizard for the rest

Paladin 2/Hexblade Warlock 1/Lore Bard 17

Start Paladin 1
Then Hexblade 1 for Cha-to-hit
Then Paladin 2
Finish Bard
This is going to be a bit rough, I can't deny it. The character will be heavily armored with some good smiting potential, but delaying our Bard features is going to be rough. Worth it in the end, I think, but rough.
Magical Secrets:

6 - Healing Spirit and Counterspell (Both arrive later than I'd like. However with the Wizard able to Counterspell and the Divine Soul able to heal, we're at least not missing these altogether)
10 - Circle of Power (this'll be a big help to the ol' AOE spell problem) and maybe Spiritual Weapon? Get some bonus action damage happening. Or Fire Shield? Stack with AoA, which is nice.
14 - Heroes' Feast and Word of Recall
18 (Probably only if I sacrifice the Paladin levels) - Wish, Holy Aura?


One thing to notice in that one is the possibility of not having Paladin on the Bard. It lets us get Bard features sooner, but we can't smite and we'll only have medium armor from Hexblade. Might be ok though?

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian X?

Given that I don't know about a multiclass here, just Barb for now


Oath of Redemption Paladin 7/Chain Warlock 3/Divine Soul Sorc 10

Oath of Redemption 7 to start. Feels core to the class, and grabbing Extra Attack can't hurt.
Warlock 3 next. Let's get that maxed healing happening!
And finally, Divine Soul for spell slots and other spells.

One thing about this build is perhaps Oath of the Crown is better than Redemption since it gets Warding Bond. We'd get it far earlier in that case than having to wait until character level 13 (yikes...). Another possibility if 3 levels of Divine Soul Sorc before Warlock, but that's still waiting until character level 10 for Warding Bond.

[EdenIndustries]

Just thought I'd add one final thought here and see if anyone else has any other feedback on any portion of the idea too. What if, instead of taking Resilient: Con and Warcaster for the two casters (who, by design, are hopefully not taking much damage anyway) they take Lucky and Bountiful Luck (assuming they're Halflings) which will allow them to negate crits against themselves and help allies pass saving throws?