Diplomacy Question - Fanatic Help

[kalos72]

So the books all describe Fanatic as "Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon" but does the effect have to apply to a person?

Could you Diplomance a person to be fanatic about a City? Or a Realm versus a specific person? Or maybe even just the King of that Realm?

You can do it to a religion, why not a realm?

[Venger]

No. It will make them feel that way about the person who made the diplomacy check to zap them. You can't shunt those feelings onto someone else with diplomacy alone.

[kalos72]

Isn't there something about proselytizing to convert a person to a church via Diplomacy as well? I have to find that book...

[kalos72]

And another question for clarity, does it have to be one on one or can you talk to a whole group at once?

[Venger]

Isn't there something about proselytizing to convert a person to a church via Diplomacy as well? I have to find that book...
This is an ability of complete divine's evangelist class. while the class synergizes well with a diplomancer, the ability itself does not use diplomacy.


And another question for clarity, does it have to be one on one or can you talk to a whole group at once?

If you're doing diplo by talking, then you can affect as many people as you can talk to. This is why persuasive performance is so useful: you can jump into the sky or whatever in front a much larger crowd than you could simply talk to.

[Dragolord]

No. It will make them feel that way about the person who made the diplomacy check to zap them. You can't shunt those feelings onto someone else with diplomacy alone.

I see no reason why, once you have someone worshipping the ground you walk on, you can't simply tell them that the king, or kingdom, or possibly even your pet goat, is worthy of their great respect and loyal service.

[Venger]

I see no reason why, once you have someone worshipping the ground you walk on, you can't simply tell them that the king, or kingdom, or possibly even your pet goat, is worthy of their great respect and loyal service.

Oh, probably. Just that you've got to be in the mix: they'll go off to war against the duke of darkness for country x, but it'll still be due to their loyalty for you is all I meant. You can't just go straight to making someone directly fanatical for someone else.

[kalos72]

Well, if you read the RAW it appears to not specify WHO the attitude changes towards. I mean in my mind, if I am trying to get you to like my Lord the King, thats what I am selling. Diplomats who go to another country to talk about a truce, dont make the opposing King like them, they negotiate for their King. Why can't this happen the same way?

"You would love it there, the King is so cool. You get your own house, we have winged cats as pets and River Dance every Saturday night! You should move there with me!"

Obviously, you can use it to benefit you or your party primarily but I think it all depends on what your trying to sell.

[Venger]

Well, if you read the RAW it appears to not specify WHO the attitude changes towards. I mean in my mind, if I am trying to get you to like my Lord the King, thats what I am selling. Diplomats who go to another country to talk about a truce, dont make the opposing King like them, they negotiate for their King. Why can't this happen the same way?

"You would love it there, the King is so cool. You get your own house, we have winged cats as pets and River Dance every Saturday night! You should move there with me!"

Obviously, you can use it to benefit you or your party primarily but I think it all depends on what your trying to sell.

The way skills work, is they apply to the person who is using them unless otherwise specified, such as epic hide, for example, which allows you to hide other monsters. When you roll jump, it is the person using the skill who moves, not someone else. Diplomacy works the same way. It does not specify this in the skill description because this is something that is true of all skills, the same way it doesn't specify in each skill that you add your ability modifier to the roll, because that's something that's true for all skills.

That is how diplomats (the occupation) work, but diplomacy is discrete from this. When you influence someone's attitude, it is toward you, the user of the skill. You can then tell them to act in such and such way to your king or country or whatever. Functionally, it is pretty much the same.

EDIT: trying to better myself as a person

[kalos72]

Wow, come on man I wasn't insulting you. :(

I was just pointing out that the skill says nothing about purely directed at you: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check;

Now the examples they give are directed at the player of course but I am simply saying it's more about changing the attitude to the idea you are selling then directly about you. If I sell you on not killing me or I sell you on liking my God Sardior. You are changing the attitude to the topic, not just you.

[Venger]

Wow, come on man I wasn't insulting you. :(

I was just pointing out that the skill says nothing about purely directed at you: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check;

Now the examples they give are directed at the player of course but I am simply saying it's more about changing the attitude to the idea you are selling then directly about you. If I sell you on not killing me or I sell you on liking my God Sardior. You are changing the attitude to the topic, not just you.

Fair enough. It's now clear to me you meant "if you look at the raw" rather than "if you have read the raw." Sorry I overreacted, that wasn't nice.

That's true, but as I said, that's because this is true for all skills. When regarding attitude changes, it is specifically centered on the person who used the skill.

Once you get to fanatic, revering a specific god or opening up trade with a neighboring kingdom are certainly less extreme than throwing yourself in front of a dragon, so they would definitely work, but it'd have to be you suggesting these things to the victim. Diplomacy isn't like undead control chains, where it can be ceded to an unrelated character. For that kind of thing, it might be useful to avail yourself of epic bluff checks to start doling out unlimited nonmagical suggestions.

[DarkSoul]

Take a look at the Mediate use for Diplomacy in Complete Adventurer. At the very least it sets a precedent that you can use the skill to directly influence one party's attitude toward another. You could likely make the case of causing people to become fanatics toward something that's not you, based on that.

[kalos72]

Sorry boss, wasn't trying to imply anything.

I took this line to mean you can use the skill yourself but to attempt outcomes not specifically related to you: Use this skill to persuade the chamberlain to let you see the king, to negotiate peace between feuding barbarian tribes, or to convince the ogre mages that have captured you that they should ransom you back to your friends instead of twisting your limbs off one by one.

But I get your point about skills being typically centered on the PC of course.

[Venger]

Take a look at the Mediate use for Diplomacy in Complete Adventurer. At the very least it sets a precedent that you can use the skill to directly influence one party's attitude toward another. You could likely make the case of causing people to become fanatics toward something that's not you, based on that.

That's very interesting. Under that rationale, you can use it to haggle too:

diplomeister: Gimme 10% off
shopkeeper: I'll give you 10% of my fist in your face for your insolence. Go seek the sky, pal
diplomeister: (leaps thousands of feet in the air and lands)
shopkeeper: 10% off it is. Thank you, come again.


Sorry boss, wasn't trying to imply anything.

I took this line to mean you can use the skill yourself but to attempt outcomes not specifically related to you: Use this skill to persuade the chamberlain to let you see the king, to negotiate peace between feuding barbarian tribes, or to convince the ogre mages that have captured you that they should ransom you back to your friends instead of twisting your limbs off one by one.

But I get your point about skills being typically centered on the PC of course.

No need to apologize, I read too much into it.

I understand your rationale, but influencing the npc's attitude will only change it toward you. Letting you get in to see the king is comfortably achievable even under friendly, "offering limited help" and "advocate."

As DarkSoul says, the rules for using diplo to negotiate peace between barbarian tribes are separate from the normal diplo rules and are spelled out under the "new uses for skills" section in complete adventurer under "mediate."

[kalos72]

My thought here is to make this guy a recruiter, go city to city recruiting people for the new Kingdom.

I am envisioning a circus type of atmosphere, with jumpomancers flying around and this guy talking to the crowd. With magic mirrors showing the PC and his party plus soaring visuals of the land around the new Kingdom. Think GoPro on the back of a dragon flying over the forests and mountains, maybe on a dolphin jumping in and out of the water around Neverwinter. A dwarf walking the vast halls of Gauntlgrym or an elf walking the High Forest.

Think major PR campaign... :)

The idea behind a jumpoancer is an Exemplar dip to change the skill from Dipl to Jump? How would that build out skill/feat wise?

[Arcanist]

That's very interesting. Under that rationale, you can use it to haggle too:

diplomeister: Gimme 10% off
shopkeeper: I'll give you 10% of my fist in your face for your insolence. Go seek the sky, pal
diplomeister: (leaps thousands of feet in the air and lands)
shopkeeper: 10% off it is. Thank you, come again.

In all fairness, if some guy actually jumped thousands of feet into the air from a standing position and lands daintily, I might be convinced that this person isn't someone I wanna mess with and just give them whatever they want. Hell, lets be happy that he doesn't want me to just give it to him for free.

[Venger]

My thought here is to make this guy a recruiter, go city to city recruiting people for the new Kingdom.

I am envisioning a circus type of atmosphere, with jumpomancers flying around and this guy talking to the crowd. With magic mirrors showing the PC and his party plus soaring visuals of the land around the new Kingdom. Think GoPro on the back of a dragon flying over the forests and mountains, maybe on a dolphin jumping in and out of the water around Neverwinter. A dwarf walking the vast halls of Gauntlgrym or an elf walking the High Forest.

Think major PR campaign... :)

The idea behind a jumpoancer is an Exemplar dip to change the skill from Dipl to Jump? How would that build out skill/feat wise?

some resources (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444052-The-Jumplomancer-are-you-serious) are listed here. as you can see, this will get you a far larger bonus than you need, so you don't need to do all this stuff, just pick and choose which things will be useful for the build you want. a diplomacy build, especially one using exemplar, doesn't really require much in the way of specific classes, feats, etc.