Advice on Modifying Skill Focus and Skill Mastery Feats

[theblasblas]

I'm thinking of modifying the skill focus and skill mastery feats by having the bonus scale based on level, and adding additional abilities so that they can provide more utility, but I need advice as to which modifications would be more beneficial to have first. Here's an example of how I plan to modify the jump skill.

Skill Focus(Jump)
No Req.
+4 bonus to jump skill checks. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter.
Jump is always a class skill, any cross-class ranks invested in jump become class ranks retroactively

Skill Mastery(Jump)
Req. 5 ranks in Jump
x10 jump distance. If there is no other movement during the round in which a creature jumps, the distance is no longer limited by movement speed. Alternatively, a creature can use a full-round action to move and jump, allowing for running long jumps.
During the descent of a jump, the creature gains a fly speed equivalent to the height jumped with average maneuverability. This cannot be used to obtain a higher altitude than the apex of a jump, and if the creature runs out of movement while airborn he falls down vertically.

Alternatively the two feats could be modified as such:

Skill Focus(Jump)
No Req.
+4 bonus to jump skill checks. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter.
x10 jump distance. If there is no other movement during the round in which a creature jumps, the distance is no longer limited by movement speed. Alternatively, a creature can use a full-round action to move and jump, allowing for running long jumps.

Skill Mastery(Jump)
Req. 5 ranks in Jump
Jump is always a class skill, any cross-class ranks invested in jump become class ranks retroactively
During the descent of a jump, the creature gains a fly speed equivalent to the height jumped with average maneuverability. This cannot be used to obtain a higher altitude than the apex of a jump, and if the creature runs out of movement while airborn he falls down vertically.


Which modification would be more useful?

*Edited for clarity* *Edited the bonus based on replies*

[Troacctid]

The first one is the best because it can be applied uniformly to all skills.

[Vhaidara]

The first one. The second locks cc jumpers to level 10 for the benefit

Also, commenting o the benefit, I hope you're ready for DnD pogo edition, since a 50ft horizontal jump with that feat is DC 10 (with no running start, allowing you to exceed your base move speed)

[theblasblas]

Okay, so it's the first one thanks.




Also, commenting o the benefit, I hope you're ready for DnD pogo edition, since a 50ft horizontal jump with that feat is DC 10 (with no running start, allowing you to exceed your base move speed)

Do you think I should decrease the multiplier or make it require a full round action? Personally, I don't think that it'll become too much of a problem unless everyone has these two feats as there is limited use against someone who doesn't have it except in chasing and running away, and even then it's constrained by terrain. Essentially it's meant to provide more utility through increased maneuverability.

To be honest, this is just another attempt at "Buffing Martials" by letting skills do crazy ****. In that context do you think this example is good enough or is it a waste of two feats?

[Troacctid]

I think you're just underestimating how absurd a multiplier 10x is.

[Elkad]

I think you're just underestimating how absurd a multiplier 10x is.

This. Getting a 50 on a jump check at mid-levels is fairly trivial*. Which translates to flying 500' in a single round.

*Example.
7th level Raptoran Barbarian with Haste up. (speed 70)
+16 speed, +10 wings, +7str, 10 ranks, 3 Skill Focus, 2 Tumble synergy. 1d20+48, and it doesn't even have Masterwork Jumping Boots yet, or stances, buff spells, etc.

A Xeph on Burst can do the same thing, with an extra 20' of speed (+8) substituting for the wings (+10).

If you actually try to optimize it a bit, you'll be outranging Dimension Door, every round, without expenditure of resources.

[Deophaun]

I think you're just underestimating how absurd a multiplier 10x is.
Especially as Jump can be easily optimized. I'd have characters jumping 600 feet without trying. Which is great for a super hero game.

[theblasblas]

This. Getting a 50 on a jump check at mid-levels is fairly trivial*. Which translates to flying 500' in a single round...

If you actually try to optimize it a bit, you'll be outranging Dimension Door, every round, without expenditure of resources.

It's intentional. This is a feat afterall, a fairly limited resource, outpacing a spell or two isn't bad, especially if you factor in all the optimization that goes into your example, it even requires another spell: Haste. In any case Dimension Door has it's advantages, namely you can take people with you and it can go through walls. Also in your example the jump would be a full round action whereas Dimension Door is a standard action. I'm actually starting to think that x10 isn't enough, but any more would break even MY suspension of disbelief XD

[Caelestion]

Personally, I'd want to model a comparable spell directly, e.g. Jump Mastery would allow you to use jump at will as an Ex effect, with an effective caster level equal to your character level. You would also be counted as always having a running start with no maximum vertical height.

[Elkad]

I'm actually starting to think that x10 isn't enough, but any more would break even MY suspension of disbelief XD

Bounding along at 60-100mph all day didn't do that already?
I could deal with it if it had some limits. Superhuman jump then you can't do it again for 3 rounds, or the rest of the encounter, or it fatigues you until you rest for 1 minute, or you can only do it CL/day.

It breaks ranged/skirmish/kiting/flight combat too. "I shoot him from 7 range increments out with my composite longbow". "OK, you hit. He jumps and lands next to you."

[ericgrau]

Skill Focus(Jump)
No Req.
+1 bonus to jump skill checks per 2 character levels
Jump is always a class skill, any cross-class ranks invested in jump become class ranks retroactively


NOPE. Too binary. It will be useless early and for some skills, and too high later and too good for some other skills. For the most part it will still be a useless feat, and in very rare cases will be used to break things. Then those might get banned, and it'll just be a useless feat again.

Giving benefits besides skills is an idea, except then the skill part is still close to useless and what you're really doing is making a bunch of new feats from scratch. Which you can do without working with skills.

Change skill focus to a flat +4 or +5. Change the double feats to +3/+3 or +4/+4. Allow retraining. Continue to discourage players from using these feats at all, but say they may want them sometimes. Granting them as class skills is fine, even for the double feats. Allowing 3 for the price of 2 for skill focus and matching double feats isn't a bad idea either. Still allow retraining for this deal. Call it a day.

[theblasblas]

Bounding along at 60-100mph all day didn't do that already?


In a world where spellcasters can teleport for miles, cause death with a scream or bend reality? Not really.




It breaks ranged/skirmish/kiting/flight combat too. "I shoot him from 7 range increments out with my composite longbow". "OK, you hit. He jumps and lands next to you."

I'd say it "balances" it rather than "breaking" it. In combat this simply allows melee characters to reach far away opponents without dying, and without needing magical help. A ranged character doesn't become automatically helpless upon entering melee and can still defend himself, and most likely still managed to get one hit off and hence is still at an advantage. Jumping far ahead of your team is also risky.

[Elkad]

So what about the other skills?

If I take Skill Mastery:Survival, do I get to read the enemy's character sheet I look at his footprints?

Skill Mastery:Ride changes my horse's speed from feet per round to miles per round? (Better buy it a Necklace of Adaption, accidentally hitting escape velocity and sailing into orbit would be a real hazard)

Skill Mastery:Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering) lets me build the Taj Mahal in an afternoon out of beetle dung and sticks?

Skill Mastery:Listen lets me hear thoughts?

[Cosi]

This should be one feat. Give the numeric bonus at low levels, then the better bonus at a certain number of ranks. A single digit (until 20th level) bonus to a single skill is not worth a feat.

[Deophaun]

I want to point out that Sleight of Hand already has it's "Mastery" version in 3.5: Master Pickpocket from City of Stormreach. In general I find feats that let you do new things with a skill to be far preferable than one that just gives you a bigger bonus because skills can already be pumped into the stratosphere.

Skill Mastery:Listen lets me hear thoughts?
I'd be tempted to just remove listening lorecall and make it a feat sans the insight bonus.

[Bucky]

I have a homebrew Expert variant prepared that gets Skill Focus as a bonus feat and then grants additional bonuses. Let's see which of the class features can be carved out into feats or pieces thereof...

(low level)
* Existing Skill focus bonus PLUS 1/2 level (round down).
* Counts as having one extra rank in the skill (early entry!)
* Can always take 10

(high level - these would be feats down the chain)
* Takes half time on extended skill checks, but can't reduce them below 1 round. For example, a Master Climber can scale high walls twice as fast, and a Master Crafter can get a day's work done in 4 hours.
* Has an aura granting the base Skill Focus bonus to allies - great for stealth skills.

[King of Nowhere]

what would it do to diplomacy? a middle level bard could persuade all kings of the world to abdicate to him. actually, one may already do that, depending on how much cheese one allows.

And martials can get by pretty well anyway if they have a party to take care of scry and die stuff. I made the same mistake, trying to fix class imbalance by giving huge boosts to martials (in my case was in the form of crazy overpowered items) and I regretted it.


Fluff-wise, if you want to jump hundreds of meters just call it a supernatural or spell like ability.

[theblasblas]

So what about the other skills?



I'm still working it out.

I'm thinking Swim Mastery gives you permanent, non-magical Freedom Of Movement while underwater and a Swim speed equal to your normal mode of movement.

Hide gives you non-magical invisibility until you make an offensive action but someone who makes their Spot check can see you(fluff being you're not really invisible, just unnoticeable)

Move Silently makes you immune to blindsense, blindsight, detect spells and truesight until you make an offensive action but is similarly affected by Listen checks(fluff being you "silence" your aura).

Climb gives you a climb speed equal to your normal mode of movement., and lets you attack with both hands while climbing

Balance halves balance DCs, and lets you fight normally while balancing(can make AOO, and use feats that would normally .

Use Magic Device allows you to make wands, staves and rods(when applicable) misfire with a touch attack, and dispel magic with a touch attack(like how Index from Toaru counters magic without using magic). Either can be ranged for a higher DC.

Appraise lets you identify the functions of a magic item in and out of combat with a swift action, and lets you "fake" the value of items you have the Craft skill for by adding embellishments that make it look more valuable.

Gather information lets you figure out the feats, current HP(and other important information as may be decided by the DM) of a character with a swift action. Also a swift action, it will allow you to know what spells a caster has prepared. DC dependent on enemy HD.

Heal lets you give temporary hp up until the max hp of the character(something like a temporary heal by patching them up), and treat any condition by forcing a saving throw that uses the Heal check. You also automatically stabilize when at -1 hp or below.

I'm also thinking of having the Skill Focus version of the Craft, Perform and Profession skills allow you to pick up an additional sub-skill at ranks 5, 10, 15 and 20.

I'm not sure about the others.

Most of the active abilities are going to have DCs, but I don't know what they're going to be yet. I'm going mostly by rule of cool, and taking inspiration from Wuxia and anime.

[BassoonHero]

I'm a big fan of this sort of thing in principle, but putting these abilities behind feats seems unnecessarily restrictive and costly. I think that skill tricks are a better mechanism for this sort of thing.

[Hunter Noventa]

Gather information lets you figure out the feats, current HP(and other important information as may be decided by the DM) of a character with a swift action. Also a swift action, it will allow you to know what spells a caster has prepared. DC dependent on enemy HD.


I feel like there was a feat that let you do this with Sense Motive myself, though not to that degree.

And the first step of buffing skills in 3.5 is to take the skill system from PF, getting rid of the whole 1/2 rank nonsense with cross-class skills and condensing some skills together.

[theblasblas]

This should be one feat. Give the numeric bonus at low levels, then the better bonus at a certain number of ranks. A single digit (until 20th level) bonus to a single skill is not worth a feat.

Hmm, really? I think as it is now the benefits are at the point where it'd be too much for a single feat, but not enough for two feats. Due to what ericgrau said, I'm thinking of making the bonus be "+4 bonus to jump. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter" instead. Maybe instead of making them one skill I could add an additional benefit to the Skill Focus feat? Always allowed to Take 10 and allowed to Take 20 if it's a skill affected by Rogue's Skill Mastery, maybe? What would you suggest?


what would it do to diplomacy? a middle level bard could persuade all kings of the world to abdicate to him. actually, one may already do that, depending on how much cheese one allows.

And martials can get by pretty well anyway if they have a party to take care of scry and die stuff. I made the same mistake, trying to fix class imbalance by giving huge boosts to martials (in my case was in the form of crazy overpowered items) and I regretted it.


Fluff-wise, if you want to jump hundreds of meters just call it a supernatural or spell like ability.

Well, another reason why I'm doing this is to make Martials more fun, make them less bland to play, give them something to do that others can't. Fluffwise, I like to think that there are characters in the DnD-verse that are just so strong or skilled that they're able to do crazy stuff without it being magic.

I think that high level play itself being defined by scry and die is something that's "wrong" in the DnD system. Of course this is just personal opinion, and I'm not saying that there's a wrong way to play, but I prefer games that don't rely on such stuff, and that's why I'm trying to think of way to change up gameplay.

Anyway, the only way I think that this Jumping skill can break the game is if the character who had it kept jumping on enemies like a cross between Mario and a Dragoon. However, damage by falling objects, like Gate, Wish, Miracle, Astral Projection and, in my opinion, most Divination spells, is something that should be nerfed anyway in most games.

[Troacctid]

On the other hand, how do you think monks will feel about your making their movement speed irrelevant? What about mounted fighters—will they be happy that the foot soldiers are moving faster than a mount at full charge?

[theblasblas]

I feel like there was a feat that let you do this with Sense Motive myself, though not to that degree.

And the first step of buffing skills in 3.5 is to take the skill system from PF, getting rid of the whole 1/2 rank nonsense with cross-class skills and condensing some skills together.

I personally prefer there being more skills, and just giving each class more skillpoints. Climb and Jump feel far too distinct for me to lump them into acrobatics, and so do Hide and Move Silently. They're thematically very similar, but.... uhm, "physically" very different, I guess?


I'm a big fan of this sort of thing in principle, but putting these abilities behind feats seems unnecessarily restrictive and costly. I think that skill tricks are a better mechanism for this sort of thing.

I like how skill tricks are earned... but the limit of once per encounter feels far too limiting to me. Though that may simply be because the DM I'm most experienced with likes long encounters with large numbers of weak mooks, and I personally prefer those kinds of encounters as well.

[theblasblas]

On the other hand, how do you think monks will feel about your making their movement speed irrelevant? What about mounted fighters—will they be happy that the foot soldiers are moving faster than a mount at full charge?

How do they already feel about casters with Fly or Expeditious Retreat spells? Kidding aside. They have greater flexibility in movement than a jumping character, and not everyone is going to be taking Jump Mastery. The main benefit of mounted combat is in charging and ride by attacks. In a way their already increased movement just means that they're free to take other feats. Letting a chain of two feats subsume a single aspect of another class isn't something too worrisome. Monk is already a broken class anyway, in a bad way, and needs to be fixed in its own right.

Another homebrew fix we use at our table is to scale x-foot-step by movement speed. Where x=movementspeed/6 or an extra square for every 30 feet of movement speed. Someone at this forum suggested it should be every 30 above 20 instead.

[martixy]

I suggest looking at Pathfinder.
No use in reinventing the wheel. For the fourth time.

Also keep in mind this little sentence in the Jump description:

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

[Deophaun]

On the other hand, how do you think monks will feel about your making their movement speed irrelevant?
The base game did a good job of that already by making it an enhancement bonus.

[theblasblas]

I suggest looking at Pathfinder.
No use in reinventing the wheel. For the fourth time.

Also keep in mind this little sentence in the Jump description:

That sentence in the Jump description is precisely why this is a part of Jump Master: "If there is no other movement during the round in which a creature jumps, the distance is no longer limited by movement speed. Alternatively, a creature can use a full-round action to move and jump, allowing for running long jumps."

In any case the skill modification in Pathfinder isn't strong enough in my opinion, in fact they mostly just combined some skills and changed up some rules, they didn't really make these skill stronger such that they can be comparable to spells.

[Goaty14]

I think the real problem here that people have issue with isn't quite that you can jump the equivalent of a teleport each round, but that you can do it *at will*, which only really happens with primal scholar *cheese*.

So you're jumping around now that Usain Bolt is holding your ale, but what if the supposed wizard you're comparing yourself against decides he could just hitch a ride with you on his back, stops preparing teleport, and instead now prepares an empowered fireball?

Checkmate.

[theblasblas]

I think the real problem here that people have issue with isn't quite that you can jump the equivalent of a teleport each round, but that you can do it *at will*, which only really happens with primal scholar *cheese*.

So you're jumping around now that Usain Bolt is holding your ale, but what if the supposed wizard you're comparing yourself against decides he could just hitch a ride with you on his back, stops preparing teleport, and instead now prepares an empowered fireball?

Checkmate.

Then you're doing teamwork, and you finally have a role in the group other than "whack it with a big stick"? Anyway, this is more comparable to Dimension Door than Teleport, the distance of teleport is measured in hundreds of miles.

Being better than Wizards at one thing among the 99 things they can do for two feats isn't overpowered at all.

[Goaty14]

Then you're doing teamwork, and you finally have a role in the group other than "whack it with a big stick"? Anyway, this is more comparable to Dimension Door than Teleport, the distance of teleport is measured in hundreds of miles.

-Dimension Door doesn't require line of effect, while jumping... duh
-Then wouldn't it also be teamwork for the fighter to whack the enemy with a big stick while the wizard teleports the fighter? Not spending two feats and a bunch of skill ranks could net the fighter shock trooper or combat brute as well.


Being better than Wizards at one thing among the 99 things they can do for two feats isn't overpowered at all.

Such as how having infinite damage also isn't overpowered? I think you missed my first statement: It's not "OP" that a martial character can jump that far at any given time, instead it's "OP" that they can keep going and going and going...

I don't want to rant too much, but I'd draw the equivalency between characters doing stuff like this without end to an arcane swordsage.

[theblasblas]

-Dimension Door doesn't require line of effect, while jumping... duh.


Neither does teleport, what's your point?



-Then wouldn't it also be teamwork for the fighter to whack the enemy with a big stick while the wizard teleports the fighter? Not spending two feats and a bunch of skill ranks could net the fighter shock trooper or combat brute as well.


The Fighter could jump to the enemy and then whack it with a big stick, leaving the Wizard to do something else. "Teamwork" doesn't mean "has to rely on others to be useful". Heck, even if the Fighter didn't have the option of jumping to the enemy the Wizard probably wouldn't Dimension Door with the fighter considering he in high likelihood has more effective spells to cast, leaving the fighter to go run up to the enemy.

Really, as it is now, most of the "optimized" feats for fighters are things like Dungeoncrasher


-Dimension Door doesn't require line of effect, while jumping... duh
-Then wouldn't it also be teamwork for the fighter to whack the enemy with a big stick while the wizard teleports the fighter? Not spending two feats and a bunch of skill ranks could net the fighter shock trooper or combat brute as well.



Such as how having infinite damage also isn't overpowered? I think you missed my first statement: It's not "OP" that a martial character can jump that far at any given time, instead it's "OP" that they can keep going and going and going...

I don't want to rant too much, but I'd draw the equivalency between characters doing stuff like this without end to an arcane swordsage.

Unless for some reason you're not fixing the broken "Damage from falling objects rule", unlimited jumping doesn't provide infinite damage. And if we're going to be RAW about it, that rule specifies "objects" which creatures aren't. Again, my point is what's wrong with being able to jump up 100 feet in the air an unlimited numbers of times? What makes it overpowered? It's ONE thing. The usefulness of such a thing is rather limited and so despite having unlimited uses, it's not something that you'll do an unlimited number of times.

[BassoonHero]

I like how skill tricks are earned... but the limit of once per encounter feels far too limiting to me.
I've ignored that rule for so long that I forgot it existed at all. I recommend doing the same.

[Goaty14]

Neither does teleport, what's your point?

Asserting a fact, not making a point.


Really, as it is now, most of the "optimized" feats for fighters are things like Dungeoncrasher

Which is respectable damage for its level. Most blasters would drool over repeated 2d6 (at level 2) damage until your enemy dies. Actually no, the most optimized fighter is guaranteed to be a charger.


Unless for some reason you're not fixing the broken "Damage from falling objects rule".

When did I say that the infinite damage came from a really good jumping capability? I was conveying that "it's better than what a wizard does" is a bad argument because it doesn't address how much better it is.


Again, my point is what's wrong with being able to jump up 100 feet in the air an unlimited numbers of times? What makes it overpowered? The usefulness of such a thing is rather limited and so despite having unlimited uses, it's not something that you'll do an unlimited number of times.

-Allows you to shuffle your position in the battlefield at-will (others too, depending how many you can carry)
-Kills the fighter (without innate access to feather fall, jumping 100' into the air deals 8-10d6 dmg)
-Allows you to bypass enemies (jumps over the city gate, jumps over the onrushing horde of orcs... etc)
---Negates the use of tumble to get past enemies.

[theblasblas]

Asserting a fact, not making a point.


Okaaaay.... :smallconfused:







Which is respectable damage for its level. Most blasters would drool over repeated 2d6 (at level 2) damage until your enemy dies. Actually no, the most optimized fighter is guaranteed to be a charger.



So a sub-optimal caster build would drool over something that a optimized Fighter can do early on... until they become capable of completely trumping Fighters in terms of damage later on and they can still provide more utility than the fighter.





When did I say that the infinite damage came from a really good jumping capability? I was conveying that "it's better than what a wizard does" is a bad argument because it doesn't address how much better it is.



It's a false equivalence as, as I have pointed out, unlimited super jumps isn't as useful as infinite damage. It isn't something that will break games. It's not a bad thing if it makes that one thing out of 99 things that a wizard can do obsolete. "I don't have to carry the Fighter with dimension door anymore? Yay!"




-Allows you to shuffle your position in the battlefield at-will
-Kills the fighter (without innate access to feather fall, jumping 100' into the air deals 8-10d6 dmg)
-Allows you to bypass enemies (jumps over the city gate, jumps over the onrushing horde of orcs... etc)
---Negates the use of tumble to get past enemies.

One thing that can be applied to multiple situations based on creativity, it's a good thing.

-You can only jump in a straight line. Battlefield obstructions. Unless all your fights are on a wide open field this ability isn't as "unlimited" as you make it out to be. Even if it did allow the fighter to shuffle his position at-will, would that really be such a bad thing?
-A ring of feather falling is cheap, or just take ranks in tumble. If you're planning to take this feat and make use of it, of course you're going to be taking items and skills that help you use it better. And again, you're not supposed to use this every single time.
-Again limited scenarios. Why wouldn't you want to give Martials a method of bypassing enemies in certain scenarios?
-Unless you jump high enough on your long jump that you're out of reach you still get AOO'd.

Why is it that you seem intent on keeping the Fighter as a class that does the same thing over and over again until all the enemies are dead?

[Troacctid]

So why 10x? Why not 20x? Why not 100x?

[Goaty14]

It's a false equivalence as, as I have pointed out, unlimited super jumps isn't as useful as infinite damage.

Actually you have not pointed this out, though I can assume that killing anything you can hit befits a murderhobo greatly. It's still much, much better than a dimension door, and could be as good as a teleport presuming you don't have to cross a large body of water.


It isn't something that will break games.

Just as how teleport causes no grief whatsoever (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=D%26D+3.5+dealing+with+teleport)?


One thing that can be applied to multiple situations based on creativity, it's a good thing.

Until it goes from "Yay, player creativity" to "Oh, you're doing *that* again?"


Why is it that you seem intent on keeping the Fighter as a class that does the same thing over and over again until all the enemies are dead?

If I wanted my fighters to be half-kangaroo, I wouldn't name them something that very clearly defines their purpose in the other direction, no? That's not to say that they should be something like "roll d20s, roll dmg, repeat". Even if you didn't use maneuvers, the warblade is just as good, if not better, than the fighter.

I'm against your idea because it adds obscene numbers to the game, in particular the part about "you make the jump in 1 round, even if it's bigger than your movement speed".

[theblasblas]

So why 10x? Why not 20x? Why not 100x?

Thematic reasons mostly, while mechanically 10x is just as useful as 100x(except when travelling), 10x is fare more believable. It's within the realms of "super strength" that's common in anime.

My main consideration as to the 10x multiplier is that it's around the minimum multiplier that allows for things like jumping over castle walls. In that case then, perhaps the multiplier should be different for high jumps and long jumps? High jumps are much too weak in DnD.

Would you consider it more balanced if it was a 10x multiplier for high jumps and a 5x multiplier for long jumps?

[theblasblas]

Actually you have not pointed this out, though I can assume that killing anything you can hit befits a murderhobo greatly. It's still much, much better than a dimension door, and could be as good as a teleport presuming you don't have to cross a large body of water.


Great it's better than a single spell from the nigh-limitless repertoire of the wizard, the wizard is now a worthless class and no one will play it anymore./sarc


[SIZE=1]
Just as how teleport causes no grief whatsoever (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=D%26D+3.5+dealing+with+teleport)?


The main issue with teleport is that it allows you to skip travel, and it's role in Scry and die tactics. Super jumps can do neither of these things. You'll still be travelling, even if you're jumping at 100mph, so the DM can stil interject and say something like, "As you're jumping you spot a flock of wyverns headed in your direction" or "From your vantage point from above the clouds you spot a caravan getting attacked by bandits". But with teleport? Boom, you're there no time to interject.

As for scry and die? Your enemies will see you jumping, and even if you're invisible you're going to make a lot of noise. And again, terrain, how are you going to jump into the Big Bad's throne room if it's in the innermost sanctum? The issue with teleport is that it doesn't care about most kinds of obstructions, there's little you can do to stop it except for claiming that the Big Bad has a special spell protecting his fortress, and you can only do that so many times until your players get pissed off at you.


[SIZE=1]
Until it goes from "Yay, player creativity" to "Oh, you're doing *that* again?"


When was the last time you heard, "Oh, you're casting magic missile again?" or "Oh, you're hitting it with your sword again?", that phrase is most often reserved for things like Scry and Die or other encounter enders. I think you're underestimating how much terrain limits jumping. In a way, Super jumps are extremely useful in situational encounters, and provides marginal benefit to most other combat encounters(by making it easier to chase stuff or run away).

Picture this, you're in a dungeon, the corridor is 20 feet high. When you do a long jump you reach 1/4 of the distance in height. Let's say you're 5 feet tall. What this means is that in that corridor you're only going to be able to jump 60 feet for a long jump, or else you'll bang your head on the ceiling. That's hardly obscene.

Even if you're on an open field, a level 10 Fighter with 13 in jump, +5 str snd +5 from the jump focus gets an average result of 38 which results in a standing long jump of 190 feet, which is comparable to a charging level 10 monk with the fleet of foot feat.

If you want obscene, teleport is 52,800 feet per caster level.


[SIZE=1]
If I wanted my fighters to be half-kangaroo, I wouldn't name them something that very clearly defines their purpose in the other direction, no? That's not to say that they should be something like "roll d20s, roll dmg, repeat". Even if you didn't use maneuvers, the warblade is just as good, if not better, than the fighter.


"Play Warblade" in no way helps validate the Fighter as a class, and I don't know about you, but I LOVE the concept of the Fighter. Because, here's the thing, while in practice it doesn't work out that way, in concept Fighters are meant to be the class that can act as if they're half-kangaroo if they train themselves to be able to. They're a class meant to have a self-made play-style and that's why they have a **** ton of feats. The problem is that most of those feats are literal ****. The idea is that the bonus fighter feats should be enough to allow you to be a decent combatant and so you'll use the normal feats to set your fighter apart from the rest. It gives this idea that if you choose the right feats you can be an anti-magic warrior, a warrior blacksmith, adragoon or a shieldmaiden, you can copy the archetypes you see in books and anime. But for the aforementioned reasons it just doesn't work out.


[SIZE=1]
I'm against your idea because it adds obscene numbers to the game, in particular the part about "you make the jump in 1 round, even if it's bigger than your movement speed".


Read my reply above. It only becomes obscene if you optimize it to hell and back to get an obscenely high jump score. Really, if you're that against obscene numbers go play 5e with their stupid bounded accuracy.

[DrMartin]

I like the idea to grant extra abilities with skill mastery. The bonus for skill focus not so much. Not relevant enough at first levels, where skills actually have the most impact on play. I think that works better in pathfinder: the bonus becomes +6 at level 10 (assuming you max the skill).

If you commit to skill mastery giving pseudo supernatural capabilities, you could do worst than browsing exalted 3 charms for inspiration. They cover the whole gamma from being better at the skill to being supernaturally good at the skill to tap into the skill's symbolic implications to do the impossible, break the unbreakable, you know the rest :)
Just make sure your players are on the same page, as it is not what one expects from d&d

Oh and I'd make these mastery feats available as fighter bonus feats, and ranger combat style, and monks bonus feat as well

[Troacctid]

Thematic reasons mostly, while mechanically 10x is just as useful as 100x(except when travelling), 10x is fare more believable. It's within the realms of "super strength" that's common in anime.

My main consideration as to the 10x multiplier is that it's around the minimum multiplier that allows for things like jumping over castle walls. In that case then, perhaps the multiplier should be different for high jumps and long jumps? High jumps are much too weak in DnD.

Would you consider it more balanced if it was a 10x multiplier for high jumps and a 5x multiplier for long jumps?
Minimum? A typical castle wall, according to Google, is about 30 to 40 feet high. In other words, about a DC 15 check with a running start. That's nearly impossible to fail for a 3rd level character. And that's for a full-on medieval-style castle. If you're just dealing with a simple palisade, you can likely clear it with a DC 5 check.

[Caelestion]

Presumably you're including the proposed x10 modifier to reach that DC?

[theblasblas]

I like the idea to grant extra abilities with skill mastery. The bonus for skill focus not so much. Not relevant enough at first levels, where skills actually have the most impact on play. I think that works better in pathfinder: the bonus becomes +6 at level 10 (assuming you max the skill).


Yeah, I've decided to make it "+4 to Jump skill checks. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter". Will be updating the first post in a bit. Aside from the bonus and becoming a class skill do you think I should add a third benefit?



If you commit to skill mastery giving pseudo supernatural capabilities, you could do worst than browsing exalted 3 charms for inspiration. They cover the whole gamma from being better at the skill to being supernaturally good at the skill to tap into the skill's symbolic implications to do the impossible, break the unbreakable, you know the rest :)
Just make sure your players are on the same page, as it is not what one expects from d&d

Oh and I'd make these mastery feats available as fighter bonus feats, and ranger combat style, and monks bonus feat as well

Row! Row! Fight the power! Haha, thanks, I'll check it out. Hmm, I wish there was a "Break stuff" skill. I've been contemplating a bit about what one "expects from DnD". For me and my friends at least, our primary foray into fantasy was anime and Warcraft, and we began playing DnD as a way to roleplay being in those fantasy worlds. Due to this we were sorely disappointed with Fighters, and after the first campaign anyone who wanted play a Martial went with TOB classes. Do we have any indication of what DnD should be? What fantasy its supposed to portray? I've heard that there are official novels based on DnD, what the usual role of high level Fighters in those worlds?

[theblasblas]

Minimum? A typical castle wall, according to Google, is about 30 to 40 feet high. In other words, about a DC 15 check with a running start. That's nearly impossible to fail for a 3rd level character. And that's for a full-on medieval-style castle. If you're just dealing with a simple palisade, you can likely clear it with a DC 5 check.

You have a point, 3rd level might be too early for Jump Mastery. Should I change the Req. so that you to have 9 ranks in Jump, making the earliest you can get this Level 6? Or maybe 10 ranks so that you have to be Level 9?

[martixy]

In any case the skill modification in Pathfinder isn't strong enough in my opinion, in fact they mostly just combined some skills and changed up some rules

They didn't "just combine some skills".

They fixed the fundamental unwieldiness of the system. Unwieldiness which you seem to preserve. Hence - check out the PF skill system.


they didn't really make these skill stronger such that they can be comparable to spells.
And I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Are you looking to make them comparable to spells? Cuz you sure didn't mention this in the OP.

[theblasblas]

They didn't "just combine some skills".

They fixed the fundamental unwieldiness of the system. Unwieldiness which you seem to preserve. Hence - check out the PF skill system.


And I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Are you looking to make them comparable to spells? Cuz you sure didn't mention this in the OP.

The intent is to modify the Skill Focus feats to allow them to make skills more useful, and allow for skill-based options that are useful in for the entire campaign. A common issue at our table is that skills like jump, climb, swim, balance etc. stop becoming relevant at higher levels, mostly because spells and items subsume their function.

I may have been oversimplifying the changes in Pathfinder with my statement. I haven't tried that system yet, but at least in the case of jumping, the rules for 3.5 and pathfinder are mostly the same.

[Cosi]

Hmm, really? I think as it is now the benefits are at the point where it'd be too much for a single feat, but not enough for two feats. Due to what ericgrau said, I'm thinking of making the bonus be "+4 bonus to jump. The bonus increases by 1 at character level 10 and for every 2 levels thereafter" instead. Maybe instead of making them one skill I could add an additional benefit to the Skill Focus feat? Always allowed to Take 10 and allowed to Take 20 if it's a skill affected by Rogue's Skill Mastery, maybe? What would you suggest?

My view is that abilities should grant things other than numeric bonuses. An ability that just gives you +whatever to something is boring. Abilities should do interesting things.

[Thurbane]

I think you're just underestimating how absurd a multiplier 10x is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdPo_UYMejo