some questions about power creation rules

[zlefin]

I'm using the d20herosrd (which corresponds to mutants and masterminds 3 if I understand things right).

question 1:
is there a limit to the amount of points that can be spent on a power? I know there's a limit to the rank of effects, and a few other limits spelled out to make sure people aren't too invicible; but it seems like if you apply a lot of modifiers to a power, you could get the per rank cost up very high; like to 10 per rank or even higher.

question 2:
if using an area effect how does that interact with cover, in particular total cover? the text says it simply fills the designated area; will that filling happen even if there's solid barriers in the way? as an example say the power affects a 120 foot radius; and the user is inside a 20 x 20 x 20 building. would it still affect the areas outside the building?
if not, is there some other modifier you can apply to the power that lets it ignore normal barriers like walls and just affect everything in the area? (subject to dodge and such of course)

I saw indirect; but that seems to imply that there's still a single point of origin which someone could have cover relative to; rather than letting the power fully suffuse the area regardless of regular barriers.

[JustIgnoreMe]

1) Nope, make it as expensive as you like.

2) Can't remember if M&M 3E has different types of AoE, but Indirect has 4 versions IIRC: version 4 can come from any point I think. (The explanation of Indirect is much clearer in Champions 4E, and I tend to lift it from there, so I may be misremembering)

[Beleriphon]

On point limits to powers: Nope, feel free to spend all of your points on a single power. Not recommended, but certainly possible.

On Indirect. Its a bit confusing.

Normally a power effect originates from the character and goes out in some capacity (eye lasers, guns, flame throwers, acid flower spray, throwing a magic hammer). Indirect modifiers the origin, the direction or both.

Indirect 1: the effect originates from a fixed point away from you. Example: You open a portal to the realm of LASERS! fifteen feet in to your right. So the effect always starts 15 feet to your right and goes away from you as normal (so basically allows you have a gap between your character the origin point of the effect, but still follows normal rules).

Indirect 2: the effect can come from any point away from you or a fixed point in a fixed direction (not away from you). The effect starts anywhere within 15 feet of you and goes out as normal, or it always comes out 15 to your right and pick the direct (except away from you, since that's Indirect 1).

Indirect 3: The effect can come from any point in a fixed direction (not away from you) or a fixed point in any direction. This is the lightning bolt from the sky option.

Indirect 4: The effect can originate from any point and aim in any direction, including towards you (hitting a target in front of you from behind, for example). You can make your effect start wherever you want go in whatever direction you choose.

On Cover vs Area of effects, total cover provides completely coverage to the character behind. Area effects are cover a complete area, but ignore the zone behind the cover. So when Flamo the Flamethrower drops a burst area damage effect in front of the invisible wall that Transparental the Transparent Man has put up with Create the AOE effective ignores the area behind the wall.

As for a 120-foot burst area in a 20-foot per side cube? It fills the cube, but that's it.

[zlefin]

indirect doesn't seem to get what I want; since it still requires the power to have a single, distinct point of origin from which cover would be measured.

I guess there's no way to get the power to work as I envision it; or at least no clear RAW way.

[Beleriphon]

indirect doesn't seem to get what I want; since it still requires the power to have a single, distinct point of origin from which cover would be measured.

I guess there's no way to get the power to work as I envision it; or at least no clear RAW way.

What exactly do you want it to do? Because there's a few AOEs that work for odd shapes and sizes, like Shapeable which lets you make it any shape you want as long as all the part are touching.

[Grod_The_Giant]

indirect doesn't seem to get what I want; since it still requires the power to have a single, distinct point of origin from which cover would be measured.

I guess there's no way to get the power to work as I envision it; or at least no clear RAW way.
<Cracks knuckles>

Insubstantial 4, Attack, Increased Range, Area, Affects Only Others, Affects Only Objects, Limited (Only lasts for the duration of the explosion), Indirect 4 (28pts), all linked to your normal explode-y bit (plus Indirect). Your power goes off, solid objects become untouchable ghosts ("Objects do not get resistance checks; the effect works on the targeted object at its maximum degree of success"), explosion rolls through the now-empty space unhindered, and then everything returns to normal. People have gone boom, while the scenery is totally untouched.

You could also maybe do something with Movement (Dimensional Travel) and the Dimension modifier to step into the "astral plane" or something before shooting, but that's a lot more up to DM fiat.

[zlefin]

What exactly do you want it to do? Because there's a few AOEs that work for odd shapes and sizes, like Shapeable which lets you make it any shape you want as long as all the part are touching.

as I said in the OP I want it to ignore normal barriers like walls and stuff. parts of it shoudln't need to touch. it's supposed to just fill/affect the entire area.

[JustIgnoreMe]

... Whelp, that's... certainly a power, Grod :)

I was going to mention Precise Attack to ignore cover: not sure how that interacts with AoE. Shapeable is another way to get around cover. Regular "Total Cover" is only a -5 to hit.

If you want to hit someone on the other side of a wall... I'm sure there's a way. Maybe I should dig out Power Profiles.

[Beleriphon]

as I said in the OP I want it to ignore normal barriers like walls and stuff. parts of it shoudln't need to touch. it's supposed to just fill/affect the entire area.

I was more thinking that Shapeable lets you make it take whatever shape you like, including making it come out of windows, or around walls. Although Grod's solution certain works.

[zlefin]

regular total cover doesn't mean actual total cover though; it just means mostly total cover. actual total cover is a complete block.

grod's idea might work; not sure. It'd get through one layer of wall for sure; but it might not get through multiple layers, as at the time of the casting any layer past the first would have total cover relative to the effect.

shapeable wouldn't work because it won't bypass a complete barrier (like an enclosed building).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Throw on Contagious? You might also do something with Perception-range and Penetrates Concealment senses; I've never been entirely clear how Perception-Range and Area interact...

(Edit: some sort of Contagious power instead of Area might work better... Contagious Perception-Area Attack Senses 4 (Penetrates Concealment), Limited to 30ft from original target, linked to your damage...)

[JustIgnoreMe]

Really, I think an Indirect 4 AoE would do it (maybe with Perception Range and a Perception that ignores cover). You can't claim any sort of cover from an attack that can come from anywhere and aim towards anywhere.

[zlefin]

Really, I think an Indirect 4 AoE would do it (maybe with Perception Range and a Perception that ignores cover). You can't claim any sort of cover from an attack that can come from anywhere and aim towards anywhere.


indirect 4 aoe on its own doesn't do it; it can bypass the cover for ONE person; but it wouldn't bypass the cover for everyone in the area. It lets you pick any point of origin, but you still have to pick only ONE point of origination from which the effect will be measured.

perception range and a perception that ignores cover [not clear RAW which ones would] would work for some things; sadly it doesn't work for the things I'm trying.

thanks for the help everyone! we can wrap it up now, I think we've covered what can be covered as well as it'll get.

[Beleriphon]

Throw on Contagious? You might also do something with Perception-range and Penetrates Concealment senses; I've never been entirely clear how Perception-Range and Area interact...

(Edit: some sort of Contagious power instead of Area might work better... Contagious Perception-Area Attack Senses 4 (Penetrates Concealment), Limited to 30ft from original target, linked to your damage...)

From what I understand Perception Range is one of two effects: You can be perceived an anybody that can see/hear/smell/whatever is affected or you can drop an area of effect anywhere you can perceive. Super nasty with remote sensing, its like dropping a grenade in a bunker from halfway around the world, but then I hate a bathroom mentalist.

[tensai_oni]

By the way OP - I know your question was answered already, so here's a question of my own.

Are you trying to create some kind of very expensive but very powerful explosion-like effect that will aoe all targets in a huge area, cover/line of sight/etc be damned?

Because if you are, don't. The #1 rule any Mutants and Masterminds player has to remember, just because something is legal by RAW doesn't mean it's allowed in a game. The GM has the right to veto any power and unless you're playing DBZ or something similarly high power, "attack everyone in the building/city/on the planet" shenanigans won't fly. Okay, maybe as a one time stunt but as a regular power it just screws with encounters too much.

Plus, if you pour all your points into one power, you won't be able to contribute anything when your one trick becomes useless for any reason.

[Anonymouswizard]

As a sidenote, I have had the idea on making a character with an array of Indirect 4 powers called Drone Network. The idea being the character is a technologist, but unlike your standard wearer of power armour just has a ton of miniature drones he can network together that fire lasers/create shields/explode violently.

On Massive Powerful explosions that ignore cover, the first is easy. Just stack Area until you get to the desired volume (yes, with enough PP you can attack everything on the planet with one attack). Powerful can't be higher rank than your Power Level, because we're using an area effect. Ignoring cover has been covered, it's expensive and not definitively possible.

[Grod_The_Giant]

By the way OP - I know your question was answered already, so here's a question of my own.

Are you trying to create some kind of very expensive but very powerful explosion-like effect that will aoe all targets in a huge area, cover/line of sight/etc be damned?

Because if you are, don't. The #1 rule any Mutants and Masterminds player has to remember, just because something is legal by RAW doesn't mean it's allowed in a game. The GM has the right to veto any power and unless you're playing DBZ or something similarly high power, "attack everyone in the building/city/on the planet" shenanigans won't fly. Okay, maybe as a one time stunt but as a regular power it just screws with encounters too much.

Plus, if you pour all your points into one power, you won't be able to contribute anything when your one trick becomes useless for any reason.
Alternately, your GM may well rule (as I certainly would) that if you drop a Damage 10 explosion in the middle of (say) a house, thin wooden walls aren't going to provide cover against an artillery-shell sized explosion-- they're getting blown up along with everything else in the radius.


As a sidenote, I have had the idea on making a character with an array of Indirect 4 powers called Drone Network. The idea being the character is a technologist, but unlike your standard wearer of power armour just has a ton of miniature drones he can network together that fire lasers/create shields/explode violently.
Sort of Mr. Terrific-y?