Dealing with a complaining player

[inqui]

Apologies for what will probably become a bit of a rant but I am reaching my wits end.

Essentially, I have been dming a campaign for the last couple of months with my group to give the main DM a break. It’s the first time I’ve done a campaign myself and the first few sessions went reasonably well, everyone enjoying it and myself leaving with a few points of constructive criticism to bring in to the next session.

This is where the problems began. The main DM gave me a few points that I could improve on and I took that on board but as the campaign has progressed, the criticism has become far more pedantic than constructive and he seems to have issues with every other encounter, interaction and concept I’ve introduced, getting to the point where some of the players, who have all enjoyed each session, have ended up in near shouting matches for the last two sessions and in other non DnD related activities. While some of his points have been legitimate as I have made a fair few mistakes in my first campaign others have been petty or just differences in our creative styles, which he just doesn’t seem to recognise. However I am a patient man and knowing him, thought this would die down as we progressed.

The thing that really irritated to the point of posting this happened a few days ago when our group was playing board games. Out of the blue he mentions that he has spoken to his “dm friends” on discord and they have all condemned my decisions. Now, complaining in front of me is one thing, but going to another group of people only he knows, understanding all well this is my first campaign, to complain about me is another thing entirely as if this council of dms is some sort of ultimate authority on the matter.

All this has greatly reduced my desire to continue dming, to the point where I no longer want to run the campaign and have given up writing each of the sessions up afterwards as they only remind me of his complaints.
I don’t really know how to approach this with him as it seems his own feelings have been made completely clear and I don’t really like causing conflict, especially since he is the one that is dming the rest of our games. I’d really appreciate some advice on what to do.

Tl;dr The main dm for my group has moved from constructive criticism to pedantic complaints and I’m losing my will to dm. Help!

[Davrix]

Ugh one of these.......

I understand though I've been there myself just not gotten this bad at it. Sometimes its hard for a entrenched DM to let go of the seat and the power and let someone else have fun. I deal with this myself when my friend DM's because well... he is frankly bad at some things and I've made some of the mistakes this guy has made in being overly critical of him. I've toned it down over the years and we have talked about it and we try not to butt heads but we still do on occasion.

So my best advice here is this. You and him are going to argue from time to time if you continue to be a DM even if you resolve this issue.

What you need to do is go to him and sit down and have a long talk. Explain to him its ok after each game to offer critiques on mechanics or rulings you made but that he has to respect that you have the power to run the game your way so you can have fun. You also need to make a point that its not ok to try and vindicate his point of view by dragging random people online into this. Just because others agree with him, doesn't make you wrong in how you want to run things. (though I will say you have come online to a random group of strangers to validate that you have been wronged to a degree so don't lead with the words. I went online and found people who said your full of crap)

Long story short what he is doing goes beyond critisim and he needs to stop. So either he needs to back off a bit or simply say this isn't going to work for me and I will stick to being a player and you can just DM from now on as the easy direct solution and then maybe in a few months talk to him again about everything when things have had time to settle and brew for a bit.

[OzDragon]

Apologies for what will probably become a bit of a rant but I am reaching my wits end.

Essentially, I have been dming a campaign for the last couple of months with my group to give the main DM a break. It’s the first time I’ve done a campaign myself and the first few sessions went reasonably well, everyone enjoying it and myself leaving with a few points of constructive criticism to bring in to the next session.

This is where the problems began. The main DM gave me a few points that I could improve on and I took that on board but as the campaign has progressed, the criticism has become far more pedantic than constructive and he seems to have issues with every other encounter, interaction and concept I’ve introduced, getting to the point where some of the players, who have all enjoyed each session, have ended up in near shouting matches for the last two sessions and in other non DnD related activities. While some of his points have been legitimate as I have made a fair few mistakes in my first campaign others have been petty or just differences in our creative styles, which he just doesn’t seem to recognise. However I am a patient man and knowing him, thought this would die down as we progressed.

The thing that really irritated to the point of posting this happened a few days ago when our group was playing board games. Out of the blue he mentions that he has spoken to his “dm friends” on discord and they have all condemned my decisions. Now, complaining in front of me is one thing, but going to another group of people only he knows, understanding all well this is my first campaign, to complain about me is another thing entirely as if this council of dms is some sort of ultimate authority on the matter.

All this has greatly reduced my desire to continue dming, to the point where I no longer want to run the campaign and have given up writing each of the sessions up afterwards as they only remind me of his complaints.
I don’t really know how to approach this with him as it seems his own feelings have been made completely clear and I don’t really like causing conflict, especially since he is the one that is dming the rest of our games. I’d really appreciate some advice on what to do.

Tl;dr The main dm for my group has moved from constructive criticism to pedantic complaints and I’m losing my will to dm. Help!

Here is the thing. The DM is God in the game. Every DM is different. No matter what you do other DMs will have an opinion on your style and how to "fix" it to what they think is right. It does not matter what he and his cadre of like minded DMs think.(unless of course you are changing the rules willy nilly)

Calmly let your friend know that this is not cool in your mind and that when in game your word is basically law.

Example: I was DMing for my group and was using a Lamia and gave her an action that is not in her normal stat block. One of my players who knows the books well says she can't do that.
I calmly tell him that this one can. Then we move on from there.

Now that may not equate to the issues he has with your style. It's just to show that in your game your rulings matter. Your friend needs to understand this. Also I would let your friend know that if he has issues with how you are DMing to bring it up after the game so as not to ruin the fun for the others while you and he argue rulings.

[samcifer]

Hey, what's the worst that could happen by giving them what they want?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRTkCHE1sS4

[KRSW]

If his complaints are from a rules or mechanics standpoint, you should have an actual discussion of why something is the way it is using actual reasoning.

If his complaints go along the lines of "This sucks," without giving you any actual reason for why he thinks that or any way that you could make it better I would actually just brush those off as garbage because that is what they are.

Regardless of whether they are legitimate or not, be very forward about this and tell him that you do not want to argue during the game at all. After the game is totally fine, but getting into an argument in game and having the other players just sit there and watch is stupid.

Since you are here on this forum and asking for help, I think that says that you care a lot about your campaign and your relationship with this person and the other players. Because of that, I really doubt anything you did was really that bad. With that being said, if you wanted to elaborate and give some details on these "decisions" that were condemned by the "other DMs" we can give more advice.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do for situations like these is just talk to the people who have problems with whatever you did/are doing. I think it is the most direct way to solve these kinds of problems.

[Unoriginal]

I've advise you to talk with him, and try to once and for all to pierce the pus pouch and hear what his problems are, while you explain your points like you did right here.

If you see this is going nowhere, my advice is this: tell him "well, you obviously hate my campaign, and I don't enjoy DMing when you're treating me like that, so I think it'll be better for both of us if you stop being my player. I'll DM for those still interested."

[Kane0]

I've advise you to talk with him, and try to once and for all to pierce the pus pouch and hear what his problems are, while you explain your points like you did right here.

If you see this is going nowhere, my advice is this: tell him "well, you obviously hate my campaign, and I don't enjoy DMing when you're treating me like that, so I think it'll be better for both of us if you stop being my player. I'll DM for those still interested."

Yup.

10char.

[Contrast]

...getting to the point where some of the players, who have all enjoyed each session, have ended up in near shouting matches for the last two sessions and in other non DnD related activities.

First things first - if other players are getting in shouting matches, is he raising these comments mid-session?

Let him know that if he feels the need to comment/offer advice, he should wait until after the session.


Out of the blue he mentions that he has spoken to his “dm friends” on discord and they have all condemned my decisions.

This is just kind of poor interpersonal skills on his part but I wouldn't take it too personally. After all, you've just done exactly the same thing to him :smallwink:

Maybe encourage everyone after the session to comment on one thing they liked or disliked about the session and what they'd like to see more/less of. Gives him an outlet for his comments but he has to actually choose one thing rather than nitpicking everything and if everyone else is enjoying the sessions it'll help you out as his criticisms will come along with compliments so you don't feel under siege.

Of course the best advice, as always, is talk to the guy and be honest that the constant negative vibe is getting you down.

[SirGraystone]

The thing that really irritated to the point of posting this happened a few days ago when our group was playing board games. Out of the blue he mentions that he has spoken to his “dm friends” on discord and they have all condemned my decisions.

I'm curious about what decisions exactly was "condemned" by all his friends. Because if I learned anything in there forums is that peoples rarely all agree on something.

And let say you made a mistake on the rules, most DM will agree that yes you may be wrong on using that rule, but it's you are still learning to DM and that's after all your game. That's not the same thing as condemning you.

They say doctor make the worst patient, something DM make the worst player...

[darknite]

Not cool. Tell him if he doesn't like how you run your game, he's free to find another. Or find a more mature group to play with.

[ImproperJustice]

I would be curious to hear how the conversation with him goes.

OOC: does he tolerate mid-game interruptions and criticism in his games?

[The Cats]

This is just kind of poor interpersonal skills on his part but I wouldn't take it too personally. After all, you've just done exactly the same thing to him :smallwink:

I am unreasonably thrilled that this got pointed out.

[KorvinStarmast]

All this has greatly reduced my desire to continue dming, to the point where I no longer want to run the campaign and have given up writing each of the sessions up afterwards as they only remind me of his complaints. You have answered your own question.

Tell the group this (or words to this effect)

I am taking a break from DMing for a while, since I am not interested in the amount of shade being thrown at me. We play to have fun, and I am getting more aggravation than fun.

Whose the next DM for our group? I want to have fun again.

[Pelle]

This is just kind of poor interpersonal skills on his part but I wouldn't take it too personally. After all, you've just done exactly the same thing to him :smallwink:


To be fair, he asked for advice on what to do, not for arguments for how to prove his DM-player friend wrong.


Pedantic critisism is always more unhelpful than constructive. It's a bit hard to judge if it was appropriate in this case. Some things are legitimate to complain about, some are not. One should not be condemned for being inexperienced if trying to improve.

I will second everyone suggesting talking to the player. If you don't appreciate the feedback, let him know. If it is just a matter of style preference (say fudging dice or not, rules flexible or strict, CaS or CaW, etc), make it clear that it is ok to prefer it one way, but try to explain why you like to do things differently.

[Sariel Vailo]

Ask everyone a question or two before your next session starts. As well as lay down the basis of the universe. If the adversarial player who was once god and now has issues after relinquishing his divinity continues to be a problem. Why not use the optional rules in the back of the dms handbook titled specifically the gods must be crazy. Dms switch durring the session, could compare,contrast and let everyone have a seat behind the screen. It lets everyone contribute to the world.

[Christopher K.]

I've advise you to talk with him, and try to once and for all to pierce the pus pouch and hear what his problems are, while you explain your points like you did right here.

If you see this is going nowhere, my advice is this: tell him "well, you obviously hate my campaign, and I don't enjoy DMing when you're treating me like that, so I think it'll be better for both of us if you stop being my player. I'll DM for those still interested."

I wouldn't use "obviously hate" in my conclusion but otherwise this is exactly what I'd do. Why waste time trying to entertain someone who clearly wants to run the game in their own "right way?"

[Mercurias]

Gonna be honest here. I’d ask him why he keeps showing up if all he’s going to to is get upset.

I recently left a Masks group because my DM invited nine new players in and I got tired of being interrupted or talked over when I tried to participate. It didn’t suit me, and I stopped having fun.

I didn’t throw a fit. I didn’t bring it up at the table. I just told my fiancé, a friend, and the GM I was out because the group was too large. I have a standing invitation to rejoin, and I’m saving up for proper 5e books now so I can run a small campaign of my own.

If your DM has loyalists then let him leave with them. Do your own thing and let him know there are no hard feelings unless he decides to make them that way.

[Keridwyn44]

First things first - if other players are getting in shouting matches, is he raising these comments mid-session?

Maybe encourage everyone after the session to comment on one thing they liked or disliked about the session and what they'd like to see more/less of.

Love this advice - I will implement it myself!

Keridwyn

[willdaBEAST]

Other people have touched on this, but a lot of DMs get territorial. They want their campaign to be the highlight of everyone's DnD experience and will get insecure if they feel that someone else is competing for that attention.

That doesn't excuse poor behavior and based on what the OP has shared, the former DM is acting extremely inappropriately. It does help you understand his motivation though, especially why he might go to such lengths to try to prove how right he is. He's afraid your players are having more fun in your game and seems to be trying to sabotage it.

Remind the other DM that you are doing a favor for him, he asked for a break and you're the one allowing for that to happen. As others have suggested, I would try explaining how discouraging his criticism is and how you feel like it's not constructive. Tell him you have the right to run your game however you want and while you'll respect constructive criticism, you will not tolerate disruptive behavior.

[Demonslayer666]

It's time to go back and do a session 0. Lay down some ground rules and remind everyone that the whole point is to have fun, and that includes the DM.

Tell the other DM to stop disrespecting you or he can stop playing in your game. He's being disruptive.

Keep control of your game by directing the conversations, don't let arguments carry on for too long. Make a quick ruling and move on with the game, tell them they can discuss it outside of game with you later on if they feel strongly about it, and that you will make a ruling if needed.

[GlenSmash!]

When I started DMing I had the previous DM disagree with a ruling I made, but we moved on. Afterward he showed me by the rules where he was right. I admitted I made a mistake and would try to do better, but I told him I would probably make more mistakes in the future and would continue to try and make rulings quickly, even wrong rulings, to keep the game moving forward. We agreed this was a good approach.

Which is all by way of saying I'm sorry your old DM isn't as good a friend as mine is. :smalleek:


It's time to go back and do a session 0. Lay down some ground rules and remind everyone that the whole point is to have fun, and that includes the DM.

Tell the other DM to stop disrespecting you or he can stop playing in your game. He's being disruptive.

Keep control of your game by directing the conversations, don't let arguments carry on for too long. Make a quick ruling and move on with the game, tell them they can discuss it outside of game with you later on if they feel strongly about it, and that you will make a ruling if needed.

This is my advice too.

Before your next session sit down and go over the social contract of the game.

You are all there to have fun. If one player is sucking the fun out of it it's not going to work.

Talk about how to improve it. If you can't come to a consensus, part ways.

[ErHo]

Sounds like hes ready to start DMing again. Must have been a nice vacation