New Campaign Book Announced: Dragon Heist

[EvilAnagram]

https://youtu.be/mlwlv63LGN4

Cookies for people who guessed Waterdeep, heist, or urban adventure. "Another Forgotten Realms adventure," does not get a cookie because everyone knew in their hearts that it would be a Forgotten Realms adventure.

Anyone who guessed, "Thanos will be on the cover," gets cake.

Discuss.

[Joe the Rat]

Only one thing to say: Jaraxle.


One more thing: The suggestion that it might work as an urban adventure sourcebook.

[Avonar]

Famed explorer Volothamp Geddarm needs you to complete a simple quest. Thus begins a mad romp through the wards of Waterdeep as you uncover a villainous plot involving some of the city’s most influential figures.

A grand urban caper awaits you. Pit your skill and bravado against villains the likes of which you’ve never faced before, and let the dragon hunt begin!

It's for levels 1-5, so either not quite as long or just much less combat. Either way I am totally up for this. Sounds very different to any of the other 5e adventures.

[Unoriginal]

Man, the artworks in this are just stellar.

[OzDragon]

It's for levels 1-5, so either not quite as long or just much less combat. Either way I am totally up for this. Sounds very different to any of the other 5e adventures.

I just wish it was for a slightly higher level. 1-5 for something this grand seems a bit low. 2-7 or 4-9 seems like a better level for this. At 1-5 the PCs don't really get to play with their toys much.

Characters of this low level really don't have many options in social situations either as they will not have any..."status" in the town.

Either way it's intriguing to me so I'll probably bump it up some.

[Beechgnome]

It makes me think the second book will be an Undermountain follow, for say levels 6 to 15. Pure dungeon crawl.

[Grear Bylls]

Who's the villain in the foreground? Could it be? No! It can't! It's the one... the only...





MEDIEVAL THANOS!!!!



Wait, I didn't even read the OP. Sorry that I saw that and had to comment before reading. Didn't mean to steal thine joke, Mr. Anagram

[HolyDraconus]

Boo. That's my two cents.

[2D8HP]

Urban?

Heist?

Levels 1-5?

JUST HURRY UP AND TAKE MY MONEY NOW!
(And please find me a DM who'll run it so I may experience it as a player).

[username1]

I'm super exited for this to come out but I do worry about a few things. When I first heard of it it sounded like a treasure hunt and they said you would be solving puzzles. But from the video it sounds like it's going to be just stopping the villain. I put more on the thread earlier: What-do-you-want-to-see-in-Waterdeep-Dragon-Heist

[EvilAnagram]

I just wish it was for a slightly higher level. 1-5 for something this grand seems a bit low. 2-7 or 4-9 seems like a better level for this. At 1-5 the PCs don't really get to play with their toys much.

Characters of this low level really don't have many options in social situations either as they will not have any..."status" in the town.

Either way it's intriguing to me so I'll probably bump it up some.

Levels 1-5 are the perfect levels for a heist. Too much higher, and you have reduced incentive to be sneaky or clever in your dealings, as you can probably force your way through most situations.

At these levels, you have Suggestion, Bardic Inspiration, Charm Person, Invisibility, Misty Step, Cunning Action, Step of the Wind, Beast Shape, and a slew of other abilities that specifically help you with being sneaky and/or socially capable. However, you aren't able to waltz in anywhere and have your way with everyone. You have to be strategic, tactical, and clever, which is what a heist should be about.

Honestly, while I'm disappointed that they're turning the Forgotten Realms dial up to 20 with a host of characters I don't care about from books I won't read by authors I don't like, this looks like an extremely well-designed adventure.

[Oramac]

Looks and sounds fantastic! I have only one major gripe with it: Levels 1 to 5. C'mon WOTC! Something like this should AT LEAST go to 10th level, if not higher.

[EvilAnagram]

Looks and sounds fantastic! I have only one major gripe with it: Levels 1 to 5. C'mon WOTC! Something like this should AT LEAST go to 10th level, if not higher.

See my reply just above yours. These are perfect levels for a heist.

[Nalistar]

So much for “MToF might mean a high level planar adventure next”. :/

Although the heist does sound cool, I had my hopes up for that.

[Millstone85]

Details on Thanos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP2UjAvWgFg

[Davrix]

Looking at CP talk about the new book makes me kind of laugh. He talks about how the clone spell, when used wants to kill you and as far as I know that has nothing to do with the 5th ed vs of the spell. Which is pretty much a back up copy save of your character.

[Envyus]

Looking at CP talk about the new book makes me kind of laugh. He talks about how the clone spell, when used wants to kill you and as far as I know that has nothing to do with the 5th ed vs of the spell. Which is pretty much a back up copy save of your character.

Originally if a the original was somehow restored after the Clone awakened, the Clone would hate the original.

Also Manshoon is a strange case were he created multiple clones and somehow they all awakened when he died rather then one at a time.

[Davrix]

Originally if a the original was somehow restored after the Clone awakened, the Clone would hate the original.

Also Manshoon is a strange case were he created multiple clones and somehow they all awakened when he died rather then one at a time.

I guess but he talks like its how the spell works normally in the video. I mean I figured it was an older version of the spell he is talking to but anyone new to 5th is going to be like derrr what or will have the wrong impression of what the spell does.

personlly my wizard has his locked away in a demi plane with a 6 month supply of food so that when he re-spawns he camps out and just makes a new one lol. My old little bunker.

[Millstone85]

What amuses me is that everyone called him Thanos,

but he was actually a Doombot.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/6w59o1q6kg5f3mxh/images/1-fd8a5f8124.jpg
Dragon Magazine #415, The Many Deaths of Manshoon

[Unoriginal]

What amuses me is that everyone called him Thanos,

but he was actually a Doombot.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/6w59o1q6kg5f3mxh/images/1-fd8a5f8124.jpg
Dragon Magazine #415, The Many Deaths of Manshoon

The Manshoon War sounds like the Clone Saga, though.

[Davrix]

Oh god he is a doombot

hahahhahaha

[Millstone85]

Next, the Xanathar:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NanqvM6aOxQ

You know, this is the third time 5e puts a beholder on a cover (MM, XGtE, and now W:DH). All three were credited as the Xanathar, though the MM one seems to be a different Xanathar. Still, they really love that character.

[Rfkannen]

Looks like a lot of fun! I have never dmed any of the 5e modules before, and I think I might try it with this one!

Now I am looking forward to all the info on waterdeep, but I am still slightly sad that is it so setting dependent, most of the time I like to refluff modules into my own homebrew settings, and it would be a bit weird to just suddenly have waterdeep show up in there. I mean, it would be weird to do what they did in the elemental adventure and say how ot do it in alternate settings, they would basically have to remake the book for each setting. So this one I will run as in the forgotten realms, and who knows, I have never played (as player or dm) in a published setting before, It could be fun!

[ProsecutorGodot]

My inquisitive Rogue is ready and waiting.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone who guessed, "Thanos will be on the cover," gets cake.

Discuss. Thuck Fanos. I will for sure get this adventure.

Urban?

Heist?

Levels 1-5?

JUST HURRY UP AND TAKE MY MONEY NOW!

(And please find me a DM who'll run it so I may experience it as a player).
When I get it I will invite you to join our roll20 group. :smallbiggrin:

[2D8HP]

Thuck Fanos. I will for sure get this adventure.

When I get it I will invite you to join our roll20 group. :smallbiggrin:


Awesome!!!

[LordEntrails]

It's for levels 1-5, so either not quite as long or just much less combat. Either way I am totally up for this. Sounds very different to any of the other 5e adventures.
I'm sure all the Guild Adepts will be providing adventures for higher levels. To me, this is pretty much just a settings book with some simple plot hooks and adventure ideas fleshed out enough to get a DM started.


It makes me think the second book will be an Undermountain follow, for say levels 6 to 15. Pure dungeon crawl.
Not sure about the levels, but yea, Catacombs will be Undermountain. I'm betting on it, have been for a year now and it's why I've been working on Ultimate Undermountain (http://www.facebook.com/UltimateUndermountain) :)

[Beechgnome]

It's official: part two is Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage.

https://twitter.com/dndbeyond/status/1003099647680831488?s=21

Edit: of note, Perkins says it goes from level 6 to 20. There's your high level adventure.

[Unoriginal]

Looks like a lot of fun! I have never dmed any of the 5e modules before, and I think I might try it with this one!

Now I am looking forward to all the info on waterdeep, but I am still slightly sad that is it so setting dependent, most of the time I like to refluff modules into my own homebrew settings, and it would be a bit weird to just suddenly have waterdeep show up in there. I mean, it would be weird to do what they did in the elemental adventure and say how ot do it in alternate settings, they would basically have to remake the book for each setting. So this one I will run as in the forgotten realms, and who knows, I have never played (as player or dm) in a published setting before, It could be fun!


It shouldn't be that hard to re-fluff the place into any big metropolis.

Just modifying the map some, changing the description to have a different architecture, etc.

[Millstone85]

New videos:

Mirt the Moneylender in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYBj2xWtaSc)

Durnan and The Yawning Portal in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12M3Uo6L4Xc)

Jarlaxle in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkN1RBWpv9I)

Meet the Cassalanters in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOz40OQU8Ik)

Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage Takes You to Undermountain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbVRQIOuI8s)

Learn more about Halaster in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Pdnd9PACs)

[Unoriginal]

Meet the Cassalanters in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOz40OQU8Ik)



Perkins: "What makes [the Cassalanters] unique is that they know how to play the game."

Oh ****, they actually read the rulebooks.

We're doomed, against such unique trait.

[Millstone85]

Perkins: "What makes [the Cassalanters] unique is that they know how to play the game."

Oh ****, they actually read the rulebooks.

We're doomed, against such unique trait.Good one! :smallbiggrin:

I have to say, the covers are sumptuous. And I love how they parallel each other.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DevIQXNUYAAoX0U.jpg

The adventures themselves will share the theme of having multiple villains in one location. I don't remember if it was suggested you could ally with one in W:DH, but that will be a thing in W:DotMM, which is awesome.

I have only bought one adventure module so far (appropriately, TftYP) but I am getting really excited here.

Who do you think the death tyrant is? It wouldn't surprise me if it were a former Xanathar, perhaps the Eye itself.

[EvilAnagram]

These definitely look like well-written adventures. They put a lot of effort into them, and they're looking great, even if they are sticking to the Realms.

I especially like the Mad Mage, as that looks like it's just a well-designed dungeon crawl instead of a tour of all the cheesy villains they've built up over the years.

[HolyDraconus]

Now that I let it marinate a little I got a couple of questions to ask.

What's the point of MToF if the very next season of book(s) is MORE Faerun? ESPECIALLY since the " 5e is setting neutral" buzz is still being touted AND is a straight up stipulation on DM's Guild when creating content? Like, At this point, anyone saying that 5e ISNT Faerun is just lying. Period. Tossing random NPCs from other settings into places and saying "we're inclusive" doesn't fly anymore. 5e IS Forgotten Realms. Its not like they could have, I dunno, chosen Stormreach from Eberron, or the Free City of Greyhawk from derr, or Nibenay from Dark Sun or even Haven from DragonLance.
If none of those places sound familiar, congrats, cause the rate that 5e is going its going to stay that way. And that's a shame. Specially since they do NOT want people creating content for the other settings. Plus, with Adventurer's League being as it is, a wizard that worships Majere makes no sense, since none of the other party members would know who the hell that is, or how you even got there.

And before someone jumps up, no, I'm not bashing the new season's books. Halaster BlackCloak and another Beholder isn't a bad thing. But they could have waited. 5e has been out four 4 years now. And as it stands, the closest we (being everyone that has played and enjoyed any other setting besides FR) have gotten to any acknowledgement is literally footnotes. Ironically enough, the we in my previous statement HAS to have played prior editions, which is the closest I'm willing to say DND faithfuls without coming out and saying it. I know players that have only played 5e. But they know who Drizzt is. When I ask them do they know who Tanis or Raistlin is however, all I get is blank stares. That's me personally. I can only imagine how the others for the other settings must get from similar stories.
And no, you can't just slap 5e over the setting and call it done. Eberron's Houses need more than that. The Sorceror Kings need more than that. The other settings NEED more than that. And with NO official guidance, and more cash grab attempts, I don't think this is leading to a good ending.

[Unoriginal]

What's the point of MToF if the very next season of book(s) is MORE Faerun?

Providing interesting lore and diverse monsters, of higher CR in particular.


Like, At this point, anyone saying that 5e ISNT Faerun is just lying. Period.


No. Period.


5e IS Forgotten Realms.

No, it's not.

Adventure modules =/= the game.



And before someone jumps up, no, I'm not bashing the new season's books.

Oh, no, you're just bashing 5e as a whole.


And as it stands, the closest we (being everyone that has played and enjoyed any other setting besides FR) have gotten to any acknowledgement is literally footnotes.

Nope. There's whole paragrapes, especially in the Mordenkainen's.



Ironically enough, the we in my previous statement HAS to have played prior editions, which is the closest I'm willing to say DND faithfuls without coming out and saying it. I know players that have only played 5e. But they know who Drizzt is.

[QUOTE=HolyDraconus;23122986]When I ask them do they know who Tanis or Raistlin is however, all I get is blank stares.

Maybe because Dragonlance is really not that well known even among people who actually played other editions?




And no, you can't just slap 5e over the setting and call it done.

You seem pretty content with just slapping 5e, though.


and more cash grab attempts

Yeah, I'm sure those beautifully illustrated, complexe adventures about the intertwined plots of several villains in various urban and dungeony environments is nothing but a cash grab attempt.

What did you say about "not bashing the new season's books", again?




I don't think this is leading to a good ending.

It's not going to lead to an ending, so you're technically correct.


I'm sorry the setting you like is not being explored by a book, but denying the facts is not worthwhile to anyone.

[Darkbru]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I’ve only been playing 5e for about 5 months now. But is this a book that’s already in existence or is it a new book coming out that I can preorder at my local shop?

[War_lord]

You know, at least when an Eberron fan indulges in this conspiracy theory they can say that their preferred setting actually has a unique world and a preexisting fanbase. Who under the age of 40 is pining for Dragonlance of all things?


Sorry if this is a silly question, but I’ve only been playing 5e for about 5 months now. But is this a book that’s already in existence or is it a new book coming out that I can preorder at my local shop?

Announced means coming out some time in the next few months.

[HolyDraconus]

Providing interesting lore and diverse monsters, of higher CR in particular. Then why not call it "Drizzt's Tome of Foes"? Or are you choosing to ignore that the name was picked solely because it was an attempt to show that it isn't just all faerun, all the time?




No. Period. Show me how to make a red tower mage from dragon lance in 5e without resorting to homebrew. You can't. How about the Dragon Mark from the Houses of Eberron? You Can't. Sorry, but this is wrong.




No, it's not. Oh hey look! Its Solamn..... no wait.. Faerun. Nevermind, its Xend... no wait, still Faerun. Your statement here is lacking proof.


Adventure modules =/= the game. Which is worse, since atleast the modules used to attempt actual true neutrality.




Oh, no, you're just bashing 5e as a whole. In order for that to be true, 5e has to be FR. sooo which is it?




Nope. There's whole paragrapes, especially in the Mordenkainen's. No mechanics. No history. Extremely minor lore. Sounds like a foot note.


Maybe because Dragonlance is really not that well known even among people who actually played other editions? That wouldn't happen to be because its all FR all the time now would it? And I listed other settings besides Dragonlance. Your statement still falls flat.





You seem pretty content with just slapping 5e, though. Is this a debate or are you trying to provoke someone? It doesn't seem civil regardless.




Yeah, I'm sure those beautifully illustrated, complexe adventures about the intertwined plots of several villains in various urban and dungeony environments is nothing but a cash grab attempt. Explain to me how this book couldn't have been strapped into another book? Like the one immediately following it? Also, explain how DnD Beyond, which was implemented not too long ago, doesn't charge you for a book that you already physically own.


What did you say about "not bashing the new season's books", again? I didn't. Pointing out the lack of support for other settings isn't bashing. Unless of course, that's how you view bashing. In which case I don't know what to say to you.





It's not going to lead to an ending, so you're technically correct.


I'm sorry the setting you like is not being explored by a book, but denying the facts is not worthwhile to anyone.
The fact is, which you seem to gloss over repeatedly, is that 5e is NOT setting neutral as WotC wants it content creators and its playerbase to believe. And its not just MY setting. There are several, that I even listed some, that exist and have a base of players for. But considering that this is the same company that mutilated a game on Eberron to become Faerun should of been a warning bell to those that aren't enamored by the FR that their settings wouldn't be handled with the respect that they garnered and deserved. I'm not saying FR is BAD. What I am saying is that if you are only going to DO FR, then SAY IT. In every avenue that I have pursued, it was touted that 5e is for ALL DND settings. Its not. It can be. But right now, as it is, everyone that a fan of ANYTHING other than FR has to do an ENORMOUS amount of changing, deleting, retconning, and straight up porting from previous editions; which is starting to sound more and more like the simpler thing to do would be to just play those other editions. For those that only care about FR, I guess you can that isn't your problem, and you're right. But to say the board is even isn't close to the true. To say that other settings are explored is also false.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I’ve only been playing 5e for about 5 months now. But is this a book that’s already in existence or is it a new book coming out that I can preorder at my local shop?

It's an upcoming new book. Can't say I know if it can be pre-ordered yet, but I don't think so. Ask your local shop in any case.

[War_lord]

So why are setting nerds so gloriously unhinged?

[SociopathFriend]

So why are setting nerds so gloriously unhinged?

Because it's not their setting.

[Derpaligtr]

I just wish it was for a slightly higher level. 1-5 for something this grand seems a bit low. 2-7 or 4-9 seems like a better level for this. At 1-5 the PCs don't really get to play with their toys much.

Characters of this low level really don't have many options in social situations either as they will not have any..."status" in the town.

Either way it's intriguing to me so I'll probably bump it up some.

Don't let level dictate story. Level is an arbitrary number that has no in game world analog.

You can have status at a low level, heck, there's a noble background!

What level was Simba when he went to face Scar? He beat the king, but had zero experience at fighting or being a king or like anything other than being a lazy step son. At best he was like level 1 prince? This lion who has no status anymore, no experience, and no real plan (other than "defeat uncle"... I mean, they didn't even have a plan to get past the guards before they got there...).

Nah. Level should have no baring on status or story in D&D, just like in plenty of other fictional work.

[Deathtongue]

Nah. Level should have no baring on status or story in D&D, just like in plenty of other fictional work.This is a terrible idea. Do not listen to this advice, going down this road in a game like D&D leads to DMs throwing hissy fits how effects like teleportation are overpowered and ruin their potboiler TOTALLY ORIGINAL Fanfic Campaign because they're unable to adapt to any paradigm more complicated than Conan the Barbarian.

EDIT: That last paragraph was presumptious on my part, but c'mon. Everyone knows that for every DM that will let you run roughshod over their campaign by using mid or high level abilities in ways they didn't anticipate there are at least TWELVE DMs who get mad and go on a nerf-spree because you dared have your characters do things that, say, Madmartigan and Jaime Lannister couldn't do in their narratives.

[Elistan]

This is a terrible idea. Do not listen to this advice, going down this road in a game like D&D leads to DMs throwing hissy fits how effects like teleportation are overpowered and ruin their potboiler TOTALLY ORIGINAL Fanfic Campaign because they're unable to adapt to any paradigm more complicated than Conan the Barbarian.

EDIT: That last paragraph was presumptious on my part, but c'mon. Everyone knows that for every DM that will let you run roughshod over their campaign by using mid or high level abilities in ways they didn't anticipate there are at least TWELVE DMs who get mad and go on a nerf-spree because you dared have your characters do things that, say, Madmartigan and Jaime Lannister couldn't do in their narratives.

I don't believe that was the point being made at all. I think the point was that just because this is a low level adventure, that doesn't mean that it can't be a grand tale with dramatic consequences. I believe what Derpaligtr was saying above was that you shouldn't necessarily use party level to determine the scope of the adventure, and should instead tell the story you want to tell, even if it's an epic story with low-level characters.

[Smitty Wesson]

I love the idea of a heist adventure, and I love having another level 1-5 adventure. So, I am pretty happy with this.

[username1]

Same. It's going to be awsome to get another low level adventure. It lets the book have WAY more content. With the other adventures sometimes there's so little content as they stretch it for so many levels. This is also perfect timing as I'm in the middle of writing a 3 session heist mission. I was making this to re-introduce dnd to some friends. I'll put it up on Dms guild for free for anyone who wants to do a heist early before it comes out.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The fact is, which you seem to gloss over repeatedly, is that 5e is NOT setting neutral as WotC wants it content creators and its playerbase to believe. And its not just MY setting. There are several, that I even listed some, that exist and have a base of players for. But considering that this is the same company that mutilated a game on Eberron to become Faerun should of been a warning bell to those that aren't enamored by the FR that their settings wouldn't be handled with the respect that they garnered and deserved. I'm not saying FR is BAD. What I am saying is that if you are only going to DO FR, then SAY IT. In every avenue that I have pursued, it was touted that 5e is for ALL DND settings. Its not. It can be. But right now, as it is, everyone that a fan of ANYTHING other than FR has to do an ENORMOUS amount of changing, deleting, retconning, and straight up porting from previous editions; which is starting to sound more and more like the simpler thing to do would be to just play those other editions. For those that only care about FR, I guess you can that isn't your problem, and you're right. But to say the board is even isn't close to the true. To say that other settings are explored is also false.

I know Curse of Strahd is a little old at this point but it's actually setting neutral, Ravenloft is a demiplane of dread that was never given an exact location, all we know is that at some point it exists in the prime material plane. Tales from the Yawning portal specifically pulls from older settings and editions, even telling you that you can simply replace the Yawning Portal tavern with ANY notable tavern in the multiverse, with a specific example of the Green Dragon Inn in Greyhawk. The freedom to explore any other setting is there.

I know it's not what you want, but other settings actually are explicitly mentioned and explored. The amount of work you need to do to make the game mechanics fit into a different setting is nowhere near as difficult as you claim.

Sure, most of the published adventures happen in FR but there's almost nothing stopping you from using 5E to play an Eberron or Greyhawk campaign. The mechanics aren't tied to the setting.

[Glorthindel]

The fact is, which you seem to gloss over repeatedly, is that 5e is NOT setting neutral as WotC wants it content creators and its playerbase to believe. And its not just MY setting. There are several, that I even listed some, that exist and have a base of players for.

To be honest, as a lover on many past settings, I am kinda glad that the current developers are only getting their greasy fingerprints all over the Realms (with a slight smearing on Ravenloft). As a Dragonlance fan I would be dreading to see how they would completely hack Draconians apart in order to fit Dragonborn in, and I shudder at what hamfisted method they would use to wedge the Raven Queen into all the other settings.

[Derpaligtr]

I don't believe that was the point being made at all. I think the point was that just because this is a low level adventure, that doesn't mean that it can't be a grand tale with dramatic consequences. I believe what Derpaligtr was saying above was that you shouldn't necessarily use party level to determine the scope of the adventure, and should instead tell the story you want to tell, even if it's an epic story with low-level characters.

Bingo.

Using level to dictate story means you're going to play the same thing over and over and over... As many times as people restart at low levels (and don't get past level 10), screw that. Uncharted is one of my favorite series amd it's pretty much D&D modern slippery naked men, zombie-shambala, djin-hookahs, and bloody pirates with a level 3 to 5 rogue (expertise athletics and history). Age and time doesn't equate level after all and he can fall a short distance or get hit a few times without dying... But he can't replicate a high level adventurer you know (falling from orbit, or shriugging off looks). Uncharted would suuuuck if he had to deal with "low level stories". Nah, this guy gets the huge awesome stories even if his skill set would be quite low level 5e. Scope and prestige are only connected to level if you make them connected to level.

If you want to say level = level and you can't compare level to no level character (which people try to build all the time soo...), then look at Final Fantasy, you can beat a majority of them at level 30 or below. With a cap of 100 (D&D has a cap of 20) that's like a level 6-7 D&D character! Going up against Ultimecia, Kefka, Chaos, and Ardyn as a low level character still makes those stories and games awesome.

I think the issue is that for so long people have equated low level = low scope, in D&D, that if you throw anything else out there prople won't know how to handle it.

People also equate "lots of features" to high level. No, your favorite book character isn't level 20 just because he has a million features. His class is himself and it's probably a low level Mary Sue homebrew class going on epic adventures. You do get more features as you level, but many book or mpvie character aren't playing by the same rules.

[EvilAnagram]

Sure, most of the published adventures happen in FR but there's almost nothing stopping you from using 5E to play an Eberron or Greyhawk campaign. The mechanics aren't tied to the setting.
With respect, 5e does not have all the mechanics for an Eberron game. You can't just slide it on top. Dragonmarks, warforged, changelings, shifters, and specific stat blocks for major villains would all need to be homebrewed, as would a slew of approaches to magical technology. Similarly, Dark Sun would also require a significant investment of time and energy into homebrewing to be recognizable as Dark Sun.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with homebrewing your own approach to these settings, but it's just wrong to say that 5e supports either setting.

Which brings me to:


So why are setting nerds so gloriously unhinged?
Because the game doesn't support settings that have been consistently popular since their inception. By not supporting this, they kill the settings moving forward. New people don't try them out, old people who don't have time between work and life to come up with homebrew move on, and the few diehard fans willing to tackle the task of homebrewing these settings are spread out and have difficulty putting games together. WotC makes it more difficult by preventing people from sharing official setting homebrew on DMsGuild. People like these settings, and they're dying.

[darknite]

Looks like fun and a good reason to use some classes not often used - inquisitives, masterminds, etc.

[INDYSTAR188]

Looks like fun and a good reason to use some classes not often used - inquisitives, masterminds, etc.

Absolutely agree. I'm excited to see what the two books have to offer!

[Pyramid Pug]

I'm a big fan of the Forgotten Realms setting and it's the one I enjoy the most, both in terms of lore, gameplay and books.

That said, I think a better approach would be to release generic books that could be genuinely applied to any setting and then release setting specific lore books, maybe with print on demand for physical editions to cut on publication costs. My own personal fanboyism of FR aside, D&D is above all about imagination and the telling of a tale, and reducing publications to the one most popular setting limits that very imagination.

On a more personal level, this is why me and my group love source and lore books, but don't like adventure modules. We're here to run our own story, not a pre-approved tale that sticks to company policy and their vision as to what players and DMs should and shouldn't do (no offence meant to those that enjoy them, if you like, you like, you don't need to justify your enjoyment to no one).

[Oramac]

See my reply just above yours. These are perfect levels for a heist.

I agree, to an extent. I think STARTING a heist campaign at 1st level is fine. I just think ending it at 4-5th level is shortchanging the players and DM of a lot of potentially fun shenanigans.

That being said, I just now saw that Mad Mage is apparently supposed to go from 6th to 20th level. That seems like a solid follow up.

[2D8HP]

To be honest, as a lover on many past settings, I am kinda glad that the current developers are only getting their greasy fingerprints all over the Realms (with a slight smearing on Ravenloft). As a Dragonlance fan I would be dreading to see how they would completely hack Draconians apart in order to fit Dragonborn in, and I shudder at what hamfisted method they would use to wedge the Raven Queen into all the other settings.


I'm generally with you, 'cept about the Raven Queen, 'cause the Raven Queen is totally smokin' hawt!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9S2wilm6xvM/WTOAqrilzJI/AAAAAAAALwI/wmYopwgBLXE4h29HzrusYQSkIzkYzhSCgCK4B/s400/raven_queen.jpg
But... in MToF's, no one actually seems to see her much, and when they do they're comfronted with their innermost fears, plus her servants, the Shadar-Kai look old and withered in her realm, and she herself born from a "ruined mind and body", so.....

...may be not so hawt. :annoyed:

At least the name is cool

[Derpaligtr]

I agree, to an extent. I think STARTING a heist campaign at 1st level is fine. I just think ending it at 4-5th level is shortchanging the players and DM of a lot of potentially fun shenanigans.

That being said, I just now saw that Mad Mage is apparently supposed to go from 6th to 20th level. That seems like a solid follow up.

I mean, if you're going "Ocean's Whatever", you could easily do it with "whatever" many level 2 rogues with some great success.

With a +8 in each of their area of expertise (heh) there isn't much they can't do. I mean, a roll of a 10 gets you hitting the hard difficulty.

Also, if your DM is running off the rails of this adventure, you could forgo XP and only level your team up via milestones. This way you can run around and take your time doing weird stuff from level 1 to 6.

[LordEntrails]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I’ve only been playing 5e for about 5 months now. But is this a book that’s already in existence or is it a new book coming out that I can preorder at my local shop?
DH in September, MM in November.

You can always look them up on Amazon to see the dates. Just know that your local game store (if part of Wizards Play Network) and DDB and FG will release about 2 weeks earlier than Amazon is allowed to release/ship them.

[Unoriginal]

Then why not call it "Drizzt's Tome of Foes"? Or are you choosing to ignore that the name was picked solely because it was an attempt to show that it isn't just all faerun, all the time?

Stop with the bs. It's called Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes because Mordenkainen and the concepts dear to him are in the book.



Show me how to make a red tower mage from dragon lance in 5e without resorting to homebrew. You can't. How about the Dragon Mark from the Houses of Eberron? You Can't. Sorry, but this is wrong.

"Setting neutral" doesn't mean "pandering to the settings HolyDraconus want". It means "setting neutral". So thanks for proving my point.




Oh hey look! Its Solamn..... no wait.. Faerun. Nevermind, its Xend... no wait, still Faerun. Your statement here is lacking proof.

That's literally non-sequitur nonsense.




In order for that to be true, 5e has to be FR. sooo which is it?


Again, stop with the transparent bs. You're bashing 5e by declaring it to be FR and calling people who say the contrary liars.




No mechanics. No history. Extremely minor lore. Sounds like a foot note.


Sounds like you don't know what a footnote is, then.



That wouldn't happen to be because its all FR all the time now would it? And I listed other settings besides Dragonlance. Your statement still falls flat.


So you're saying that Dragonlance or any of those other settings were popular, but then 5e happened and that's what killed their groove?



Is this a debate or are you trying to provoke someone? It doesn't seem civil regardless.


You were pretty clear you didn't want civil with your first post. Inflammatory posts are made to provoke people, not thoughts.




Explain to me how this book couldn't have been strapped into another book? Like the one immediately following it? Also, explain how DnD Beyond, which was implemented not too long ago, doesn't charge you for a book that you already physically own.

There's a difference between a cash grab and making money out of your work.

This adventure is likely too big to be combined with another one inside only one book (unless you want a 600 pages adventure module, I guesss). I don't know the stuff with D&D Beyond, but I don't get what you mean



The fact is, which you seem to gloss over repeatedly, is that 5e is NOT setting neutral as WotC wants it content creators and its playerbase to believe.

It's not a fact, it's just something you pretend.


You could say "FR is the only setting that has been truly supported so far in the additional books", which would be true. But 5e is NOT FR, and never will be.

Its default setting differs in several places from the FR assumptions. They published a whole setting guide saying where it's different.

Should they have published other settings' guide? Probably. It'd have been nice, if anything. But the D&D staff is small and they probably don't have the manpower to do a new setting book AND keep up the rest.

So argue that WotC is not giving the support other settings need all you want, but by all the gods and their angels people need to stop with that "5e is FR" bs.




Because the game doesn't support settings that have been consistently popular since their inception. By not supporting this, they kill the settings moving forward. New people don't try them out, old people who don't have time between work and life to come up with homebrew move on, and the few diehard fans willing to tackle the task of homebrewing these settings are spread out and have difficulty putting games together. WotC makes it more difficult by preventing people from sharing official setting homebrew on DMsGuild. People like these settings, and they're dying.

Not going to dispute your arguments or anything, but just wanted to point out: that wording kind of implies you do agree the fans are gloriously unhinged.

[Oramac]

With a +8 in each of their area of expertise (heh) there isn't much they can't do. I mean, a roll of a 10 gets you hitting the hard difficulty.

That's more or less my point, actually. With that kind of skill, the players can attempt, and most likely succeed, at things that would be literally impossible for them in real life. And isn't that part of the fun of the game? Being able to do things you can't do in your daily life?

[Derpaligtr]

That's more or less my point, actually. With that kind of skill, the players can attempt, and most likely succeed, at things that would be literally impossible for them in real life. And isn't that part of the fun of the game? Being able to do things you can't do in your daily life?

See, there's a big problem here (D&D) that people have.

D&D is not real life. It's not even a good simulation of real life, I figured the talking dragons would clue people in on that. The attachment to a false realism is very much against what D&D is. Even for martial characters, they are so far beyond "real life".

Fall down a set of stairs in D&D? 1d6-ish damage. Fall down a set of stairs in real life? Broken ribs or worse. But that HP is a class feature that these fantasy characters gain that is a representation of luck, meat, and whatever else. A D&D character eould have to try in order to die when falling down one set of stairs, one set of stairs can easily kill a person in real life.

This is why level shouldn't dictate story. A level 1 character isn't a normal human from real world earth. Hell, they can swing around a sword all day and not get tired, that's some black magic (in the real world) right there. Lebron James is one of the most fit athletes in, forever, and even that man gets tired. A level 1 fighter makes LeBron James look like someone who gets winded easily.

Level can dictate story if that's what specific groups want, however, level shouldn't have to.


Honestly, I think level is an archaic construct that isn't needed. If you tie a sense of progression into the story or the abilities characters has (don't always give more abilities, just expand on what you got) you can get away from the idea that you need to have an arbitrary number associated with your character. I mean, what level is Laura Croft? Nathan Drake? Mario? Samus? Booker DeWitt? None of these characters have levels (Mario has levels in the RPG series, but not his main line series, well, not those types of levels) and yet still convey a sense of progression. The sense of progression is either getting new stuff that expands on your core abilities, the story gets crazy, or you just get better at playing (not because of numbers, but because you know what to do).

Meh, I'm rambling, sorry, I need to write all this out and get things clear haha.

[EvilAnagram]

Not going to dispute your arguments or anything, but just wanted to point out: that wording kind of implies you do agree the fans are gloriously unhinged.
The beauty of arguing about Dungeons & Dragons on the internet is that all sides are gloriously unhinged!

[War_lord]

Because the game doesn't support settings that have been consistently popular since their inception. By not supporting this, they kill the settings moving forward. New people don't try them out, old people who don't have time between work and life to come up with homebrew move on, and the few diehard fans willing to tackle the task of homebrewing these settings are spread out and have difficulty putting games together. WotC makes it more difficult by preventing people from sharing official setting homebrew on DMsGuild. People like these settings, and they're dying.

Popular with a minority, the majority of games I see online are either following the published adventures, or are entirely original creations. If the settings actually had enough of a market for it to be worth putting out setting exclusive material, WoTC would have done that already. Part of the reason TSR went under (one of many) is because they frequently ignored the business side of things (putting out what people will buy) in favor of lots and lots of settings, which had the effect of splitting their audience into factions who'd only buy books attached to "their" setting.

A profusion of settings is terrible marketing practice, maybe it makes some fans happy, but it hurts sales. And it's not at all clear that people are willing to try new settings, Eberron was purpose tailored to appeal to people who dislike standard D&D, it received a huge marketing push from WoTC to try to make it the 3rd edition setting. It still lagged behind FR in popularity despite all that support.

[EvilAnagram]

Popular with a minority, the majority of games I see online are either following the published adventures, or are entirely original creations.
That has no bearing on my argument. Of course the majority of online games are not taking place in settings that aren't being supported. The entire point of my post was that not supporting them kills them.


If the settings actually had enough of a market for it to be worth putting out setting exclusive material, WoTC would have done that already.
That's not necessarily true. Outside adventure modules, Wizards has been exclusively releasing the safest material possible (splats and monster tomes with a bit of lore thrown in), and that's worked very well financially. However, it does not necessarily follow that a book must have the widest possible audience to be profitable. Besides, both Dark Sun and Eberron would necessarily include player options that would put them on par with SCAG in terms of player draw.


Part of the reason TSR went under (one of many) is because they frequently ignored the business side of things (putting out what people will buy) in favor of lots and lots of settings, which had the effect of splitting their audience into factions who'd only buy books attached to "their" setting.

There is a wide gulf between "releasing so many settings that it splits and disrupts your player base" and "releasing more than one setting."

[SiCK_Boy]

Level can dictate story if that's what specific groups want, however, level shouldn't have to.

Honestly, I think level is an archaic construct that isn't needed. If you tie a sense of progression into the story or the abilities characters has (don't always give more abilities, just expand on what you got) you can get away from the idea that you need to have an arbitrary number associated with your character. I mean, what level is Laura Croft? Nathan Drake? Mario? Samus? Booker DeWitt? None of these characters have levels (Mario has levels in the RPG series, but not his main line series, well, not those types of levels) and yet still convey a sense of progression. The sense of progression is either getting new stuff that expands on your core abilities, the story gets crazy, or you just get better at playing (not because of numbers, but because you know what to do).



It's not so much "what specific groups" want rather than the fact that the entire game rules are built around this notion of level progressions being tied to character power / abilities, and creatures having specific mechanical sets of abilities. The game designers even used "level tiers" to describe the kind of stories that are better told with characters of a given level (don't send level 1 characters to kill gods and deal with interplanar invasions, for example).

People sometimes circumvent the problem by using milestone progressions instead of XP (so characters abilities progress when needed by the story, rather than based on actual granular accounting of all defeated challenges), but getting rid of levels completely is way too much trouble than it would be worth.

How would you determine how many spell slots a spellcaster has without levels? When / how does that player acquires those slots? What about number of attacks for a martial PC?

The reference to some video game characters is wrong, because those games happen in a closed environment and the game developers had full control of the entire world experience during game creation. Mario did not need to "level up" in the original Super Mario game because all monsters died to a single hit anyway. D&D monsters are not built this way. Your suggestion would require such a massive change to the entire game system that it would not be D&D 5th edition anymore... is it really worth the trouble?

[2D8HP]

Bingo.

Using level to dictate story means you're going to play the same thing over and over and over... As many times as people restart at low levels (and don't get past level 10), screw that. Uncharted is one of my favorite series amd it's pretty much D&D modern slippery naked men, zombie-shambala, djin-hookahs, and bloody pirates .


Is that the Fantasy Lewis & Clark novel (https://www.baen.com/uncharted.html)?

I saw it on the shelf this week, it looked cool and I hope to read it when it comes out in paperback, or to the library.

[werescythe]

I just wish it was for a slightly higher level. 1-5 for something this grand seems a bit low. 2-7 or 4-9 seems like a better level for this. At 1-5 the PCs don't really get to play with their toys much.

Characters of this low level really don't have many options in social situations either as they will not have any..."status" in the town.

Either way it's intriguing to me so I'll probably bump it up some.

I'm sure there are ways a good GM could adjust it to a higher level party.

[Unoriginal]

Is that the Fantasy Lewis & Clark novel (https://www.baen.com/uncharted.html)?

I saw it on the shelf this week, it looked cool and I hope to read it when it comes out in paperback, or to the library.

I think Derpaligtr was talking about the Uncharted video game series, which is mostly about Nathan Drake, treasure hunter in an Earth similar to ours, except there is actually curses and supernatural stuff, as well as a lot more deadly temples than in real life.

[2D8HP]

I think Derpaligtr was talking about the Uncharted video game series, which is mostly about Nathan Drake, treasure hunter in an Earth similar to ours, except there is actually curses and supernatural stuff, as well as a lot more deadly temples than in real life.


Oh.

Thanks.

I really should learn to assume that most of the time when someone posts about something that's completely new to me it's either anime or video games that they're referencing.

[Unoriginal]

Stream of Many Eyes video, more info about Dragon Heist


https://youtu.be/G9HvkTe9UQQ

Highlights:

-There is a lot of sidequests that might cause the PCs to get side-tracked, and making them lose time to reach the treasure and result in the villains getting it. It's not a quick race-against-time either, though, there is plenty of breathing room.

-The book is meant to give you all you need to run other Waterdeep adventures

-Downtimes are built-in the adventure. Managing your affairs is expected.

- It also contains new downtime activities, including running and developing a tavern.

-There could be long time skips in the adventure if the DM wishes to.

-Use mechanics from the Xanathar's, notably rival NPCs.

-Use and expansion of chase rules

-New magic items (including the Black Staff)

-New NPCs stat block (including the Black Staff, and kaiju-sized statues)

-Volo's Tour of Waterdeep

-Can be a short or long, depending on how much material you want to use.

-There is a submarine

-Using the city and its law to your advantage can benefit you.

-List of guilds and factions, and how you can be linked and gain favor with them

-Attention given to allow weird parties to work in the adventure.

-Random urban events

-DMs modifying the city to their liking and make it their own is expected.

-Flex dem creative problem solving muscles.

[Oramac]

I'm sure there are ways a good GM could adjust it to a higher level party.

Of course. Even a bad DM (like me) can modify it for different levels. My point is, they shouldn't have to.

[Merellis]

AHHHHH

The person who did Blood In Chocolate did some level design for the megadungeon. :smallbiggrin:

I AM SO DOWN FOR THIS

[Derpaligtr]

It's not so much "what specific groups" want rather than the fact that the entire game rules are built around this notion of level progressions being tied to character power / abilities, and creatures having specific mechanical sets of abilities. The game designers even used "level tiers" to describe the kind of stories that are better told with characters of a given level (don't send level 1 characters to kill gods and deal with interplanar invasions, for example).

People sometimes circumvent the problem by using milestone progressions instead of XP (so characters abilities progress when needed by the story, rather than based on actual granular accounting of all defeated challenges), but getting rid of levels completely is way too much trouble than it would be worth.

How would you determine how many spell slots a spellcaster has without levels? When / how does that player acquires those slots? What about number of attacks for a martial PC?

The reference to some video game characters is wrong, because those games happen in a closed environment and the game developers had full control of the entire world experience during game creation. Mario did not need to "level up" in the original Super Mario game because all monsters died to a single hit anyway. D&D monsters are not built this way. Your suggestion would require such a massive change to the entire game system that it would not be D&D 5th edition anymore... is it really worth the trouble?

The game is based arpund the idea of level = difficulty in relation to time spent playing.

You can have a story be about, anything, at any level.

You're first level adventurers and you get wind of a plot to assasinate a king during a parade. How did you get wind? No one takes no names like you seriously. Did you tell anyone? Sure but you was thrown out by the guards.

So you start to investigate about the plot against the king. You make yourself up to a rooftop that has an illusion covering it. This illusion is actually being held together by a ritual being performed by 5 devils. You trace the magic energy to one of the devils (branching pathways).

You kill one of the devils and the jig is up. The other devils go back to their plane of existence and the sniper is found out.

For helping to save the king, your characters are awarded land, titles, and money.

All at level 1. You could make it a bone devil, one that is being distracted by holding up the spell, that the level 1 characters could fight. Use the 16 HP dragon tactics.

Level does not equate to story. Level just equates to how much stuff your character has.

Following the level = story design just holds back so much storytelling amd is lazy.

[JoeJ]

With respect, 5e does not have all the mechanics for an Eberron game. You can't just slide it on top. Dragonmarks, warforged, changelings, shifters, and specific stat blocks for major villains would all need to be homebrewed, as would a slew of approaches to magical technology. Similarly, Dark Sun would also require a significant investment of time and energy into homebrewing to be recognizable as Dark Sun.

To be fair, the PHB & DMG don't have all the mechanics for a Forgotten Realms game either. To get things like battleragers, ghostwise halflings, long death monks, crown paladins, undying warlocks, or bladesingers you have to get SCAG - a setting book.

I can't say how much time and effort is required to create the mechanics you need for your favorite setting, but it only took me a few minutes to homebrew spelljamming rules.

[SiCK_Boy]

The game is based arpund the idea of level = difficulty in relation to time spent playing.

You can have a story be about, anything, at any level.

You're first level adventurers and you get wind of a plot to assasinate a king during a parade. How did you get wind? No one takes no names like you seriously. Did you tell anyone? Sure but you was thrown out by the guards.

So you start to investigate about the plot against the king. You make yourself up to a rooftop that has an illusion covering it. This illusion is actually being held together by a ritual being performed by 5 devils. You trace the magic energy to one of the devils (branching pathways).

You kill one of the devils and the jig is up. The other devils go back to their plane of existence and the sniper is found out.

For helping to save the king, your characters are awarded land, titles, and money.

All at level 1. You could make it a bone devil, one that is being distracted by holding up the spell, that the level 1 characters could fight. Use the 16 HP dragon tactics.

Level does not equate to story. Level just equates to how much stuff your character has.

Following the level = story design just holds back so much storytelling amd is lazy.

The DM will be severely limited in his choice of devil in your scenario, otherwise it'll end quickly with a bunch of dead Lvl 1 PCs rather than new heroes of the land…

Lvl does not have to relate to length of play; plenty of groups do one-shot sessions (or even start new campaigns) at higher level. The level determines the mechanical abilities available to the PCs, and allows them to have a chance to defeat more powerful monsters. Saying that this does not, somehow, put a certain amount of restrictions on the kind of story that can be told, is just false.

Try having your group of level 1 PCs fighting dragons (even Young Dragons) and you'll realize that you can only abstract level up to a certain point.

By the way, what is the 16 hp dragon tactic? Because that Bone Devil has an avegrage damage output of 46 hp of dmg per round with multiatatck… how are your Lvl 1 PC supposed to kill it?

[Derpaligtr]

The DM will be severely limited in his choice of devil in your scenario, otherwise it'll end quickly with a bunch of dead Lvl 1 PCs rather than new heroes of the land…

Lvl does not have to relate to length of play; plenty of groups do one-shot sessions (or even start new campaigns) at higher level. The level determines the mechanical abilities available to the PCs, and allows them to have a chance to defeat more powerful monsters. Saying that this does not, somehow, put a certain amount of restrictions on the kind of story that can be told, is just false.

Try having your group of level 1 PCs fighting dragons (even Young Dragons) and you'll realize that you can only abstract level up to a certain point.

By the way, what is the 16 hp dragon tactic? Because that Bone Devil has an avegrage damage output of 46 hp of dmg per round with multiatatck… how are your Lvl 1 PC supposed to kill it?

Mechanical power versus fictional power

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/DungeonWorld/comments/5x7300/i_dont_understand_the_16_hp_dragon_example/

I think the angry DM has some rants about it too.

Very good read up and can help people break away from level = story.

[SiCK_Boy]

Mechanical power versus fictional power

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/DungeonWorld/comments/5x7300/i_dont_understand_the_16_hp_dragon_example/

I think the angry DM has some rants about it too.

Very good read up and can help people break away from level = story.

I tried following the link, which took me to a Reddit post that discussed the "example" at length without ever explaining what the example IS. The discussion also seemed to be very much focused on the example coming from the Dungeon World game, with many of the first posters (when reading chronologically) making the claim that this example was specifically different from how things are handled in D&D, and multiple references to a ruleset I don't know nor fully understand… so, I'm really unclear on how that would even be a pertinent reference in a D&D discussion.

Maybe you could clarify it or provide a different link?

In all cases, I think my basic point still stand. If the only "story-related way" you have to ignore level is to have your Bone Devil be stuck in a ritual and unable to fight back, then you are not "ignoring" levels. You are just using tricks to neuter the challenge that a Bone Devil is supposed to represent. I still maintain that ignoring levels in D&D 5th to allow the telling of "any" story (meaning any group of PC can take on any kind of monster in the game as long as they do the proper "story" choices) cannot be done without severely changing the mechanics of how the game is built / the monsters are working (such as, in your example, using a devil, but making it unable to fight… at that point, you could make it so that the 5 devils doing the ritual are all ArchDevil, for all the difference it'll make if they can't fight anyway…).

[BBQ Pork]

It's official: part two is Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage.

https://twitter.com/dndbeyond/status/1003099647680831488?s=21

Edit: of note, Perkins says it goes from level 6 to 20. There's your high level adventure.
I love it.

Dungeon crawls are my bag.

[Derpaligtr]

I tried following the link, which took me to a Reddit post that discussed the "example" at length without ever explaining what the example IS. The discussion also seemed to be very much focused on the example coming from the Dungeon World game, with many of the first posters (when reading chronologically) making the claim that this example was specifically different from how things are handled in D&D, and multiple references to a ruleset I don't know nor fully understand… so, I'm really unclear on how that would even be a pertinent reference in a D&D discussion.

Maybe you could clarify it or provide a different link?

In all cases, I think my basic point still stand. If the only "story-related way" you have to ignore level is to have your Bone Devil be stuck in a ritual and unable to fight back, then you are not "ignoring" levels. You are just using tricks to neuter the challenge that a Bone Devil is supposed to represent. I still maintain that ignoring levels in D&D 5th to allow the telling of "any" story (meaning any group of PC can take on any kind of monster in the game as long as they do the proper "story" choices) cannot be done without severely changing the mechanics of how the game is built / the monsters are working (such as, in your example, using a devil, but making it unable to fight… at that point, you could make it so that the 5 devils doing the ritual are all ArchDevil, for all the difference it'll make if they can't fight anyway…).

Just google it and look into it.



I love it.

Dungeon crawls are my bag.

It works just as well for hack n slash, funny enough, as long as the DM works with that idea.

This worked in 3e, 4e, and now 5e and is my favorite way to DM as it gets the most from my players. They love not having so wait to fight liches or have a billuon options when they do.

[SiCK_Boy]

Went to Google and found this link: http://www.latorra.org/2012/05/15/a-16-hp-dragon/.

And it further confirms the point I was making. That 16 hp dragon was a great encounter because the players could not defeat it (he had some sort of damage resistance, in D&D equivalence) and he could rip player's arms off (a mechanic that does not really exist in D&D).

So, if you want to use that 16 hp dragon as an encounter in D&D, you need to completely rework (or ignore) the mechanics of the game (inventing a level of damage resistance that does not exist in the current rules; inventing a whole system for limb-rending, which also does not exist in the current rules). People are welcome to do that, but they may be better playing Dungeon World instead (if that game easily support 16 hp dragons).