Simulacrum Question - Temporary Buffs?

[kalos72]

If I buff up an NPC with +ability score spells, like Sirine's grace for example, and then sim them, does the sim have the increased ability scores as well?

What about other effects like telepathic bond or say haste? I would assume though that magic item sources would not copy over or does the sim get all the same gear as the host as well, since its a 100% copy?

Hmmm....

[Jack_Simth]

If I buff up an NPC with +ability score spells, like Sirine's grace for example, and then sim them, does the sim have the increased ability scores as well?

What about other effects like telepathic bond or say haste? I would assume though that magic item sources would not copy over or does the sim get all the same gear as the host as well, since its a 100% copy?

Hmmm....

In any game I'm running? You'd get a half-strength copy of the creature, not the creature with buffs and items. If the sim needs equipment to pull off the con, you're going to need to find/buy/make it. If the sim needs a Mind Blank to fake being Shazam, you're going to need to be the one to cast it. The only real exception to this will be critters that get equipment as a supernatural ability, such as a Balor's Vorpal Sword or a Trumpet Archon's trumpet.

[kalos72]

So if the host has 22 STR at the time of the sim spell, your saying the sim has 11 STR now? RAW is: "one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD".

I get the gear, RAW simply doesnt specify so I thought Id ask what others do.

[Jack_Simth]

So if the host has 22 STR at the time of the sim spell, your saying the sim has 11 STR now? RAW is: "one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD".

I get the gear, RAW simply doesnt specify so I thought Id ask what others do.
I was using "strength" in terms of "power" rather than "the physical ability score". Half hit dice means half HP, missing feats, reduced skills, reduced saves, and so on.

[kalos72]

Cool so if the host had 22 STR, your sim would have it as well then in your eyes?

[Jack_Simth]

Cool so if the host had 22 STR, your sim would have it as well then in your eyes?

Not always. If a Fighter-16 started with 18 strength and put all four level-up ability boosts into Strength, that fighter will have 22 strength (before items and spells). A simulacrum of it, however, is just a Fighter-8... and will be missing the 12th and 16th level ability score increases, resulting in a 20 strength (before items and spells).

[kalos72]

Fair enough...let me take it a level further.

I have an NPC I want to sim, he starts with 17 STR. I buff him with spells and is now at 23STR. I then sim him, whats the sims strength?

Totally fluffin the numbers, just an example. :)

[Jack_Simth]

Fair enough...let me take it a level further.

I have an NPC I want to sim, he starts with 17 STR. I buff him with spells and is now at 23STR. I then sim him, whats the sims strength?

Totally fluffin the numbers, just an example. :)
17, unless you buff the copy and/or he lost a level up boost from the hit die loss.

[kalos72]

That surprise me, the RAW doesnt mention reducing abilities that aren't tied to the lost HD/levels. None of the increases in STR comes from levels, all from spell buffs so losing a level or HD wouldn't affect the bonus.

[Jack_Simth]

That surprise me, the RAW doesnt mention reducing abilities that aren't tied to the lost HD/levels. None of the increases in STR comes from levels, all from spell buffs so losing a level or HD wouldn't affect the bonus.
What, do you expect a minutes/level Bull's Strength spell to be copied forever onto the sim? You're copying the creature, not the items or extra spells. You're perfectly welcome to cast spells on the copy and/or purchase / craft / find items to equip it with, though.

[kalos72]

Your making an exact copy of the original, at half level. If the original has 23STR, not gained by those lost half levels, I was assuming he would have 23STR still.

What if that bonus was given to the NPC a Tome or the blessing from the local GOD OF STRENGTH? Why does it matter where the increase came from as long as it wasnt from the lost levels?

He would know the spells the original knew, as were level appropriate at least.



I appreciate the discussion , please dont take it as me arguing. :)

[Jack_Simth]

Your making an exact copy of the original, at half level. If the original has 23STR, not gained by those lost half levels, I was assuming he would have 23STR still.

What if that bonus was given to the NPC a Tome or the blessing from the local GOD OF STRENGTH? Why does it matter where the increase came from as long as it wasnt from the lost levels?

He would know the spells the original knew, as were level appropriate at least.



I appreciate the discussion , please dont take it as me arguing. :)

If I put 100,000 gp into the hands of a commoner-1, then use a Mirror Memphit Improved Familiar to make a simulacrum of the commoner-1, can I then take the 100,000 gp out of the hands of each commoner and have 200,000 gp? I wouldn't think so. You're copying the creature. That's all.

[kalos72]

Aren't the current abilities PART of the creature?

I agree with any physical items, they dont carry over.

[Nifft]

Aren't the current abilities PART of the creature? If they're from the creature, then yes.

If they're from an item or spell effect, then obviously not.

Does "part of the creature" fall off when a spell runs out? No, that would be dumb. Spells are not "part of the creature".

[Jack_Simth]

Aren't the current abilities PART of the creature?

I agree with any physical items, they dont carry over.

Not in general, no; they're just on the creature.

[kalos72]

I am not seeing where the RAW has anything about "part of the creature". HP isn't technically part of the create then either...how can we be saying that a person's intelligence isn't part of the creature?

Again, I am saying that the host ability score has been PERMANENTLY increased, why would that bonus not follow over to the EXACT DUPLICATE?

Feats are earned at level increments, skills same, even the ability increase based on level are valid points. I am just not getting how other permanent improvements are thought of as not part of the creature.

If I was given a feat as a quest reward, would that come with the new sim?

[Nifft]

I am not seeing where the RAW has anything about "part of the creature". HP isn't technically part of the create then either...how can we be saying that a person's intelligence isn't part of the creature? A person's intelligence is part of the creature. Her hat however is not "a person's intelligence". It's a hat that gives a bonus.


Again, I am saying that the host ability score has been PERMANENTLY increased, why would that bonus not follow over to the EXACT DUPLICATE? If the permanent increase is counted as wealth -- like it would be for a Tome of +X -- then it would not be duplicated.

Just like any other wealth would not be duplicated.

It's pretty simple.

[kalos72]

When you read a TOME provides a permanent increase to the ability, it becomes PART of the person from that point on, cannot be dispelled. Thats PERMANENT.

A magical hat that gives a bonus sure, I get. But I see nothing in RAW that reviews the current stats and checks to see if they are permanent much less the source.

Anything rewarded from levels could be affected.

I am just gonna houserule that part for clarity.

Thanks all!

[Nifft]

When you read a TOME provides a permanent increase to the ability, it becomes PART of the person from that point on, cannot be dispelled. Thats PERMANENT. It's also WEALTH BY LEVEL, because it COSTS some MONEY and that MONEY should NOT be DUPLICATED because MONEY is NOT a CREATURE.

Likewise for grafts, divine gifts & blessings, symbiotes, and organization membership scores. None of those should be duplicated.

Hope that helps.

[kalos72]

I am really not sure I follow this whole line. Money is a physical item in the host possession...I get that.

Wealth is not given by level, its earned through adventure. Sure each level might provide a range of the amount of the rewards but its not just "ok you are level 10 here is your 1kgp".

No place in RAw does it mention anything about ability scores needing to be validated as part of the half power process, the advances created by levels make sense. But past that, it feels forced.

My ruling here will be anything affecting the host at the time of the cast, will carry over to the sim for that sims duration. If you look at the scenarios with taking a construct and buffing/healing them through Greater Humanoid Essence and then Incarnate them, the same thing applies here.

I have houseruled sim/IA are construct types previously.