D&D, 5e, optimization, and competitive gaming experience

[ad_hoc]

As this board is focused on optimization I am curious about how the players here interact with competitive game scenes, and what they feel their D&D experience has brought them to those scenes.

Optimizing is essentially treating D&D as a competition. Or at the very least a puzzle to be solved.

Do you play competitive games or is D&D optimization the only competitive game you take part in? If so, which games? If not, why not?

What are your highest achievements in these games?

Do you think you could apply what you have learned about optimizing D&D to other games?

Do you think if you chose to focus on competitive games you would do well?

Do you think if you focused on competitive games you would become a better D&D optimizer?

[Deathtongue]

As far as 5E D&D is concerned, at least in the level 1 - 15 range, optimization isn't really that big of a deal. Even if you're playing some sort of super-character, your success adventure-to-adventure will rely more on who you're playing with than what your party is doing. It's all well and good to be playing, say, a Diviner with Simulacrum and with a Planar Bound Earth Elemental, but if two of your party members of four are playing Beastmaster Rangers and another person is playing a Four Elements Monk (which has happened to me before in a Tier 3), you're going to have a rough time no matter what you do.

[ad_hoc]

As far as 5E D&D is concerned, at least in the level 1 - 15 range, optimization isn't really that big of a deal. Even if you're playing some sort of super-character, your success adventure-to-adventure will rely more on who you're playing with than what your party is doing. It's all well and good to be playing, say, a Diviner with Simulacrum and with a Planar Bound Earth Elemental, but if two of your party members of four are playing Beastmaster Rangers and another person is playing a Four Elements Monk (which has happened to me before in a Tier 3), you're going to have a rough time no matter what you do.

This is not the thread you are looking for.

[Waazraath]

I can remember 3 more or less competative situations in all my D&D years. 2 times was a lazy DM that deceided to end a campaign (prematurely) in a battle royal between the players. Once, as a DM, I had a subplot where the party had to prove themselves in the temple of a god of war, and they had to take on each other in a (randomly deceided) 2vs2 tag team match, using only non-lethal damage (it was an older edition, in which that was a thing).

What I learned from the first two situations, as a player, is that if I ever play with this DM again I'll have a talk with him first about rewarding campaign endings. What I learned of the latter is that tactics trump charop, within limits; the team that I beforehand wouldn't have given a chance won, due to making smarter tactical decisions and better team work. There definitely is a lesson afaic.

I don't know if this answers your question. I personally don't see optimization as something competative, unless on forums like this one with contests like "who can have all skill proficiencies the earliest level". I've never seen games that were truely competative, that only consisted of player vs player arena fights or something.

[Jerrykhor]

I don't think you know what 'competitive' means, because D&D optimisation is not it.

[MeimuHakurei]

First of all, no matter what all those kindergarden "everyone wins if you're having fun" roleplayers say, D&D very much has competitive elements at its core. The DM plays enemies and is expected to challenge the players, which does require a seperation of roles - build the adventure to be fair and enjoyable, but try your best to have the monsters succeed at their goals (which might but not necessarily involves eliminating the party). Also, the puzzle to solve is those challenges the DM presents you, not the game itself - and working as a team is a central part of the equation.

D&D optimization is a skill that can be applied to most roleplaying games with character advancement, with evaluating what best helps your concept.

[mephnick]

D&D optimization isn't the same as competitive gaming so I don't think they correlate at all. It sure hasn't made me better at Twilight Imperium.

A monkey can pick the best thing out of a list with a little experience. Engaging and resolving a strategy against reactive, human opponents is another thing entirely.

[DeAnno]

Do you play competitive games or is D&D optimization the only competitive game you take part in? If so, which games? If not, why not?

I've tended to do a lot of competitive games over the years, though I'm not doing any of them seriously enough to be on a toplist or anything right now. I can usually beat my friends playing poker for small stakes, I used to be decent at chess in high school (for a high schooler), I've dabbled in and out of various TCGs, and I play various board games. And then of course ...


What are your highest achievements in these games?

Way back in the day I used to play utopia (http://utopia-game.com/shared/) semi-competitively. I was never in a Kingdom with enough really dedicated players to win an Age, but we did pretty well a few times. My most memorable performance there was probably back in Age 27 (http://utopia-game.com/shared/common/ranking_archive/), where I orchestrated a strategy (it turns out, that if you got Dwarves really really drunk, you could draft at Emergency speed for 1% of the normal price...) that gave us the lead for the first few weeks, with us managing to stay in the top 10 until the end despite a numbers deficit.

I also have been on and off the competitive Pokemon scene over the years. I played in Gen IV and Gen V and generally hung around the #20-50 region of the ladder, though I didn't really ever get into tourney play.


Do you think you could apply what you have learned about optimizing D&D to other games?

Aside from more specific knowledge about how various roles work in a magic/tactics type setting, D&D has taught me the value of certainty and paranoia. If you expect to win, you should also expect things to go wrong, even spectacularly wrong, and prepare for those eventualities. The Mailman I designed in 3.5e was the logical extension of these principles, valuing the ability to deal with threats consistently using accuracy, not just gaudy damage numbers that might never get through. In D&D the PCs are (almost) always the favorites, so it pays to build characters that won't fall apart due to bad dice rolling. If you miss on a "2" in 3.5e, you might be doing it wrong, and that, often enough, means you die.

My utopia days were before I learned this, but as we were usually underdogs in the scheme of things, it wouldn't have applied much. In contrast, my Pokemon days were after, and my teams tended not just to be built to win matches, but to win even when they were unlucky and suffered crits and misses, or when my prediction was bad and I piloted suboptimally.


Do you think if you chose to focus on competitive games you would do well?

If I really put my all into a competitive game I'm usually pretty confident I'll be at least respectable at it, and I do have my occasional moments of inspired greatness.


Do you think if you focused on competitive games you would become a better D&D optimizer?

I think a lot of the specific skills of D&D optimization are already pretty ingrained with me. There's always space to improve, but 4e is a pretty dead edition and 5e is honestly a bit sparse in content. 3.5e is reasonably alive and deep (though more than a bit stagnant, at this point) but I haven't really paid a huge amount of attention to it in some time, as I'm not in any 3.5e games and don't have any future plans to be in one now.

[darknite]

I don't see D&D as a competitive game at all. In fact it's a game where teamwork is at the core of success. Optimization for me is ensuring my PCs fit my vision of their character and have the tools to survive the game. I like DMs that provide a challenging game and even put a bit of competition into the experience, but the best ones never make it a them-vs-us type of thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

As this board is focused on optimization I am curious about how the players here interact with competitive game scenes, and what they feel their D&D experience has brought them to those scenes. What competitive games are you talking about? Chess? StarCraft? Heroes of the Storm? DoTA?

Optimizing is essentially treating D&D as a competition.
No, it isn't. It's an attempt to get the most out of limited resources.

Do you play competitive games or is D&D optimization the only competitive game you take part in? Faulty premise remains faulty.

If so, which games?
Currently: Hearthstone, League of Legends, and I did a few seasons of "how high up the ladder I can get in Diablo III" until recently when I just got tired of it. I usually get to about level 12 or 10 ranked in Hearthstone in a given month. Depends on whether I can figure out a build if I don't have the special cards for "the meta" for that month or season.

What are your highest achievements in these games? Heh, that's funny. LoL I am not able to spend enough time to get into a rank of any moment. (MY son does OK).

Do you think you could apply what you have learned about optimizing D&D to other games? No. Not At All.

Do you think if you focused on competitive games you would become a better D&D optimizer? No. Since I play for team success in D&D as a player, this question makes no sense.
I don't think you know what 'competitive' means, because D&D optimisation is not it. Agree with this assessment.

D&D optimization isn't the same as competitive gaming Yeah; OP premise is faulty.

[ad_hoc]

snip

Well you do get the award for being the only one so far who has understood the thread.

I suppose reading comprehension isn't a competition, but still - 1st place.

Thanks for answering.

[Lorsa]

As this board is focused on optimization I am curious about how the players here interact with competitive game scenes, and what they feel their D&D experience has brought them to those scenes.

Optimizing is essentially treating D&D as a competition. Or at the very least a puzzle to be solved.

Do you play competitive games or is D&D optimization the only competitive game you take part in? If so, which games? If not, why not?

What are your highest achievements in these games?

Do you think you could apply what you have learned about optimizing D&D to other games?

Do you think if you chose to focus on competitive games you would do well?

Do you think if you focused on competitive games you would become a better D&D optimizer?

If you analyzed this with respect to Mathematical knowledge, or professional application of other optimization algorithms, I think the answer would be more interesting.

Optimizing is not treating anything as a competition. Treating something as a competition can lead to optimization, but the reverse is not true.

For example, I try to optimize the quickest route from home to work, but I hardly do that due to any intrinsic competition, nor am I treating "getting to work" as a competition.

[ad_hoc]

I suppose a follow up thread could be: Are people ashamed of being optimizers?

In threads I see nothing but people declaring one thing as best and arguments that follow. There are countless 'guides' and 'builds', but then when asked about it, they deny optimization at all.

[ad_hoc]

If you analyzed this with respect to Mathematical knowledge, or professional application of other optimization algorithms, I think the answer would be more interesting.

Optimizing is not treating anything as a competition. Treating something as a competition can lead to optimization, but the reverse is not true.

For example, I try to optimize the quickest route from home to work, but I hardly do that due to any intrinsic competition, nor am I treating "getting to work" as a competition.

Are you genuinely hung up on this? I am asking how optimizing relates to competitive games.

Optimizing on boards like these is essentially a competition between other optimizers.

Even if you don't want to see it that way, I did specifically say that it is at least a puzzle. Find the quickest route is a puzzle. This is clearly both in the OP and has nothing to do with the actual thrust of the thread.

Or are you just trolling? I don't get it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Optimizing is essentially treating D&D as a competition.
Still wrong about that. Faulty premise remains faulty.

[willdaBEAST]

I came to DnD from seemingly the opposite direction.

I'm a very competitive person and starting with Warcraft 3 tried to get as good as possible at the game. I was pretty good/very good, but not top tier.

Following that I played endless amounts of the original Dota (the WC3 custom map), played in a lot of tournaments and while I competed with the best teams, was never at that level.

Around when LoL and Heroes of Newerth (HoN) came out, I invested my time in HoN and briefly became a fringe pro gamer. I only ended up making about $700-900 after winning multiple tournaments (you have a team of at least 5 so the purse is divided and there were no major million dollar tournaments then), but was flown to play live and put up in a classy hotel for a tournament.

I then more or less stopped trying to be as good as possible, but messed around with HotS (heroes of the storm) and eventually made it to Grand Master (their top rated players).

The reason I detail all of that is because I came to DnD late and had absolutely no interest in applying any of that competitive drive towards the game. I don't like min-maxing or optimization, especially if the player seems to have no interest in roleplaying. I always try to make a character that is effective, but generally go for an out of the box approach. In my mind there are games that are focused on competition and DnD isn't one of them. I think you can skew it in that direction, but there are going to other games better suited to that mentality.

I do think that had I started playing DnD in my 20's or earlier, I likely would've taken a more min-max/optimization approach. Perhaps devoting so much time to competitive head to head or team games diminished that need for me personally and I now play DnD for different reasons, primarily roleplaying and storytelling.

I also play a lot of pickup basketball and I would say those team oriented skills greatly apply as a DM, but also significantly as a player. It helps a lot in working with others and trying to keep them engaged.

[KorvinStarmast]

Around when LoL and Heroes of Newerth (HoN) came out, I invested my time in HoN and briefly became a fringe pro gamer. I only ended up making about $700-900 after winning multiple tournaments (you have a team of at least 5 so the purse is divided and there were no major million dollar tournaments then), but was flown to play live and put up in a classy hotel for a tournament. My son got to challenger with his team (5's) in LoL for a brief while a few years ago. (He played some DoTA but never got that high in that game). Didn't as far as I know ever get to that "pro, I'll pay you to play" level. Sounds like you got to a next level or two of success, so goodonya! HoTS is good fun, but I'm not someone you want on your team in a PvP five on five match. Not at that level.

In re basketball: nice analogy/similarity point.

[Lorsa]

Are you genuinely hung up on this? I am asking how optimizing relates to competitive games.

Optimizing on boards like these is essentially a competition between other optimizers.

Even if you don't want to see it that way, I did specifically say that it is at least a puzzle. Find the quickest route is a puzzle. This is clearly both in the OP and has nothing to do with the actual thrust of the thread.

Or are you just trolling? I don't get it.

Indeed, it is a puzzle. If you used that angle I would agree with you.

If I am hung up on it? Well, a little bit. I am not sure what your end goal is really, but your premise seems to be misleading.

As for "competitive games", that is a very broad term. Do you mean any games that could potentially be played competitively, or do you mean actually approaching them in a competitive manner?

For example, I have played football (also known as soccer in the US). That is a competitive game. I can't say it has helped my D&D optimization skills a single bit though.

I have also been playing a lot of card and board games in a non-competitive manner. That certainly did help my D&D optimization skills.

I have also played some games which rely on pure optimization (like the above-mentioned Utopia and similar games), which I found to be quite enjoyable for a time. Until I figured out that once you have found the "perfect optimization point", there is no longer no way to go. The game simply stops. This is why I prefer games where much more fluid tactics are needed (say, games like Starcraft (the original, in which I took part in a Swedish national tournament once)).

[Willie the Duck]

Well you do get the award for being the only one so far who has understood the thread.

I suppose reading comprehension isn't a competition, but still - 1st place.



Are you genuinely hung up on this? I am asking how optimizing relates to competitive games.

Optimizing on boards like these is essentially a competition between other optimizers.

Even if you don't want to see it that way, I did specifically say that it is at least a puzzle. Find the quickest route is a puzzle. This is clearly both in the OP and has nothing to do with the actual thrust of the thread.

Or are you just trolling? I don't get it.

You really don't get it, do you? Other people are reading and comprehending correctly to the words you put down and responding rationally (and, whether you disagree with them or otherwise, they certainly aren't trolling). If you started with an expressed premise that others disagree with, then the fault lays in your poor communication skills, not the other way around.

Now, you are correct, you did provide a backup interpretation of optimizing as a puzzle to be solved, and people aren't engaging with that (nor the central point you undoubtedly wanted this thread to be about, how much optimization skills and frameworks learned in D&D and in other games can cross-pollinate). However, you stated a position that "Optimizing is essentially treating D&D as a competition," and people are (with greater or lesser degrees of politeness) relatively straightforwardly disagreeing with that initial premise.

If you were interested in returning this thread to an attempt to explore the question you seem to have initially been trying to explore, you could have (an possibly still could, although I believe you have already poisoned the well here) said something like, "sorry, my initial phrasing unnecessarily created a conflict, my point was not that people were competing with others, but that optimization is often seen as a self-competition or form of sport or the like. Like I later said, as a puzzle. Now, my main question was more..." and people would probably have followed that lead. Instead declaring that others were not understanding, or hung up on things, well, you are getting the pushback you deserve.

I know this probably sounds didactic and presumptive, but this is not the first thread on this board where someone gets into a massive blowup and then proceeds to look around everywhere-but-in-the-mirror for people to blame. You could have started this thread better, and when it went south, you could have turned it around. You chose not to.