Vermin Companions

[Yogibear41]

If I use this http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a variant for druid companions with a planar ranger (using half my ranger level as my druid level of course) and thereby give my mindless vermin the fiendish template giving them an Int of 3, can I get around the caveat that they will not attack oozes and undead?

If not, is there anyway I can get them to attack oozes and undead?

More worried about attacking undead than anything.

I suppose it would help if I actually read the whole article, where it says they get tricks to attack undead and oozes......

Although if they become intelligent, I'm not sure they even need tricks anymore.

[The Viscount]

Very interesting thought. As a magical beast with an int of 3, they can now no longer be handled at all by the skill. Any creature with an int of 3 is sentient, so they should be able to understand spoken commands to do what you ask them. That's an interesting zone of no real rules. Theoretically you could use diplomacy on them, but it's not fair to ask a ranger to use a skill they don't have, so I think it would be fine to just have it understand you. If your DM is really being hard about it, I suppose you could use a dip in Beast Heart Adept to improve their attitude towards you with its Monster Empathy.

[Remuko]

Very interesting thought. As a magical beast with an int of 3, they can now no longer be handled at all by the skill. Any creature with an int of 3 is sentient, so they should be able to understand spoken commands to do what you ask them. That's an interesting zone of no real rules. Theoretically you could use diplomacy on them, but it's not fair to ask a ranger to use a skill they don't have, so I think it would be fine to just have it understand you. If your DM is really being hard about it, I suppose you could use a dip in Beast Heart Adept to improve their attitude towards you with its Monster Empathy.

i mean theyre youre companion not a wild animal so you shouldnt need to diplomance them at all. animals are sentient with only 1 less int than this and they obey commands just fine, i dont see why this fiendish companion would be any different.

[Khedrac]

It is usually a mistake to try to enhance your animal vermin companion except through spells and items...


This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger’s effective druid level is one-half his ranger level.

A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table.

Admittedly it is ambiguous (and I cannot check may actual PHB - I'm at work) but this is commonly read to mean that the only way to improve an animal companion is by the advancement from levelling as a druid/ranger/etc. The Warbeast template occupies a grey area in that is explicitly something achieved by training an animal - so if the masters of animal training cannot use it, something is fundamentally wrong, hence it is often allowed to be added to an animal companion.
However, other templates, especially those that stop the companion from being an animal, are generally held to disqualify the creature form being an animal companion.

As in all things, check with your DM first, but while I would think you have a decent chance of haing warbeat allowed, fiendish should cost you your companion as it no longer qualifies.

[The Viscount]

It is usually a mistake to try to enhance your animal vermin companion except through spells and items...




Admittedly it is ambiguous (and I cannot check may actual PHB - I'm at work) but this is commonly read to mean that the only way to improve an animal companion is by the advancement from levelling as a druid/ranger/etc. The Warbeast template occupies a grey area in that is explicitly something achieved by training an animal - so if the masters of animal training cannot use it, something is fundamentally wrong, hence it is often allowed to be added to an animal companion.
However, other templates, especially those that stop the companion from being an animal, are generally held to disqualify the creature form being an animal companion.

As in all things, check with your DM first, but while I would think you have a decent chance of haing warbeat allowed, fiendish should cost you your companion as it no longer qualifies.

Are you saying that the planar ranger ACF which makes your animal companion fiendish is somehow not allowed? That's an exceptionally punitive hypothetical DM if they won't let you use 1st party ACFs.

[Khedrac]

Are you saying that the planar ranger ACF which makes your animal companion fiendish is somehow not allowed? That's an exceptionally punitive hypothetical DM if they won't let you use 1st party ACFs.

I had missed/forgotten that one - yes in that case it should be allowed but becomes very complex as you now have a moron as a companion (so handle animal stops working and your control over their actions arguably gets worse). Any other method of getting the same template on your animal and it's not an animal companion any more...

In general it comes down to "ask your DM". Personally I would probably allow any template that was picked up in play that had reasonable justification (e.g. casting one of the spells that grants an elemental template). I would be much more loathe to permit any template acquired before the character starts play.