'Dungeons & Dragons' to Announce New Settings for Fifth Edition Later This Year

[EvilAnagram]

In Greyhawk, the kings can be the most evil things around, and someone ought to do something about them.

The people might be decent, but they're generally neutral rather than good -- they're not cosmopolitan, they're not accepting of outsiders, they're not tolerant of strange religions or weird magic -- they're just people.

The natives who have been marginalized were not particularly noble savages. They were horrific necromancers and godly druids. The immigrants displacing them weren't particularly noble either -- they're either evil wizards and their pawns, or mercenary warrior-clans which rose up as robber-barons and then tyrant-kings. There are different natives in the southern jungles, but they're not noble either -- they're the ones using blood-magic.

You can ignore those gritty elements, and play it as a cartoon-morality heroic high fantasy romp if you want, but that's NOT the setting's default mode.

Paladins and Rangers were rare -- you had to roll really well -- while Thieves were common.

The default mode is that you're a treasure-hunting grave-robber.

I didn't mean to give the impression that it was cartoonish because you're right about the moral nuance. However, the wild lands that surrounded these nuanced civilizations were horrific places filled with evil that absolutely put the selfishness of civilization to shame. At its best (in my opinion), it's a setting in which the truly heroic desperately try to pull kingdoms away from their selfish desires to face more dire threats. The grit of the setting did a good job of highlighting your heroics.

Similarly, it's not technically correct to say that the good kingdoms of the Nentir Vale have fallen, as the tiefling empire was blatantly evil, and the other fallen civilizations were morally grey.

I suppose it's more accurate to say that Greyhawk is a setting in which civilization is under constant threat from outside forces, and it's often the heroes' job to save it, whereas the civilizations of the Nentir Vale have fallen, and you're left in the remnants.

[Nifft]

I didn't mean to give the impression that it was cartoonish because you're right about the moral nuance. However, the wild lands that surrounded these nuanced civilizations were horrific places filled with evil that absolutely put the selfishness of civilization to shame. At its best (in my opinion), it's a setting in which the truly heroic desperately try to pull kingdoms away from their selfish desires to face more dire threats. The grit of the setting did a good job of highlighting your heroics.

Similarly, it's not technically correct to say that the good kingdoms of the Nentir Vale have fallen, as the tiefling empire was blatantly evil, and the other fallen civilizations were morally grey.

I suppose it's more accurate to say that Greyhawk is a setting in which civilization is under constant threat from outside forces, and it's often the heroes' job to save it, whereas the civilizations of the Nentir Vale have fallen, and you're left in the remnants.

I like that comparison, and yeah Nentir Vale ("PoL-land") seemed like a really neat way to do a post-apoc rebuilding-from-the-ashes sort of game.

I also loved the fallen empire of the Tieflings. That's just such a great Sword & Sorcery element. OF COURSE the evil infernal empire would self-destruct, leaving ruins full of phat loot and horrors of another age. It's so brilliant that it seems obvious in retrospect.


Regarding Greyhawk's morality & civilization, it's true that the PC-race states faced external threats -- but they also faced internal threats. The Great Kingdom of Aerdy fell to the escalating infighting between its royal and/or noble houses, and now it's gone, split into several different states with separate governments.

Many of the "good" starting locations were actually independent city-states with mercantile interests.


While this is true, what I like from Greyhawk, is that good nation can and will go at war against other good nation as well because they have different view on something, or just because a nation wants ressources from it's neighbour, just like it happen in our world. While Greyhawk have as much fantastic elements as FR, the feel is closer to a medieval fantasy setting.

Yeah.

Good and evil aren't monolithic, and they can conflict with each other, and most people are neutral and they also conflict with each other -- you have a setting where sometimes the most good can be done by playing politics & cozying up to evil so you can point them where you want, or because you can't easily replace an evil or dark-neutral ruler so maybe you should try to social-fu that person into a better ruler.

Or where you don't save the king, you become the king, because honestly the other candidates don't look so great.

[EvilAnagram]

I like that comparison, and yeah Nentir Vale ("PoL-land") seemed like a really neat way to do a post-apoc rebuilding-from-the-ashes sort of game.


Now that I think about it, it's a bit like Wheel of Time in that respect. First there was Civilization, far-reaching and secure. Then it fell violently as hidden evils tore apart everything that had been built. Eventually, a Kingdom led by a Great King rose from the chaos, binding the remnants of Civilization together once more. However, the Kingdom also fell long ago, and now people live in isolated towns, with even the most powerful nations barely able to control the land surrounding their capitals.

[PhoenixPhyre]

From what I understand (and was responding to), the "new setting" will be similar to CoS, in that you'll pop in for an adventure path and then rejoin...wherever you were.

From that perspective, certain otherwise-good settings start to not be as interesting. Greyhawk, from an outsider's perspective, seems primarily different in tone from FR. That's not something that comes across well under those conditions. Eberron and Althas are too closed off. Nentir Vale (the original un-setting) is great for extended campaigns (my setting started as a NV ripoff), but doesn't catch my attention for a drop-in adventure.

I'm guessing something related to Planescape or Spelljammer. Or something out of left field entirely.

[Beleriphon]

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but what's the black obelisks in the adventures thus far? Some are important, some aren't, some are ruined, but they exist in each and every adventure path. Mearls' has been questioned on it and said he can't say anything, so there's something going on there. What do black obelisks have to do with different campaign settings?

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

I admit, while Greyhawk was the part of my first encounter with D&D, I'm not very familiar with it (not to the extent I'm familiar with Dragonlance, thanks to the novels, or FR, no thanks to general information osmosis caused by it being pretty much omnipresent anywhere D&D gets mentioned), but I always considered it more of a high fantasy setting, similar to FR.

What you post makes Greyhawk's classification as sword & sorcery setting used in DMG and... some other 5e book... make much more sense.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm tired of weirdos, special snowflakes and saving the world. Gimme a sword or an axe, a shield, some wilderness to explore and a bunch of orcs in an underground ruin whose layout doesn't make any sense, and I'm happy. If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP? :smallbiggrin:

[2D8HP]

If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP? :smallbiggrin:


So very down for this!

[ZorroGames]

If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP? :smallbiggrin:

One can only hope...

[Anonymouswizard]

If we can manage to find a way to bushwhack and slay Drzzt ... do we get bonus XP? :smallbiggrin:

If somebody from WotC is reading this, please make this into a module!

[ErHo]

If all the BS that was sent Drizzt's way havnt killed him, then what makes you think a party could in a module?

If its a 20+ campaign then I'd say you have a shot

[JackPhoenix]

If somebody from WotC is reading this, please make this into a module!

Die Drizzt die!?
Against the Drizzt?
Tomb of Drizzt?
Dead Drizzts?

[Beleriphon]

If somebody from WotC is reading this, please make this into a module!

There was some kind of official scenario for 4E that had you fight Drizzt. I don't remember the details, but I know it was a beast of a fight since Drizzt was statted up as a level 15 or 16 Solo creature.

[Nifft]

From what I understand (and was responding to), the "new setting" will be similar to CoS, in that you'll pop in for an adventure path and then rejoin...wherever you were.

From that perspective, certain otherwise-good settings start to not be as interesting. Greyhawk, from an outsider's perspective, seems primarily different in tone from FR. That's not something that comes across well under those conditions. Eberron and Althas are too closed off. Nentir Vale (the original un-setting) is great for extended campaigns (my setting started as a NV ripoff), but doesn't catch my attention for a drop-in adventure.

I'm guessing something related to Planescape or Spelljammer. Or something out of left field entirely. Planescape and Eberron both seem attention-grabbing, and both seem visually distinct.

IMHO, Planescape seems most likely.


I admit, while Greyhawk was the part of my first encounter with D&D, I'm not very familiar with it (not to the extent I'm familiar with Dragonlance, thanks to the novels, or FR, no thanks to general information osmosis caused by it being pretty much omnipresent anywhere D&D gets mentioned), but I always considered it more of a high fantasy setting, similar to FR.

What you post makes Greyhawk's classification as sword & sorcery setting used in DMG and... some other 5e book... make much more sense. A lot of early Greyhawk stuff was even more S&S, and a lot of that stuff went right over my head until I read up on what distinguishes S&S from high fantasy.

FR seems to consider itself a generic fantasy setting, but it's not, and that's pernicious. FR is very specific and highly opinionated, especially on magic & metaphysics. That's fine for FR in itself, but it's ugly to see that specific opinion forced over all other settings.

Greyhawk is a bit more generic, but it's not really trying to be generic. It's a setting where Mordenkeinen did a thing, and now that's Mordenkeinen's Mighty Thing which you too can use. It's a setting built up on the adventures of PCs just like yours, but now they're either dead or evil and it's your turn to do a thing -- you can get the setting to include Jack's Mighty Thing for future PCs to use.

[War_lord]

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but what's the black obelisks in the adventures thus far? Some are important, some aren't, some are ruined, but they exist in each and every adventure path. Mearls' has been questioned on it and said he can't say anything, so there's something going on there. What do black obelisks have to do with different campaign settings?

Could be Kyuss related maybe? An early AL module had it the Kyuss, the Worm that Walks was imprisoned in a Dark Obelisk, shards of which now cover the multiverse. But I don't know how "canon" AL stuff is to the greater product.

[2D8HP]

Die Drizzt die!?
Against the Drizzt?
Tomb of Drizzt?
Dead Drizzts?


In Search of Drizzt's spleen.

[KorvinStarmast]

In Search of Drizzt's spleen.
Mielikki Mourns


----------------------------------------

Once again, props to RA Salvatore for writing a successful series. That can be tough to do. I enjoyed quite a few of the paperbacks I bought and read. Fast reads. Easy reads.

I guess that at some point, I just had to stop reading because all of the narrative tension was gone, for me. In the first series (Crystal Shard) and in the first Menzo series, at least there was some tension.

[2D8HP]

Mielikki Mourns


----------------------------------------

Once again, props to RA Salvatore for writing a successful series. That can be tough to do. I enjoyed quite a few of the paperbacks I bought and read. Fast reads. Easy reads.

I guess that at some point, I just had to stop reading because all of the narrative tension was gone, for me. In the first series (Crystal Shard) and in the first Menzo series, at least there was some tension.


You're far more patent than I am.

I just read a few pages of Homeland, but I did find the comic book http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/1079978/81415867.jpg more interesting, as it provided details (such as metal bustiers, high boots, and sleeves) that I didn't find in the text, and you just need those details for a full coherent cultural view. :amused:

[War_lord]

I don't get the piling on R.A. Salvatore.

Look, the Drizzt books are cheap action-adventure fantasy genre paperbacks, and the main audience is teens. It's genre fiction aimed at teen nerds who haven't grown into reading more... demanding work yet. It's par for course in that genre and price point, and Dragonlance was doing that for D&D before the Forgotten Realms was even a thing. I'm sure Mr. Salvatore knows exactly the quality of the work he's putting out and who his market is. And the sales numbers don't lie about the effectiveness of staying in his wheelhouse. I respect the guy for making a living off of something cool that probably doesn't require a huge effort on his part.

[Beleriphon]

Could be Kyuss related maybe? An early AL module had it the Kyuss, the Worm that Walks was imprisoned in a Dark Obelisk, shards of which now cover the multiverse. But I don't know how "canon" AL stuff is to the greater product.

I don't think it is, I suspect its probably some kind of homage or inside joke of the designers or some obscure callback they liked. It isn't just the AL stuff as such, its the actual hardback adventure paths that feature the black obelisks.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't get the piling on R.A. Salvatore.

Look, the Drizzt books are cheap action-adventure fantasy genre paperbacks, and the main audience is teens. It's genre fiction aimed at teen nerds who haven't grown into reading more... demanding work yet. It's par for course in that genre and price point, and Dragonlance was doing that for D&D before the Forgotten Realms was even a thing. I'm sure Mr. Salvatore knows exactly the quality of the work he's putting out and who his market is. And the sales numbers don't lie about the effectiveness of staying in his wheelhouse. I respect the guy for making a living off of something cool that probably doesn't require a huge effort on his part.

While I dislike his work, I get your point. My main problem with RAS is adults using his books as a great example of dark elf culture.

I mean, I'll admit it right now, my natural style when writing is pulp. When I'm not intentionally trying to do something else it'll be action heavy, characters are larger than life, and the dialogue won't be realistic. I don't write good literature. And there's nothing wrong with that, for either me or RAS.

Although there's also nothing wrong with me disliking Drizzt as a character. I find him a little too mary sueish, but then again I'm not the target audience.

I'm going to try writing a teen fantasy story at one point, and I'm sure it'll be even worse than Drizzt :smallbiggrin:

[Nifft]

Although there's also nothing wrong with me disliking Drizzt as a character. I find him a little too mary sueish, but then again I'm not the target audience.

I don't know nor do I particularly hate Drizzt.


Question for those who do hate Drizzt: is it the character himself that inspired your hate, or was it your experience with characters in your games who sought to emulate Drizzt?

[2D8HP]

is it the character himself that inspired your hate, or was it your experience with characters in your games who sought to emulate Drizzt?


Mostly 'cause the sidebar on page 24 of the PHB just bugs me for some reason, and when I bought the latest version of the DUNGEON! boardgame for my son Drizzt was a character in it, which wasn't true in the earlier versions of the game.

As to the character in the books?

I read I few pages of Homeland, got bored, put it down, and never picked it up again, but I looked at the comic book versions with more interest and Drizzt kills Vierna Do'Urden, and a Google Image search will tell you why that makes me dislike Drizzt!

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't know nor do I particularly hate Drizzt.


Question for those who do hate Drizzt: is it the character himself that inspired your hate, or was it your experience with characters in your games who sought to emulate Drizzt?

For me it's the character himself, I've thankfully never seen any of the copies.

[JoeJ]

I don't know nor do I particularly hate Drizzt.


Question for those who do hate Drizzt: is it the character himself that inspired your hate, or was it your experience with characters in your games who sought to emulate Drizzt?

It's not Drizzt that I hate. I read the first trilogy and it was okay, just not interesting enough to make me want to read any more. It's Drizzt clones that really bug me. The one good character from an evil race only works (when it does work, that is) if there's only one.

Once can be cool. The second time it's boring. The third one is starting to get annoying. After that, your evil relatives just kill you by DM fiat; roll up a new character.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't get the piling on R.A. Salvatore.

Look, the Drizzt books are cheap action-adventure fantasy genre paperbacks, and the main audience is teens. It's genre fiction aimed at teen nerds who haven't grown into reading more... demanding work yet. It's par for course in that genre and price point, and Dragonlance was doing that for D&D before the Forgotten Realms was even a thing. I'm sure Mr. Salvatore knows exactly the quality of the work he's putting out and who his market is. And the sales numbers don't lie about the effectiveness of staying in his wheelhouse. I respect the guy for making a living off of something cool that probably doesn't require a huge effort on his part.

IIRC, Salvatore originally wanted to only write the first trilogy and be done with it.

Then the publisher pushed him to continue with the character.

[Telwar]

I don't know nor do I particularly hate Drizzt.


Question for those who do hate Drizzt: is it the character himself that inspired your hate, or was it your experience with characters in your games who sought to emulate Drizzt?

I don't actually hate Drizzt. It's the sanctimonious philosophy in between chapters that I hate.

"WTF are you reading him then?"

The books with the other characters, Artemis and Jarlaxle especially, are actually pretty good.

[Corsair14]

Not to push the setting topic further away, but I know I have read that Salvatore has mentioned at this point he really doesn't like writing about Drizzt. He enjoyed the early years when he was a roguish treasure hunter and happy go lucky monster killer and then the later more developed origin trilogy when he essentially rebooted the character into the more mature dour character. But Wizards keeps throwing money at him and he still has time to work on his own lines of novels which are pretty good, so he will keep writing Drizzt into the ground until they quit tossing money in large quantities at him.

Theres enough quality Dark Sun 5e conversion material out there that you can run a campaign fairly easily barring the Psionic issue, which is fine with me since I was never a fan of psionics. It does take some creative work to transfer critters from that setting over without Psi abilities. I need to reread the Complete Psionics handbook and see how much real crossover work would be needed, I have it on a disc somewhere I think. However, I would not be opposed to a true 5e Psionics book which would open the door completely to Dark Sun.

[Naanomi]

That's a good point. I think the key differences in these classic fantasy settings are in the fundamental assumptions of the settings. In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people. In Nentir Vale, the kingdoms of good and decent people have fallen, and you're just trying to keep the remnants alive. In Mystara, there is treasure out there!
“What are these ‘good kingdoms’ and ‘decent people’ you are talking about... there are just Evil people, worse people, ancient Evils... but the world itself will kill you before you have to worry about them” - Darksun

[mgshamster]

For me, it's not Drizzt that I don't like. It's RAS.

Every person I know who has met him personally says he's an *******, especially to women. Now, all the people I know who've met him did so back in the 90s. It's quite likely he's changed since then.

But even before I knew that, I didn't like his writing style. His character ters are flat/one-dimensional. They often do things that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

For example, the most recent book I read, The Archmage (the prelude to Out of the Abyss), has dwarven Kings give up their rights to the throne in order to march to battle. That makes no sense - why do they have to give up their kingly position to wage war? It's never explained in the book.

Since this is book 1 in a series and set up as an intro novel to OotA, why are the characters not described or explained who they are or their relationships to each other? It requires me to have read other series to now anything about the character. I would understand this if I picked up book 8 in a series or something like that, but not Book 1. And especially not when it's set up to explain events leading up to a Campaign Book.

As for Drizzt himself or any Drizzt clones? I don't have a problem with that. Want to play a Drizzt clone in my games? Go right ahead. I've had players do that because RAS was their introduction to D&D. I want my players to enjoy themselves. Hell, I'll run a game made up entirely of a Drizzt clone party, if my players want to play that.

[Tawmis]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Dragonlance.

+1 for that Dragonlance.

[Envyus]

For example, the most recent book I read, The Archmage (the prelude to Out of the Abyss), has dwarven Kings give up their rights to the throne in order to march to battle. That makes no sense - why do they have to give up their kingly position to wage war? It's never explained in the book.

They are not marching to battle, they are marching to an ancient and abandoned Dwarf City currently owned by Drow. They have no real need to take this city back and they are going to need to stay at the new city in order to run it. As a result the Dwarven Kings who are going more or less are abdicating their thrones so they can restore and run a new kingdom as they are permanently leaving their old ones. (Plus two of the three kings going die in the attempt to retake it.)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't get the piling on R.A. Salvatore.

Look, the Drizzt books are cheap action-adventure fantasy genre paperbacks, and the main audience is teens. It's genre fiction aimed at teen nerds who haven't grown into reading more... demanding work yet. It's par for course in that genre and price point, and Dragonlance was doing that for D&D before the Forgotten Realms was even a thing. I'm sure Mr. Salvatore knows exactly the quality of the work he's putting out and who his market is. And the sales numbers don't lie about the effectiveness of staying in his wheelhouse. I respect the guy for making a living off of something cool that probably doesn't require a huge effort on his part.

My problem with it isn't Salvatore or his novels; it's the WotC accommodation of those novelizations in the setting itself. There's no reason that one of Salvatore's pet NPCs ought to kick off the second half of Out of the Abyss; there's no reason that 'famous NPCs' should get cameos in library; there's no reason for a host of referential cameos in that adventure, except that Salvatore is a story consultant.

That's my biggest objection to FR. There's a huge time skip and two major cataclysms and that one drow house that got destroyed in one of Salvatore's early books is still producing important NPCs.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's my biggest objection to FR. There's a huge time skip and two major cataclysms and that one drow house that got destroyed in one of Salvatore's early books is still producing important NPCs.

My objection to FR (having played through a tiny piece of one module and read lots of books) is the names. It's becoming a running joke in our group, how bad the names of places and NPCs are.

There are people who like cameos, as long as they're just cameos. I personally don't care that much. I'm not too fond of Salvatore's style, or Ed Greenwood's worldbuilding (which underlies the whole setting). But I understand the draw.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

My objection to FR (having played through a tiny piece of one module and read lots of books) is the names. It's becoming a running joke in our group, how bad the names of places and NPCs are.

There are people who like cameos, as long as they're just cameos. I personally don't care that much. I'm not too fond of Salvatore's style, or Ed Greenwood's worldbuilding (which underlies the whole setting). But I understand the draw.

There's an appreciable difference between cameos for Drizzt or Breunor, who are flagship characters from twenty novels spread over three decades, and like Vizerian DeVir. There's no reason for that character, who is important in Out of the Abyss and tied in with the general evil elemental cults that appear in Princes of the Apocalypse and Storm King's Thunder, to be a little Salvatore in-reference. It's especially annoying because Mr DeVir is the last lone male wizard survivor of House DeVir; the book that introduces and disposes of House DeVir is about Drizzt's conflict with a different last lone male wizard survivor of House DeVir.

I just don't understand the constituency for these little cameos for Salvatore trivia, especially when Out of the Abyss itself cautions DMs against over-referencing because it could have negative consequences for the game.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There's an appreciable difference between cameos for Drizzt or Breunor, who are flagship characters from twenty novels spread over three decades, and like Vizerian DeVir. There's no reason for that character, who is important in Out of the Abyss and tied in with the general evil elemental cults that appear in Princes of the Apocalypse and Storm King's Thunder, to be a little Salvatore in-reference. It's especially annoying because Mr DeVir is the last lone male wizard survivor of House DeVir; the book that introduces and disposes of House DeVir is about Drizzt's conflict with a different last lone male wizard survivor of House DeVir.

I just don't understand the constituency for these little cameos for Salvatore trivia, especially when Out of the Abyss itself cautions DMs against over-referencing because it could have negative consequences for the game.

Having never played those modules (or read those particular books), I can only shrug.

I can understand re-using NPCs from modules to other modules, especially if you want to present them as an ongoing set of connected elements instead of completely separate things. If you don't, you can end up with throw-away NPCs that no one cares about or overloading the players with NPCs. I'd guess that the re-use of that same trope is just laziness, however.

I don't use established settings for my own games, so...

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Having never played those modules (or read those particular books), I can only shrug.

I can understand re-using NPCs from modules to other modules, especially if you want to present them as an ongoing set of connected elements instead of completely separate things. If you don't, you can end up with throw-away NPCs that no one cares about or overloading the players with NPCs. I'd guess that the re-use of that same trope is just laziness, however.

I don't use established settings for my own games, so...

I usually don't use established stuff either, but my players are enjoying playing some of the modules, and keeping everything within the same set of assumptions is helping two of my players, who are new DMs running campaigns for other groups, evaluate their own decisions.

[mgshamster]

They are not marching to battle, they are marching to an ancient and abandoned Dwarf City currently owned by Drow. They have no real need to take this city back and they are going to need to stay at the new city in order to run it. As a result the Dwarven Kings who are going more or less are abdicating their thrones so they can restore and run a new kingdom as they are permanently leaving their old ones. (Plus two of the three kings going die in the attempt to retake it.)

So they relinquished their titles and lands to march with an army with the intent of taking a city currently owned by one of the most powerful drow houses, but they're not marching for battle? What did they plan on doing? Ask politely for the drow to leave?

But I'll take your word for it - having them not marching for battle certainly explains why, during the multiple month march to Gauntlgrym, they didn't once talk tactics or make any sort of plan whatsoever.

Seriously, it wasn't until they arrived at Gauntlgrym that they finally asked, "So what do we do?" No one had a plan, no one had any logistics lines, no one sent scouts ahead, nothing. Nada. Zilch. About the only Intel they had was Bruenor himself having discovered it's existence and the discovery that the drow occupied it.

If they weren't marching for war, then I guess it explains why they were so ill prepared upon arrival. Hell, not only were they unprepared, they were surprised to learn that it could take years to win a war against one of the most powerful drow houses. Who marches for months on end without getting that information before hand? Especially when they haven't held Gauntlgrym for a thousand years - it's not like the city is going anywhere. Getting intelligence briefings and gathering info on your enemies is a key part in winning back an an entire city.

Which I guess also makes sense why they had to relinquish their titles - they weren't suited to be Kings with that lack of planning and organization.

(Or, alternatively, RAS is a crap writer)

[Nifft]

Vizerian DeVir. There's no reason for that character, who is important in Out of the Abyss and tied in with the general evil elemental cults that appear in Princes of the Apocalypse and Storm King's Thunder, to be a little Salvatore in-reference. It's especially annoying because Mr DeVir is the last lone male wizard survivor of House DeVir; the book that introduces and disposes of House DeVir is about Drizzt's conflict with a different last lone male wizard survivor of House DeVir. Huh, I'd thought the DeVir family was a reference from the Baldur's Gate video game series.

I guess that the BG inclusion was a Drizzt reference -- which shouldn't be a shock, since Drizzt was in two of the games. Meh, still don't hate the character.


I just don't understand the constituency for these little cameos for Salvatore trivia, especially when Out of the Abyss itself cautions DMs against over-referencing because it could have negative consequences for the game.

Yeah that's a bit obnoxious.

"Don't do what we're doing, it's indulgent and bad for the game."

[mgshamster]

Huh, I'd thought the DeVir family was a reference from the Baldur's Gate video game series.

I guess that the BG inclusion was a Drizzt reference -- which shouldn't be a shock, since Drizzt was in two of the games. Meh, still don't hate the character.



Yeah that's a bit obnoxious.

"Don't do what we're doing, it's indulgent and bad for the game."

In the section talking about DeVir, they mention his connection to the PotA campaign. However, it doesn't actually come up in play. It's like a little tidbit for the DM, but not for the Players.

I actually used that connect to the Elder Evil in my game, as I had DeVir offer them an alliance with his God. He lied to them, of course, but he managed to convince them all to give promises in exchange for power.

Mechanically, what it meant was that they gained protection from a custom Nightmare mechanic I used to curb on the long rest issue with only 1-2 encounters per day, and it also gave them a free level in Warlock with every level they gained (so near end game they were gaining two levels at once).

Story wise, I had meant to continue to campaign past level 20 and send them on a planar Adventure where they had to free that same god from a planar prison, and only afterwards they would realize they'd been tricked and he was actually extremely evil. And then they'd go on a campaign to stop him. But unfortunately that never happened because our gaming group fell apart due to real life getting in the way (one player started doing musicals on stage, another got a job that conflicted, and I got a new house that made the drive further for everyone).

[BloodOgre]

Anyone notice that the two new books coming out in September and October are "Waterdeep Dragon Heist" for 1-5th lvl and "Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage" for 5-10th lvl and details 23 levels of UnderMountain? Are these the two "new" settings?

Amazon is taking pre-orders:

https://www.amazon.com/Waterdeep-Dragon-Heist-HC-Adventure/dp/0786966254

https://www.amazon.com/Waterdeep-Dungeon-Mad-Mage-Adventure/dp/0786966262

[JackPhoenix]

Anyone notice that the two new books coming out in September and October are "Waterdeep Dragon Heist" for 1-5th lvl and "Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage" for 5-10th lvl and details 23 levels of UnderMountain? Are these the two "new" settings?

Amazon is taking pre-orders:

https://www.amazon.com/Waterdeep-Dragon-Heist-HC-Adventure/dp/0786966254

https://www.amazon.com/Waterdeep-Dungeon-Mad-Mage-Adventure/dp/0786966262

No. Waterdeep is in FR.