Is there a guide for necromancers?

[Thrasher92]

As the title says, I'm looking for a guide for necromancers. I'm playing one in an upcoming campaign and I'm trying to figure out how exactly I want to design my undead army? I'm mostly looking for an idea of how many zombies I want vs how many skeletons. What is the cheapest way to outfit my undead minions to increase their damage and AC (The DM says that I can put armor on them and give them weapons).

[JackPhoenix]

Step 1: ask the GM and all other players if they want to deal with that sort of stuff. Proceed only if all are on board.

[Thrasher92]

Step 1: ask the GM and all other players if they want to deal with that sort of stuff. Proceed only if all are on board.

He already said yes. We are running an "evil" campaign. The others haven't decided exactly what they are going to be but I think 2 of them are leaning towards an assassin and a trickster cleric.

The other players know I love playing wizards and I asked when we finished the last campaign if they wouldn't mind me doing a little minion-mancy. They were fine with it.

[TheUser]

* Skeletons by in large out perform zombies because they are not limited by a) melee and b) 20ft of movement.

* Ask your DM if you can equip your undead withs arms and equipment; it makes a big difference if zombies in chainmail and shields (18 AC) vs not (8 AC). Likewise longbows vs shortbows and having half-plate makes a big difference for skeletons. Try to assure them that the investment is still rather costly (can be 1k gold per skeleton). If this is permissable by your DM take tensers floating disc to carry around the gear of your fallen skeletons.

* Remember your undead can spend hit dice to heal during short rests.

* There's no such dilineation between the corpse of a humanoid and the corpse of one of your fallen zombies. A zombie that dies just becomes a humanoid corpse again and a dead skeleton is just another pile of bones. Unless completely eradicated or melted/disintegrated/pulverized you can re-animate your fallen undead (Jeremy Crawford Sage Advice).

* Spells which continually deal damage and also deal it on the turn of the creature taking the damage are great for your second level ability as they will heal you for every killing blow they secure (Evards Black Tentacles)

* Use spells that grant advantage to attackers across a large amount of saves; blind, web, hold person etc. They will sky rocket the success of your undead attacks. Slow is another great way to boost hit chance.

* Roll all the attacks and damage of your undead at once (color linked dice work best). Really cuts back on the slog of rolling 10x for having 4 undead + your own cantrip attacks and damage; your tablemates will hate you less.

* Have your undead use the help action against high AC targets; your allies will benefit from the advantage more than your undead contribute in slight damage.

* Avoid spells which use your bonus action; it's likely to be spent commanding undead.

* Don't over invest in minions, 4-6 in tier 2 is more than enough and certain effects can wipe them out. I like to just play safe with them and use the one level 3 or 4 slot to re-assert control and Arcane Recovery it back. Keeps a nice task force of elite armored skeleton commandos that are still expendable.

* Vampiric Touch is 100% fun AF if you are damaged and in a position to get killing blows. You get the half damage healing and the 3hp per level of the spell from your level 2 feature.


Hope this helps good luck.

[Thrasher92]

Thanks!

I have read through the other wizard class guides about spells and I was thinking about how to use other spells in conjunction with a small group of skeletons.

Now, ideally my teammates will be melee fighters and keep the enemies from me so that all of my skeletons can be ranged but, I will need some "uh oh" melee spells like shocking grasp or something for if something gets close. But the rest of my spells I was thinking about crowd control.

Like, flaming sphere for battlefield control.

For items, the DM says I can equip the skeletons as necessary. But, I was thinking about making 1 or 2 of them "suicide bombers" somehow. I haven't figured that part out exactly, perhaps just a few sacks of flour and a torch (flour can cause a powder explosion) or maybe an oil fire.

I was also thinking about how a skeleton, if considered expendable, could help me with scouting out a location. I was thinking about putting a small coin purse on the skeleton with a marked coin inside. Then, have the skeleton wander near the place I'm going to attack later. Then hopefully the enemy will loot the skeleton afterwards and take my marked coin to wherever they keep money. Later, when I attack, I could use locate object on my marked coin to find where they keep their money. This might be a long shot and a waste of a skeleton but, I thought this might be a simple idea to use if I have extra skeletons at the end of the day and I know I won't be able to recast animate dead and regain control over them.

I would love to hear other ideas for spells optimized for a necromancer and ideas for tactics to use with equipped skeletons.

[Naanomi]

Talk with your GM about the 24 hour recast requirements... very strict reading of rest rules means you basically cannot renew the undead safely over and over; at least not forever

[War_lord]

For items, the DM says I can equip the skeletons as necessary. But, I was thinking about making 1 or 2 of them "suicide bombers" somehow. I haven't figured that part out exactly, perhaps just a few sacks of flour and a torch (flour can cause a powder explosion)

Under very very specific circumstances that can happen, it's not reproducible enough to be an offensive weapon.

Misunderstanding of popular science aside, I'm concerned that 5e isn't particularly designed for minion based combat styles.

[No brains]

Talk with your GM about the 24 hour recast requirements... very strict reading of rest rules means you basically cannot renew the undead safely over and over; at least not forever

Here's why: per a strict reading of the rules, a character can only benefit from one long rest in a 24-hour period (PHB186) and you need those long rests to restore your spell slots (PHB114). This gets to be a problem when you need to cast animate dead every 24 hours. One good way to weasel around this is to reassert control before your long rest, possibly using your arcane recovery. If you run out of spell slots in a day, be sure to decommission/ pen your skeletons before you rest.

In my experience, DMs will not play this fast and hard. Ask about how precisely your group wants to follow these rules. You may agree that it is fair to keep some spell slots constantly reserved for undead control.

If you want to make things interesting, you could try using deception/ intimidation/ persuasion to temporarily control your undead. You could lie to them and say the spell is still working/ threaten them if they run off at the end of the spell/ or just treat them nicely like any other hireling.

[JackPhoenix]

* There's no such dilineation between the corpse of a humanoid and the corpse of one of your fallen zombies. A zombie that dies just becomes a humanoid corpse again and a dead skeleton is just another pile of bones. Unless completely eradicated or melted/disintegrated/pulverized you can re-animate your fallen undead (Jeremy Crawford Sage Advice).

Can you link the SA? Because sage advice on ressurection claims otherwise.


Misunderstanding of popular science aside, I'm concerned that 5e isn't particularly designed for minion based combat styles.

May have something to do with the fact that minionmancy is boring for everyone else at the table.

[Naanomi]

One trick is to use all your spell slots for minions, then take a long rest (works better as an elf with the four hour rest); leaving you with spell slots and minions the next day. Each day, use spells sparingly (but don’t completely neglect them) and each night refresh minions with whatever you have left

[TheUser]

Can you link the SA? Because sage advice on ressurection claims otherwise.



"...animate dead can bring them back!"

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/11/healing-undead-minions/

Remember that animate dead is not Resurrection; they are distinct.

[JackPhoenix]

"...animate dead can bring them back!"

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/11/healing-undead-minions/

Remember that animate dead is not Resurrection; they are distinct.

Doesn't matter they are distinct, JC is wrong on this one. Corpse of a zombie is still corpse of an undead, not corpse of a humanoid. This SA doesn't refute it.

He may be talking about skeletons, not zombies, though, which could potentialy work, as the sentence in Animate Dead's description could be read as if the humanoid restriction only applied to zombies.

Alternatively, it's another of those "they've changed their mind later", as this tweet is older than the one about creature type not changing after death.

[Xihirli]

Abt ridiculous levels you can make them suicide bombers with two empty bags of holding.

[TheUser]

Doesn't matter they are distinct, JC is wrong on this one. Corpse of a zombie is still corpse of an undead, not corpse of a humanoid. This SA doesn't refute it.

He may be talking about skeletons, not zombies, though, which could potentialy work, as the sentence in Animate Dead's description could be read as if the humanoid restriction only applied to zombies.

Alternatively, it's another of those "they've changed their mind later", as this tweet is older than the one about creature type not changing after death.

When a zombie dies it goes back to being a corpse. Nothing about animate dead transforms the corpse; it merely animates it. Unlike ghouls, vampires ghasts etc.

Imagine if you will a DM tells you there are 2 corpses in a room in a dungeon.

"They have a head, 2 arms 2 legs and look like they used to be human."

"Ok I cast animate dead!"

"Get fukt they're zombie corpses."

[Waazraath]

He already said yes. We are running an "evil" campaign. The others haven't decided exactly what they are going to be but I think 2 of them are leaning towards an assassin and a trickster cleric.

The other players know I love playing wizards and I asked when we finished the last campaign if they wouldn't mind me doing a little minion-mancy. They were fine with it.

If you go necromancer, having one of the others go Oathbreaker is gold. Extra damage (and party optimization) for the win!

[JackPhoenix]

When a zombie dies it goes back to being a corpse. Nothing about animate dead transforms the corpse; it merely animates it. Unlike ghouls, vampires ghasts etc.

Yes, corpse of an undead. Animate Dead animates a corpse, transforming it from a corpse of a humanoid (which is the only legal target for the spell (ignoring bones for now)), into a zombie, an undead creature. If you later destroy that zombie, what remains will be a corpse of a zombie (i.e. undead, i.e. no longer legal target for Animate Dead).

[TheUser]

Yes, corpse of an undead. Animate Dead animates a corpse, transforming it from a corpse of a humanoid (which is the only legal target for the spell (ignoring bones for now)), into a zombie, an undead creature. If you later destroy that zombie, what remains will be a corpse of a zombie (i.e. undead, i.e. no longer legal target for Animate Dead).

Does a non-magical object animated by the animate objects spell leave a corpse of a construct upon reaching zero hit points because it's technically a creature while animated or is it just a broken object?

In the same regard does animate dead actually reshape the body of the corpse it animates or just breathe false life into it? (Hint: "Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life...")

Did it ever occur to you that the corpse of a humanoid and the corpse of an undead are not mutually exclusive properties the same way a skeleton's "corpse" and a "pile of bones" aren't either.

The DM he's playing under seems permissive enough to go with the flow on JC sage advice / common sense.

If it were anything but skeletons and zombies you would be right but the game's lead designer seems to be with me on this one.

[No brains]

IIRC a skeleton does not even need a human skeleton to make, it just requires 'a pile of bones'. Binge on fried chicken and then cook up some crispy minions!

To a degree, I even like this thematically because a hodgepodge skeleton looks more 'evil' and better displays a mockery of life. A complete human skeleton looks so ordered and clean that it doesn't seem evil to me. It's just an element of nature, even if it is aggressively moving on its own. It's sort of like a shambling mound or ooze to me.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Some other things to note.

*To be a successful Necromancer you are going to be evil. Embrace this. Just remember the number 1 rule. Be Practical not Maniacal. This will make you and your comrades less likely to start a breeding ground for upstart heroes who will try to end you by any means.



*There are ways to heal undead and here are some of them: Temp HP, spending HD during short rest, Unicorn Spirit(Shepherds Druid), Balm of the Summer Court(Dreams Druid), Keeper of Souls(Graves Cleric), Song of Rest(Bard), Rallying Cry(Purple Dragon Knight Fighter), Healing Light(Celestial Warlock), Aura of Vitality (Paladin spell 3rd level).

*Have your Skeleton Archer's use Ready actions. Can be useful for various tactics like when to fire when receiving a charge from enemies.

*Make use of your familiar for scouting not your valuable bone collection.

*Look for Rings of Spell storing, even one of these can do so much.

*Necromancer's benefit from team play. convince the Paladin to break his oath, have him be your General.

*Their is two schools of that for a traveling necromancer with regards to your undead minions. The first is to disassemble and reassemble when convenient . Makes it easier when going into town for supplies and such. But you also need to recast our stuff when a fight breaks out. The second school of that is riskier but means you have your minions ready at all times. Disguises. Gentle repose, prestidigitation, and other such spells plus disguises can turn your skeletons into really pasty skinny people. Put them in robes and now you have a few monks with vows of silence and such. Be creative.

*Wights. Wights are great since they can control their own cohort of undead. use these as lieutenants. 2 Wights commanding a squad of 3 skeletons each is probably the max you should travel with. Have your wights be prepared to do different things. Oil +Alchemist Fire is good AOE and battlefield control. Make use of other such items with these guys.

[Mercurias]

May have something to do with the fact that minionmancy is boring for everyone else at the table.

I’ve played with minionmancers before, both good and bad.

The best ones are a blast to play with. Their turns might be a touch longer, but they mitigate the worst of it by:
-Being organized. They have a list of daily spells and a running tally of their spells per day. They have sheets for each summoning spell, plus sheets for every creature they can summon with it and the spells those creatures can use.
-Knowing their summons. They’re aware of what they summoned and what those summons are able to do, as well as their stats and saves. Being organized is a big part of this.
-Not fighting the DM. They pick a proper time to debate rules with the DM and adapt on the fly to keep from bogging down the game.
-Fighting smart, but not convoluted. Most of the best strategies are effective AND simple. A ten-round chess move against the DM might seem like fun for the player, but it’s distracting and often frustrating for others in the group.
-Playing to augment the team. Rather than act like a one-person party, a good minionmancer uses his or her summons to support and empower the other PCs. Most of the time the other PCs are going to be plenty happy with your turn taking an extra half-minute so long as you’re making sure the Rogue has advantage every round and that nothing is eating the Cleric.
-Grouping minion actions where possible. It helps keep you from monopolizing time, and that’s really important in a cooperative game.
-Focusing on everyone having a good time. This one is self-explanatory.

[JackPhoenix]

Does a non-magical object animated by the animate objects spell leave a corpse of a construct upon reaching zero hit points because it's technically a creature while animated or is it just a broken object?

In the same regard does animate dead actually reshape the body of the corpse it animates or just breathe false life into it? (Hint: "Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life...")

There's a difference between Animate Objects and Animate Dead: Animate Objects has a limited duration, the magic is present only as long as the caster concentrate, then it's back to being an object. Animate Dead is an instant spell, once created, the resulting undead is independent creature who doesn't need anymore magic to sustain it, can't be dispeled or disrupted by Antimagic Field.

If you destroy Animated Armor (MM creature), you'll get "corpse" of an construct.


Did it ever occur to you that the corpse of a humanoid and the corpse of an undead are not mutually exclusive properties the same way a skeleton's "corpse" and a "pile of bones" aren't either.

They are. "Humanoid" and "undead" are mutually exclusive creature types, and the corpse retains its creature type after death, unless external circumstances (say, casting Animate Dead on human corpse) intervene. Skeleton's "corpse" may be a pile of bones (the same way rabbit's corpse may be a dinner), but if any effect cares about the original creature type of that pile of bones, it counts as an undead.


Snip

That much is true, but not not all of that is obvious to every would-be minionmancer. In my experience, points 5 and 6 are the most common sources of problems, with the minionmancer trying to hog spotlight or to try to solve everything by throwing a horde of minions at it. Another problem, pretty much gone from 5e, but very much present in 3.5e, is if the minion is better and more powerful than actual player character.

[Mercurias]

That much is true, but not not all of that is obvious to every would-be minionmancer. In my experience, points 5 and 6 are the most common sources of problems, with the minionmancer trying to hog spotlight or to try to solve everything by throwing a horde of minions at it. Another problem, pretty much gone from 5e, but very much present in 3.5e, is if the minion is better and more powerful than actual player character.

Oh gosh yes, you could get utterly stupid in 3.5 and Pathfinder. Summoner Eidolens, too. I rather like the setup for Elemental and Animal minions in 5e, but undead seem clunky to maintain and I don’t know how strong they are in later levels for a PC to rely on them.

[TheUser]

There's a difference between Animate Objects and Animate Dead: Animate Objects has a limited duration, the magic is present only as long as the caster concentrate, then it's back to being an object. Animate Dead is an instant spell, once created, the resulting undead is independent creature who doesn't need anymore magic to sustain it, can't be dispeled or disrupted by Antimagic Field.

If you destroy Animated Armor (MM creature), you'll get "corpse" of an construct.



I want to follow your logic here. 2 different spells both turn a non-living inanimate object into a creature, but not a living creature, and when one dies it's remains are irrevocably altered because the duration of the spell was instant as opposed to 1 minute concentration?

...Does this mean that while concentrating the slain animated object is still the corpse of a construct?

That because one has a set duration and the other is permanent ergo there must be a fundamental change to the original properties of the animated corpse?

This feels like knee-jerk rebuttal for the sake of trying to find a hole in the previous argument; you're grasping at straws.

While the attempt at an anti-magic field analysis was great there are some who would claim that AMF would immediately revert the animated corpses back to their lifeless forms; while the effect of the spell is "instant" they are only animated because of the presence of magic.




They are. "Humanoid" and "undead" are mutually exclusive creature types, and the corpse retains its creature type after death, unless external circumstances (say, casting Animate Dead on human corpse) intervene. Skeleton's "corpse" may be a pile of bones (the same way rabbit's corpse may be a dinner), but if any effect cares about the original creature type of that pile of bones, it counts as an undead.



There is precedent.
A werewolf is a humanoid shapechanger that reverts to humanoid when it dies.

When a zombie dies the magic animating it leaves. If no physical distinction can be made between it and a humanoid corpse (since no physical transformation has occurred) and no magic is left in the dead body is it not just the corpse of a humanoid now? You can get as technical as you want it's clear you don't want to change your stance but I've made my case and any player that expects this ruling has sage advice backing them.

[JackPhoenix]

I want to follow your logic here. 2 different spells both turn a non-living inanimate object into a creature, but not a living creature, and when one dies it's remains are irrevocably altered because the duration of the spell was instant as opposed to 1 minute concentration?

...Does this mean that while concentrating the slain animated object is still the corpse of a construct?

No. Animate Object specifically adress this: "When the animated object drops to 0 hit points, it reverts to its original object form, and any remaining damage carries over to its original object form."


While the attempt at an anti-magic field analysis was great there are some who would claim that AMF would immediately revert the animated corpses back to their lifeless forms; while the effect of the spell is "instant" they are only animated because of the presence of magic.

"Some" could claim that. "Some" would be explicitly wrong (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/28/once-animated-a-skeletonzombie-would-stay-animated-in-antimagic-field/), however.


There is precedent.
A werewolf is a humanoid shapechanger that reverts to humanoid when it dies.

At no point does werewolf change its creature type. It remains a humanoid even if wolf form, unlike Polymorph or Wild Shape which does change your creature type.


When a zombie dies the magic animating it leaves. If no physical distinction can be made between it and a humanoid corpse (since no physical transformation has occurred) and no magic is left in the dead body is it not just the corpse of a humanoid now? You can get as technical as you want it's clear you don't want to change your stance but I've made my case and any player that expects this ruling has sage advice backing them.

Who says no physical distinction can be made between zombie corpse and humanoid corpse? You? There's a fundamental difference between the two creatures, as one was fueled by negative energy (as are all undead) and the other by positive energy (as are all living creatures). Just because a corpse looks humanoid at first glance, it doesn't mean it is... humanoids, many undead, giants, some fey, even constructs and some elementals, celestials and fiends share basic humanoid form (head, two legs, two arms), but that doesn't mean they have humanoid creature type... which, as MM notes, matters more than mere looks: "A monster's type speaks to its fundamental nature. Certain spells, magic items, class features, and other effects in the game interact in special ways with creatures of a particular type."

I may be "as technical as I want", because I have plenty of evidence for my stance, unlike you, who base your entire argument on one old SA, which doesn't provide any explanation, and contradicts multiple later SA rulings, and players should be very careful about basing their expectations on such flimsy basis.