Dnd 3.5 determining cost of hiring an npc

[finaldooms]

Hiya folks ..so ive been playing dnd a while now but ive never had someone hire or have i hired an npc for help
According to goods and services a skilled npc is 3sp a day ( ex a lvl 1 warrior) now not counting say hazard pay that sounds fine..

What if i needed a tracker? Or a ranger for tracking works as well .. The reason im asking is im currently in agame now where the party is lvl 1 and has no tra king abilties ( barbarian,beguiler,war cleric, rogue,wizard) and we need to follow a trail to a hideout

So we found an npc ranger ( i asked the dm and said ranget is lvl 3) who is wanting 12gp/day ( yikes at lvl 1) to help us just track..we dont expect or even want him to fight for us ..does that sound fair? If so why? And if not can you say why?
And if anyone can point out how to figure out the price of this that would be cool

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Arms & Equipment Guide suggests, in the section on mercenaries, that PC class mercs charge 1gp/ day/ level of the NPC. That's the cost for one that engages in combat and/or leads lesser mercs into battle.

12gp a day is -way- more than is appropriate for a non-combat hireling unless the ranger is in the late teens by level. The one you found should be asking for more like 1.5~2.25gp a day.

[theblasblas]

I honestly think that 1gp/level is a bit too low, as that would mean hiring a 10th level fighter would be 10 gp/day which would be chump change for a level 5 party. I would suggest 1gp*levelsquared.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I honestly think that 1gp/level is a bit too low, as that would mean hiring a 10th level fighter would be 10 gp/day which would be chump change for a level 5 party. I would suggest 1gp*levelsquared.

I would expect the contract to cover a specific, relatively short job. If that job is a dungeon delve, I'd also expect it to include a clause about the merc and/or his company getting a share.

Incidentally, the same guidelines that give the 1gp/day/lvl guideline also say that price is for relatively low-risk combat jobs; CR ≤ level of the merc /his men. Save the city/kingdom/world stuff would cost a premium if it's not outright refused.

In any case; low, guaranteed pay can be more attractive than taking a chance for maybe getting a big pay day. If the adventure turns up chump-change, you still get your hundred+ gold.

[theblasblas]

Hmmm, perhaps giving them a share of the loot could work, but I think few if any mercs would be willing to work non-combat jobs that don't turn up loot like tracking if the pay isn't very good. Though a low level PC class like the 3rd level Ranger described in the first post would probably be willing to work for lower pay.

A Level 10 PC class would be capable of easily dispatching a CR 3 threat so that there's basically no risk, and CR 3 enemies give loot worth around 900-1000 gp. Unless lootable enemies are incredibly rare in that world, I'd see little reason as to why the mercs aren't just going around dispatching low level threats for loot to sell.

[Seerow]

I would expect the contract to cover a specific, relatively short job. If that job is a dungeon delve, I'd also expect it to include a clause about the merc and/or his company getting a share.

Incidentally, the same guidelines that give the 1gp/day/lvl guideline also say that price is for relatively low-risk combat jobs; CR ≤ level of the merc /his men. Save the city/kingdom/world stuff would cost a premium if it's not outright refused.

In any case; low, guaranteed pay can be more attractive than taking a chance for maybe getting a big pay day. If the adventure turns up chump-change, you still get your hundred+ gold.

40gp to hire a level 10 party to clear out a level 5 dungeon, which should easily be done in a day with no real risk to the level 10 characters?

Yeah, it's way too low, and basically forces the DM to step in with stuff like "No NPCs of that level are not just hanging out waiting for your offer".

I agree with the earlier post that level squared is more appropriate, but even then it's shockingly low. I'd probably go to some % of NPC wealth by level. Say 5%. Level 20 Wizard isn't getting out of bed in the morning for less than 10k gold unless there's a really good reason for it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmmm, perhaps giving them a share of the loot could work, but I think few if any mercs would be willing to work non-combat jobs that don't turn up loot like tracking if the pay isn't very good. Though a low level PC class like the 3rd level Ranger described in the first post would probably be willing to work for lower pay.

"Good" pay is relative. 3gp is what a stable hand earns in a season. The ranger handling some relatively minor fighting for a day for that much isn't unreasonable.


A Level 10 PC class would be capable of easily dispatching a CR 3 threat so that there's basically no risk, and CR 3 enemies give loot worth around 900-1000 gp. Unless lootable enemies are incredibly rare in that world, I'd see little reason as to why the mercs aren't just going around dispatching low level threats for loot to sell.

I'm sure some do. There are -far- more low-level threats than there are PC class people though.

[EnnPeeCee]

The cost for hiring an NPC should probably take into account both the NPC's level as well as the challenge level of the tasks they're being hired to do. Similar to the pricing for spellcasting services, which the price scales with both the level of the spell and the level of the spellcaster.

Just eyeballing the numbers, what about 2gp/day/level/CR?
Hire a level 1 NPC to do CR1 tasks, 2gp/day.
Hire a level 10 NPC to go into a CR5 dungeon, 100gp/day.
Hire a level 20 NPC to combat a CR20 threat, 800gp/day.
Maybe too low still for the high level stuff.

[ericgrau]

I agree with the earlier post that level squared is more appropriate, but even then it's shockingly low. I'd probably go to some % of NPC wealth by level. Say 5%. Level 20 Wizard isn't getting out of bed in the morning for less than 10k gold unless there's a really good reason for it.

WBL is already roughly by level squared. It just needs a higher multiplier. And even then we must stress low risk. Something like bodyguard duty and no foe necessarily expected. And if a foe does show up, the merc keeps the loot.

A low CR dungeon might be refused simply because you have no way of telling the CR except by saying "It must be appropriate to our level." Too meta. And if it's obviously a trivial challenge even without meta, then we should price it outside of the budget of low level characters. So... that should help us figure out a multiplier.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think you guys are seriously underestimating the cost here. The price is per day. How many days did your last adventure take? Bet it's more than one. Bet it's a lot more than one.

My group is currently playing in Eberron. The travel time alone mean weeks of pay unless you're just going to hope there's suitable mercs at the destination.

[ericgrau]

While partly true, a teleport is 450 gp.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While partly true, a teleport is 450 gp.

In a sufficiently large settlement for a 9th level caster; small city or better by the DMG guidelines.

[Crake]

The most recent published numbers on hiring workers is in the DMG2, which lists hiring an "adventurer" (that is, an NPC with the elite array and PC class levels) is equal to their level squared per day, with an additional premium based on their level bracket: 500gp for level 6 and above, 1000gp for level 11 and above, and 2000gp for level 16 and above. That is in addition to a half share of the loot.

If, however, the adventurer being hired is higher level than the party, they charge 10x that, and demand a full share of the loot. Suddenly, hiring a level 10 adventurer, costing you 1000gp per day, with a 5000gp premium, to clear out your level 5 dungeon, probably not gonna pay itself off.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

While partly true, a teleport is 450 gp.

Not in every game.

You need to find a spellcaster, after that you need to convince him to help you in the middle of his day and you need to wait a day for him to prepare the spell.

And you need the DM to be ok with you skipping all the encounters and stories he made for the way.

[ericgrau]

Well if you're looking for 10th level npcs's anyway...

And clerics also have travel spells, though they're not as instant. Heck, get phantom steeds and put 2 riders on each.

And while the last place you visited might be far, the nearest major city often isn't 2 weeks away from your adventure. And sometimes it's right next to it. So... suddenly all challenges next to a city are trivial? So we keep all that in mind when pricing. It's not necessarily 1 day, but usually it isn't 2 weeks either. Maybe 2-5+. And/or safe travel and more serious guard duty have different rates.

The other common explanation is as an adventurer you ARE the hired person. If someone else had time to deal with it for a more affordable rate, they would have skipped you and gone straight to them. And then your real adventure would be somewhere else.

[finaldooms]

After a but of arguing me and the DM decided on 3gp/day for said tracker since we just wanted him to follow the trail for us..DM had me roleplay it out which was fine and i ended up rolling a max intimidate while using rage to get the cost reduced to that much ..so from 12gp to 3gp and a rp reason worked fairly well

[Crake]

After a but of arguing me and the DM decided on 3gp/day for said tracker since we just wanted him to follow the trail for us..DM had me roleplay it out which was fine and i ended up rolling a max intimidate while using rage to get the cost reduced to that much ..so from 12gp to 3gp and a rp reason worked fairly well

If he's literally just tracking for you, then he's less of an adventurer hireling, and more of a specialist hireling, which just so happens to cost 3gp/day for a 3rd level character, so fits perfectly :smalltongue:

[King of Nowhere]

I remember reading the same passage and it was 1gp*day*level squared. So, a 3rd level ranger should be 9 gp/day, and 12 is reasonably close.

the number is reasonable for low and mid levels. 400 gp for a day of a 20th level wizard seems way too low, but that is better just eyeballed. the numbers quoted by crake seem instead excessively punitive; yeah, I get it, you are supposed to be the hero and not to hire others to do the job, but what the hell? if you want to play that game, so be it. it was fairly reasonable anyway until the "price decuplicated for no real reason" part.

However, guiddelines aside, I think the pay is better eyeballed depending on the specific situation, including the local economy. Maybe the guy has good money and other things to do and so he'll ask for more. Maybe the whole place is poor and everyone is willing to work for lower prices than listed. Maybe he's out of job, or maybe he has another bidder for his time? How many other people could provide the same service? Maybe there's a 2nd level ranger that is willing to do the same job almost as well but for half the price, and that could push the first guy to lower his fee a bit? a real economy depends on a lot of factors, especially when it comes to atypical jobs before labor unions and standardized contracts. Your DM has a lot of wiggle room to justify a diversity of prices.

[Crake]

I remember reading the same passage and it was 1gp*day*level squared. So, a 3rd level ranger should be 9 gp/day, and 12 is reasonably close.

the number is reasonable for low and mid levels. 400 gp for a day of a 20th level wizard seems way too low, but that is better just eyeballed. the numbers quoted by crake seem instead excessively punitive; yeah, I get it, you are supposed to be the hero and not to hire others to do the job, but what the hell? if you want to play that game, so be it. it was fairly reasonable anyway until the "price decuplicated for no real reason" part.

However, guiddelines aside, I think the pay is better eyeballed depending on the specific situation, including the local economy. Maybe the guy has good money and other things to do and so he'll ask for more. Maybe the whole place is poor and everyone is willing to work for lower prices than listed. Maybe he's out of job, or maybe he has another bidder for his time? How many other people could provide the same service? Maybe there's a 2nd level ranger that is willing to do the same job almost as well but for half the price, and that could push the first guy to lower his fee a bit? a real economy depends on a lot of factors, especially when it comes to atypical jobs before labor unions and standardized contracts. Your DM has a lot of wiggle room to justify a diversity of prices.

Is 2,400gp per day for a 20th level wizard that far fetched?

Considering just a single 1st level spell from that wizard is 200gp, a 9th level spell is 1800gp, and presumably you're getting a fair few of those per day, i'd say it's a bargain at that price. I assume the reason the price is multiplied by 10 if you're not on par with him is because he goes from "helping out" to "carrying the group".

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is 2,400gp per day for a 20th level wizard that far fetched?

Considering just a single 1st level spell from that wizard is 200gp, a 9th level spell is 1800gp, and presumably you're getting a fair few of those per day, i'd say it's a bargain at that price. I assume the reason the price is multiplied by 10 if you're not on par with him is because he goes from "helping out" to "carrying the group".

Unless DMGII changed it, spells are itemized charges -not- included in the retainer fee.

[Crake]

Unless DMGII changed it, spells are itemized charges -not- included in the retainer fee.

The DMG2 rules are basically hiring that character to act as a party member, so unless your party members charge each other to cast spells for each other, I wouldn't imagine they hired wizard would charge on a per-spell basis. He is getting a half share of the loot as a bonus after all.

[King of Nowhere]

Is 2,400gp per day for a 20th level wizard that far fetched?

Considering just a single 1st level spell from that wizard is 200gp, a 9th level spell is 1800gp, and presumably you're getting a fair few of those per day, i'd say it's a bargain at that price. I assume the reason the price is multiplied by 10 if you're not on par with him is because he goes from "helping out" to "carrying the group".

It's the 11000 gp per day to hire an 11th level wizard if you're 10th level that I find far-fetched. And also the price for a single spell cast, it's almost as expensive as getting a scroll - more expensive in many ccases, since with many spells you don't care about caster level too much. Again, that depends a lot. 10 gp for a single 1st level spell by a 1st level wizard seems way too much, something like 1 gp seems more reasonable for it. while 1800 for a 9th level spell seems just right, assuming you can find someone to cast it and he doesn't have anything more important to do with his spell slots.

Let's just say thhat I don't like ANY of the simple formulas and equations. For any of them you can find specific situations where they give ridiculous results. they can be a good guideline to start, but you have to adjust for availability of casters in your campaign world, demand of spells in your campaign world, amount of money in your campaign world, if they have better things to do, if they are just making lots of money with little effort, what's the risk for them, and so on and so forth. I really don't like to fix myself on "the DMG says X, so it's X, period".

[HouseRules]

Casters should be more expensive.

Get an NPC caster to cast a spell for you is (Spell Level x Caster Level x 10 gp).

In the spirit of this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557889-I-ve-had-a-game-balance-thought , if someone house rules that it costs (Spell Level x Caster Level x 5 gp) to cast a spell to balance casters and non-casters, then it makes sense for NPCs to charge on a per spell basis on top of their charge by character level. Nearly everything cost half when you do it yourself right?