What to Play??

[Gorfnod]

I'm starting a new character in an existing campaign with only two other players. One of them is a Human Ranger that specializes in archery and the other is a Tiefling Investigator. I've not really seen an investigator in action before and am not sure what third character would mesh well with the team. Starting level for me is 5 so I can skip some of the normal low level nonsense attached to some builds.


So any ideas on what will really help this team out?

[Elricaltovilla]

Investigators are good skillmonkeys and middling combatants. They can hold their own in a fight but based on what you mentioned, your party needs a Frontliner and a strong spellcaster.

Therefore I recommend either a cleric or an oracle. Either one can do well in both roles, but an oracle can multiclass well with the paladin to make a fairly solid tank/HP battery and still be a potent spellcaster. Google "Oradin builds" you should be able to start out well on your way since I think you only need 2 levels of paladin.

Of course, this changes depending on the books you're allowed to use and the house rules your GM likes.

[Ellrin]

It really depends on what the investigator is doing. The chassis is by default a good skillmonkey, but can be built into offering support, throwing out some debuffing, or even playing a decent glass cannon (or a good one if Path of War is on the table). Assuming your archer knows what he's doing, your team should have DPR and skills covered pretty well between the two, so control and being able to absorb damage are probably your main priorities, with support potentially being another depending on your investigator's build. Cleric is probably your strongest bet for filling all those roles, though oradin, single-class oracle, druid, summoner and maybe a very well-built magus or inquisitor could fill those roles pretty well, too. I mean, wizards and sorcerers could as well, though they'd be more specialized and high-op builds.

[Florian]

Hm. You have two solid damage dealers and if the Investigator has taken the infusion discovery, buffs and healing are already covered, but BFC is missing.

Without the infusion discovery, I´d go Cleric 1/Oracle 4 and aim for Hellknight Signifer. With, I´d go Arcanist (Magaambyan Initiate) into the Magaambyan Arcanist PrC.

Edit: It has a bad rep on this forum, but a Mystic Theurge ain´t that bad in a smaller group and when the gm knows how to adapt the CR system to fit.

[Kurald Galain]

Looks like you could use an arcane caster.

This could be anything from sorcerer (to double as party face), magus (to double as frontliner), or just plain ol' wizard. A summoning spell or two may help to put extra bodies on the battlefield.

[ericgrau]

They need an arcane caster and heavy melee, which is hard to do together. If you go pure mage your party will be squishy and fragile without very high optimization and/or gouda cheese. Your tankiest member will be the back liner. Heavy melee will work well early, but later you should be wishing you had some arcane magic too. An archer and skillmonkey/utility weren't a good idea for a small party so it's up to you to round them out.

I'd go barbarian 1/sorcerer 4 or etc. into dragon disciple. Get your beatstick on early and then get magic too later. Your melee will suffer from the sorcerer levels but you can make up for that with spells like false life and greater magic weapon. Get a lesser rod of extend spell or 3 as soon as you can for more buffing, and to tag your party members too. Flame arrow will be nice for the archer, but if you do a lot of wilderness encounters then don't get it too early due to the duration. Cast your buffs early and wear good armor during the day. That will be the bulk of your spells for a while, with no in-combat casting. Eventually you can do things like still sleet storm for battlefield control to open fights and make them easier before switching to rage & weapon swinging. Get a reach weapon like a guisarme to help better protect your party members.

[Gorfnod]

Really appreciate the input. Lots of great ideas guys.

The investigator has infusion so no issue there and the archer definitely has no issue with his build when it comes to damage.

The consensus seems to be a frontline caster so I'm leaning towards either Magus or Dragon Disciple.

Now I'm curious if you could build a better DD with bloodrager vs the barbarian/sorcerer route.

.

[Kurald Galain]

The consensus seems to be a frontline caster so I'm leaning towards either Magus or Dragon Disciple.

Now I'm curious if you could build a better DD with bloodrager vs the barbarian/sorcerer route.
DD is really not such a good idea. And the reason is that the draconic bloodline is nice for a blaster, whereas the DD is supposed to be a frontliner.

So I'd suggest either Magus or draconic Bloodrager (or both, by using draconic Eldritch Scion), but not the DD.

[ericgrau]

DD is really not such a good idea. And the reason is that the draconic bloodline is nice for a blaster, whereas the DD is supposed to be a frontliner.
DD has a lot of great frontliner benefits as does sorcerer casting. You don't need to use your bloodline special ability. The bloodline feats, spells, claws and resistances aren't bad for a frontliner either. The other ways don't seem too shabby either though.

[Kurald Galain]

DD has a lot of great frontliner benefits

Not compared to an actual frontliner class, such as Magus or Bloodrager.

Come now. Resist 5 energy? +1 to armor class? The ability to take Skill Focus (Fly)? None of that is a great boon to frontlining. Even its flight power sucks because it takes a standard action to activate.

[ericgrau]

The DD prestige class benefits for the frontline on top of all that and better spellcasting are nice. Bloodrager is enticing for the better BAB and casting while raging, but it takes level 10 just to finally get 3rd level spells. Dragon disciple gets them by 8 on a more full list.

Also why are you selecting the worst feat on a list of good feats? What relevance does that have? Or ignoring multiple other abilities and talking about a small portion that doesn't even top the list? Is this just to make a case by omitting abilities?

[Kurald Galain]

The DD prestige class benefits for the frontline
Such as WHAT?

Things I just mentioned like resist energy 5 and skill focus fly are actual benefits of the DD. Clearly they don't help a frontliner, though. So what specifically are you talking about?


Bloodrager is enticing for the better BAB and casting while raging, but it takes level 10 just to finally get 3rd level spells. Dragon disciple gets them by 8 on a more full list.
Magus gets them at level seven. And don't overlook the big action economy advantages that Magus and Bloodrager get, and that DD lacks.

[Geddy2112]

I will caution that going bloodrager is not a lot of casting-your spells are limited both in volume and options, so it won't really be a caster filling the role you want. You can make a serious melee monster with spells out of a bloodrager, but I wouldn't say that a bloodrager can fill the role of arcane caster in a party.

So I would probably go magus, although I would also consider a melee focused bard.

[Gorfnod]

I really appreciate all the additional input.

I spoke with the other players and the DM and we all agree that a magus is probably the best.

I've played a straight magus from lvl 2-12 before so feel pretty confident with the class.

I'm thinking maybe bladebound/kensai or another archetype to change it up a little this time. Any thoughts?

[Andry]

I am currently a Half-orc magus who worships the demi-god Ragathiel General of Vengeance and thinks he is a Paladin of this demigod.

I took the Bladebound archetype to simulate the bonded weapon(plus it saves a ton of cash). The Sacred Tattoo racial ability and fortunes favored trait to simulate the charisma to saves. I figure Spellstrike would simulate smite evil. To simulate the lay on hands ability I took hexcrafter and took the healing hex. I used the spell blending to get some healing spells from the witch spell list. It's been a blast playing him it took about 4 sessions before everyone figured out I wasn't playing a paladin. My thoughts on the kensai archetype are as follows it kind sets you back on your casting but pays off later and with no armor I would make sure you pump your defensive spells up.

[Firest Kathon]

If you are looking for a caster/frontliner combo, a Summoner (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/) may be good for you. Especially the "classic" Summoner is an excellent buffer, but the unchained version (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner-unchained/) is still good.

[Geddy2112]

I'm thinking maybe bladebound/kensai or another archetype to change it up a little this time. Any thoughts?

I 100% support this. The mechanical benefits of a free scaling weapon, possible dex to damage if you use a scimitar, and lots of other fun stuff. Plus if you go with a katana and onispawn tiefling you can be Shesshomaru from Inuyasha.

[Ellrin]

I really appreciate all the additional input.

I spoke with the other players and the DM and we all agree that a magus is probably the best.

I've played a straight magus from lvl 2-12 before so feel pretty confident with the class.

I'm thinking maybe bladebound/kensai or another archetype to change it up a little this time. Any thoughts?

I've always felt that bladebound is a straight downgrade from vanilla magus in a standard WBL (or higher) campaign, but if you like the flavor, it's probably not enough of a downgrade to worry about it.

If you're looking for ways to mix up the standard magus and don't mind a little less theoretical power, there are a bunch of archetypes that pull focus away from the standard one-handed scimitar combat, including the staff magus, bladed scarf dancer, or card caster. If 3rd party is on the table, Ascension Games gives you some archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/ascension-games-llc-magus-archetypes/) that allow you to use more typical alternate combat styles (sword and board, THF, TWF) without breaking spellstrike and spell combat, though those abilities are significantly delayed and you lose one spell per day per spell level.

Kurald of course has an exhaustive and excellent guide to building a magus, including reflections on the first party archetypes, which you can find here on the forums. I won't bother linking to it here, since it's in his signature a few posts up. And possibly down, eventually.

[Andor13]

I used a Magus once to get into what is apparently now called a Storm Kindler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/master-of-storms/) (I think it was Storm Lord or Master of Storms last time I looked it up.)

I used Hexcrafter to get Healing Touch for some light healing. He pretty much considered himself to be a Paladin of Gozreh, in spite of being completely arcane. Blond bearded sailor type covered in Spell Scars and Magic tattoos, fighting with a Trident.

Probably a long way from being mechanically optimal, but he was a lot of fun.

[Ellrin]

I used a Magus once to get into what is apparently now called a Storm Kindler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/master-of-storms/) (I think it was Storm Lord or Master of Storms last time I looked it up.)

d20pfsrd has to change or leave out some setting-specific names due to copyright issues, since they also operate a store. I believe the PrC is indeed officially called Master of Storms, it's even still called that in the URL.

[Epic Legand]

I think Kensai is a fun choice, but if Path of War is on the table, look at Sorcerer( Sage)4 Levels and Harbringer( Edgelord) 1 Level. Take the trait that adds 2 levels to initiator and have your first level in Harbringer be at level 5. You have INT based casting and maneuvers( Plus extra skill points), you add INT to AC plus you have mage armor. You come into game play with level 4 Sorcery and a fair chunk of being a 5th level initiator. For race chose something with + INT/DEX, and use 2 feats to add DEX to hit and damage. Add false life and Unquiet Grave stance of Starving Vampire and have a great recovery mechism for temporary HP. If you want a solid bonus to hit, skip the archtype, and go base Harbringer, but you lose more in AC then you gain in to hit. Your second trait can be one aimed at metamagic or bringing up your caster level on Sorcerer.

As a side note, you could play an Albino, Drow Blooded Teifling, Damphier with an uncontrollable urge to do good who uses a Katana (Daisho Expertise feat) for Extra EXTRA Edgelord :)