Help with my first game!

[Veritas7]

So I'm a new Pathfinder GM and new to GitP (I definitely haven't been lurking for two years with no account). One of our campaigns at 15th level died a while back before it could really get off the ground, and I want to resurrect it because my friends and I all really want to see it succeed, because we made really good characters and did some quality roleplaying before our GM quit. My friends voted that I was the one with the most rules knowledge and should GM the campaign, and I'd been planning to start GMing this summer anyway, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

The campaign has seven players, each playing a character that corresponds to one of the Seven Deadly Sins. The party is evil, and we're starting at 15th level as mentioned above. The first couple arcs will revolve around them attracting the attention of the archdevils and fulfilling mercenary contracts for them in exchange for power.

Long story short, I would like any tips you guys can offer on managing the campaign and coming up with the details of the story. The party's looking very powerful, so I would especially appreciate some advice on how to challenge them.

[Silva Stormrage]

So I'm a new Pathfinder GM and new to GitP (I definitely haven't been lurking for two years with no account). One of our campaigns at 15th level died a while back before it could really get off the ground, and I want to resurrect it because my friends and I all really want to see it succeed, because we made really good characters and did some quality roleplaying before our GM quit. My friends voted that I was the one with the most rules knowledge and should GM the campaign, and I'd been planning to start GMing this summer anyway, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

The campaign has seven players, each playing a character that corresponds to one of the Seven Deadly Sins. The party is evil, and we're starting at 15th level as mentioned above. The first couple arcs will revolve around them attracting the attention of the archdevils and fulfilling mercenary contracts for them in exchange for power.

Long story short, I would like any tips you guys can offer on managing the campaign and coming up with the details of the story. The party's looking very powerful, so I would especially appreciate some advice on how to challenge them.

Ouch, 15th level for your first time DMing a campaign?

Thats... a challenge. Speaking as someone who was quite decent at optimization when I first started playing I had a lot of difficulties playing a high level campaign as my first.

I am more familiar with 3.5 rather than pathfinder but I imagine all the main components are mostly the same.

Biggest suggestion I can give you is make your campaign modular and flexible. At that level the PC's WILL go off the rails unless they are really not trying. Have minor archedukes of Hell with goals already made, if one falls then another one already introduced into the campaign can take his role, if not necessarily the same goals.

The main thing at that level is what are your PC's? What optimization level do they play at? What classes are they? What style of play do they like (Railroady, sandbox, etc) and what style are you planning on running?

Spellcasters at that level are much more valuable than melee fighters.

[Geddy2112]

Second that a 15th level game is really hard to manage for a new DM. Hell, I would say that it is hard for an experienced GM if your players are even halfway decent optimizers. Also, evil PC's can be a problem for newer DM's, but I don't think any issues will come up since the whole party is evil and the campaign is evil focused. Just be ready for your players to go hard E, possibly for the lulz. This normally only lasts a session or two for most players to get out their deep dark fantasies, unless you have a particularly edgy player in your group in which case you might need to be careful.

At this level, martial characters are basically meatshields for casters, which are basically superheroes bordering on deity level. They can teleport across worlds and planes easily, so few barriers or classic dungeons will even remotely challenge or hold them. Agree that they won't just go off the rails, but that they can pretty much choose how things happen. You have to be ready to throw the same at them-extraplanar forces of good(and evil) can also teleport across worlds and the like. Archdevils and similar things have stats and can die, and even though their stupid high CR is a deterrant, a smart party of 7 could kill one. Just be ready for when they gank the questgiver and raze cities left and right.

All this in mind, talk to your players about what they want and expect. Since you already agreed to do this, I assume you have covered most of the bases. Just be sure to outline goals and know the power of characters they are building, particularly any tier 1 casters. I would not ban players from doing anything, but a good way to deter the most gamebreaking stuff is to just remind the players that turnabout is fair play. Build to their power level, and remind them that as the DM, you have infinite resources and can break or bend rules the players cannot.

[Veritas7]

The main thing at that level is what are your PC's? What optimization level do they play at? What classes are they? What style of play do they like (Railroady, sandbox, etc) and what style are you planning on running?



Well, I'm not too sure what style this will end up being, but the players of the campaign's original version had most of the party being pretty decently balanced. If I'm being honest, I was playing a Treantmonk-style summoning and battlefield-control focused wizard as Pride the first time around, and he was the cheesiest of the bunch by a bit. If the new characters (or replayed old ones, who knows) end up being anything like the old ones, then balance should turn out okay if I'm not part of the party.

For modularity and flexibility, I was basically thinking of having all the world's NPCs statted out with power roughly increasing with their social station. So terrorizing a town isn't difficult, but major cities are going to have a corps of paladins and abjuration mages dedicated to keeping them safe, and the kings and lords are going to have class levels that the common folk don't have. So the loftier goals the PCs decide to pursue, the harder they'll have to work and plan.

A major concern from the first iteration of the campaign is that the GM wasn't very fond of divination spells because they tended to spoil the plot, so he wasn't very forthcoming on details. This led us to a more kick-in-the-door-and-vaporize-everybody style of gameplay, which is fine, but it puts me in a corner as a GM: how do I make that lack of planning viable without making the enemies weak? Or conversely, is there a way to get the players to break that habit without outright telling them?

[Geddy2112]

For modularity and flexibility, I was basically thinking of having all the world's NPCs statted out with power roughly increasing with their social station. So terrorizing a town isn't difficult, but major cities are going to have a corps of paladins and abjuration mages dedicated to keeping them safe, and the kings and lords are going to have class levels that the common folk don't have. So the loftier goals the PCs decide to pursue, the harder they'll have to work and plan.
At this high of level, I would let players narrative massacre and burn down podunk villages, thorps, and hamlets. If the highest level in the village is below 5, don't bother using combat mechanics or giving stats to the people, and don't even track abilities unless it is an adventuring day, or they want to use a particularly high level spell. A good twist on this is to have some angels or high level NPC's roll in at the end and have that be the actual fight. Likewise, you can have one or two major fights in larger cities and just handwave the rest. Perhaps the cleric is sufficiently high level and has a small contingent of divine warriors. Perhaps the mayor was an old adventurer and has recruited a small band. You can make a few major encounters and have those get nitty gritty grindy, keep the rest in the background.


A major concern from the first iteration of the campaign is that the GM wasn't very fond of divination spells because they tended to spoil the plot, so he wasn't very forthcoming on details. This led us to a more kick-in-the-door-and-vaporize-everybody style of gameplay, which is fine, but it puts me in a corner as a GM: how do I make that lack of planning viable without making the enemies weak? Or conversely, is there a way to get the players to break that habit without outright telling them?
Let the players know you are doing divination differently. Divination should give enough detail to help the players make descisions without directly telling them the answers. Most divination spells are limited by nature to prevent this.

[Veritas7]

Alright, that sounds like a solid plan. Any recommendations for homebrew stuff? When should I homebrew and when should I stick to the SRD’s premades?

[Geddy2112]

For your players, I would probably ban homebrew(and 3rd party stuff) solely because you are a new GM. There is enough to keep track of in 1pp, and homebrewed things can be tough to judge the implications of.

For you, I would try my best to stick with stock monsters until you are comfortable. An easy fix is to simply tweak existing monsters instead of creating things from scratch. For example, you want an ice monster but you find an almost exact version that is fire based. Simply make all of the fire abilities do cold damage and thematic effects, give it immunity to fire, etc. You can turn wings into fins and vice versa, changing fly to swim speed, granting waterbreathing or taking it off. Likewise, you are generally safe swapping around skill ranks, and changing spells and SLA's for other spells of that ability. A lot of monsters can prepare spells, so you can have them prepare whatever spells you wish(and have some cast before the party meets them). If a monster has treasure, you can also have them equipped with magical items or use their treasure in their horde. Another option is templates, if you want to add a key ability here and there or juice something up.

[Veritas7]

How do you recommend I deal with monsters using magic items I don't want the PCs to have? Just roll the magic item's abilities into the monster's own statblock and remove the item altogether?

[Geddy2112]

How do you recommend I deal with monsters using magic items I don't want the PCs to have? Just roll the magic item's abilities into the monster's own statblock and remove the item altogether?

This is one way to do it, another is to just throw a template on. The advanced template is a massive ability boost and covers a lot of buffing items. It is far more critical to do this for NPC's, as they require magical swag(particularly martials like paladins). It is the pathfinder chart, but I would use automatic bonus progression (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/) for your NPC's to cover the "big six" items. This prevents your party from gaining a wagonful of stat boosting belts and headbands, rings of protection,cloaks of resistance, +1 weapons/armor, etc.

[Veritas7]

Yeah, we've been using Automatic Bonus Progression for everything for a couple of campaigns now. It's nice not to have six magic item slots just vanish because of necessary items.

That's all I can think of for now; thanks to both of you for your help! I might post on here later on (or make a new thread if the mods don't want me to necro this one) once the campaign's actually started and I start running into the real problems. :biggrin: