Pugilist Barbarian Build

[Fishyninja]

Greetings one and all.

Quick build question for you all.

I am about to start a new campaign with some Homebrew items (these have all been Ok'ed by the DM) but primarily I want to get your opinions on Multiclassing.

So we will be starting at level 1.
Base build is such:

Point Buy: 15, 10, 14, 10, 12, 12

Race: Dwarf
Sub Race: Frost Dwarf
Racial Bonuses:+1 Str, +2 Con
Iceborn: Resistance to Cold Damage and acclimated to high altitudes
Tunneller:You have a Burrowing Speed equal to your walking speed (25ft)

Class: Pugilist by Coolgamertagbro (https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1494/22/1494225938820.pdf)

Final Stats: 16, 10, 16, 10, 12, 12

So a brief on the pugilist, it is based of the Monk Class but is primarily focused on Str rather than Dex. Also if you would consider the Monk a 'Controller' the Pugilist is a typical 'Glass Cannon', go in do as much damage as possible while trying to stay up. Alot of its abilities (especially around 5th-10th level) are focused on granting Temporary Hit Points and doing Max Damage.

So I was thinking possibly arounf maybe level 5 or 6 (Level 5 gives you Extra Attack, 6 Makes your Fists Magical) I was thinking possibly dipping into Barbarain 2 levels for Rage and Reckless attack, possibly 3 levels to get Bear Totem.

My reasoning is this thus:

Rage is always good
At level 5 the Pugilsit gets the 'Haymaker' Ability' you attack with Disadvantage but if you hit you do max damage so for level 5, assuming I take an ASI in Strength thats 1d8+4 (12) damage per hit and the I can attack twice, and use a bonus action to also attack. So potentially I could attack 3 times possibly doing 36 damage or twice with rage doing 28 damage.
Second level Barbarians get the 'Reckless Attack' feature which allows them to attack with advantage but gives the enemy advantage on you. I was thinking this may be handy to negate the disadvantage given by Haymaker
Bear Totem


So any thoughts or suggestions on this front?

[Quoxis]

Neither the class nor the race seem balanced to me, so i‘m tending towards „it‘s going to be too strong for normal games and probably just ok or normal for homebrew games where your buddies are iron man, merlin, time traveling sonic the hedgehog and a gunslinger/bloodhunter mc“.
Your build mechanically makes sense, a bit of barbarian is never wrong on a class without spellcasting.

[Fishyninja]

Neither the class nor the race seem balanced to me, so i‘m tending towards „it‘s going to be too strong for normal games and probably just ok or normal for homebrew games where your buddies are iron man, merlin, time traveling sonic the hedgehog and a gunslinger/bloodhunter mc“.
Your build mechanically makes sense, a bit of barbarian is never wrong on a class without spellcasting.

Well most of the campaign is homebrewed, there are I think 5 additional Races and the DM has allowed the use of the Class for the moment however he thinks 1d6 dice at level 1 is overpowered, I disagree with him.

[poopyloop]

compare the pugilist to the monk
monks get a d4 at level 1, your average damage is a point per attack, with the same amount of attacks available
compared to other classes, you essentially have the same power as someone dual-wielding while completely unarmed
there's a reason they made the monk's unarmed strikes a d4, so they wouldn't be dishing out the same damage as other classes for free, but they get an opportunity to make an extra attack instead
that said, I like the idea of the class, but to have more power and staying power than a monk seems OP to me. If a player asked to be that class in my game, I would probably want to re-balance it myself.

However, back to your question. I think Barbarian would be a great multi-class for a pugilist. It will help your damage and overall tackiness, something you already excel at. I would say after lv 5, after your extra attack would be a good time to do so

[Fishyninja]

compare the pugilist to the monk
monks get a d4 at level 1, your average damage is a point per attack, with the same amount of attacks available
compared to other classes, you essentially have the same power as someone dual-wielding while completely unarmed
there's a reason they made the monk's unarmed strikes a d4, so they wouldn't be dishing out the same damage as other classes for free, but they get an opportunity to make an extra attack instead
that said, I like the idea of the class, but to have more power and staying power than a monk seems OP to me. If a player asked to be that class in my game, I would probably want to re-balance it myself.

However, back to your question. I think Barbarian would be a great multi-class for a pugilist. It will help your damage and overall tackiness, something you already excel at. I would say after lv 5, after your extra attack would be a good time to do so

Aye I was thinking maybe after level 6 when you get magic fueled strikes.

It is interesting to me, the damage die seems to be the thing that most people say is overpowered about the build. From extensive research (i.e. Reddit trawls) in general for the year or so it has been out many people have said it is relatively balanced in play due to the fact that the build does not have a lot of the 'controller' or survivability options like Slow Fall and Stunning strike. However granted the Pugilist when you take the Sweet Science fight club can prone enemies at level 7 I think.

[Blackbando]

Pugilist mainly suffers from the issue of looking overpowered at a glance, but it's a lot more balanced in actual play. It has higher damage, but is a lot less tanky (surprising considering the fact they can use con for AC) and is much less of a controller.

However, it is definitely overpowered with a barbarian multiclass. Like, ludicrously so.

Edit: Realized I didn't exactly clarify why. It's mainly the Old One-Two combined with raging; you can reliably hit four times per turn with a powerful weapon while still making use of strong weapons like the greataxe and getting rage damage on all, but it's mainly barbarian-centric builds that are this scarily busted. Since this is more pugilist-focused (it seems, at least) it might not be as busted, or maybe it's more so.
But, if your DM is allowing multiclassing with homebrew content, then they should expect this, anyways; as much as I love and support homebrew classes, many of them are not made for multiclassing.

[Fishyninja]

Pugilist mainly suffers from the issue of looking overpowered at a glance, but it's a lot more balanced in actual play. It has higher damage, but is a lot less tanky (surprising considering the fact they can use con for AC) and is much less of a controller.

However, it is definitely overpowered with a barbarian multiclass. Like, ludicrously so.

Edit: Realized I didn't exactly clarify why. It's mainly the Old One-Two combined with raging; you can reliably hit four times per turn with a powerful weapon while still making use of strong weapons like the greataxe and getting rage damage on all, but it's mainly barbarian-centric builds that are this scarily busted. Since this is more pugilist-focused (it seems, at least) it might not be as busted, or maybe it's more so.
But, if your DM is allowing multiclassing with homebrew content, then they should expect this, anyways; as much as I love and support homebrew classes, many of them are not made for multiclassing.

Fair enough. I'm not looking for the 'Ultimate Build' I have playtested a straight Pugilist at level 6 (rolled for stats and was lucky) I know in a one on one fight with decent rolls the Pugilist can go one on one with a fighter in Splint, but at level 1, against many mobs? Who knows. May be better to stick with a straight build.

[Uzgul]

So a brief on the pugilist, it is based of the Monk Class but is primarily focused on Str rather than Dex. Also if you would consider the Monk a 'Controller' the Pugilist is a typical 'Glass Cannon', go in do as much damage as possible while trying to stay up. Alot of its abilities (especially around 5th-10th level) are focused on granting Temporary Hit Points and doing Max Damage.

Let me clarify one thing. The pugilist is not a glass cannon. It is way more tanky than anything in the game. The reason for this is "Brace up" and the regain of moxie points on taking damage. Let's look at Level 6 with two short rests per day. Your Base HP is pretty average at 51 HP, but Brace up allowes for 126 Temp HP. An whenever you take 3 or more damage, you regain another Moxie Point for another 10,5 Temp HP. Combine this with the normal Healing by spending HD and you can expect to absorb around 300 more damage per day than other classes. I played a few rounds with a Pugilist and the amount of damage, he could take was just absurd.



So I was thinking possibly arounf maybe level 5 or 6 (Level 5 gives you Extra Attack, 6 Makes your Fists Magical) I was thinking possibly dipping into Barbarain 2 levels for Rage and Reckless attack, possibly 3 levels to get Bear Totem.

My reasoning is this thus:

Rage is always good
At level 5 the Pugilsit gets the 'Haymaker' Ability' you attack with Disadvantage but if you hit you do max damage so for level 5, assuming I take an ASI in Strength thats 1d8+4 (12) damage per hit and the I can attack twice, and use a bonus action to also attack. So potentially I could attack 3 times possibly doing 36 damage or twice with rage doing 28 damage.
Second level Barbarians get the 'Reckless Attack' feature which allows them to attack with advantage but gives the enemy advantage on you. I was thinking this may be handy to negate the disadvantage given by Haymaker
Bear Totem


So any thoughts or suggestions on this front?
Well, you take an already op class, that was not balanced for multiclassing (no matter what its author claims) and combine it with the most synergistic class for it in the game.
Rage+Reckless attack+Haymaker+Moxie Regeneration means that you will do absurd amounts damage and be hit a lot. And the weakness of Reckless attack is pretty well compensated by the extra Moxie Points as you like to take damage.

So yes, you will be strong. Too strong, if the other players don't take similar broken homebrew stuff.

[Fishyninja]

Let me clarify one thing. The pugilist is not a glass cannon. It is way more tanky than anything in the game. The reason for this is "Brace up" and the regain of moxie points on taking damage. Let's look at Level 6 with two short rests per day. Your Base HP is pretty average at 51 HP, but Brace up allowes for 126 Temp HP. An whenever you take 3 or more damage, you regain another Moxie Point for another 10,5 Temp HP. Combine this with the normal Healing by spending HD and you can expect to absorb around 300 more damage per day than other classes. I played a few rounds with a Pugilist and the amount of damage, he could take was just absurd.


Let me clarify one thing. The pugilist is not a glass cannon. It is way more tanky than anything in the game. The reason for this is "Brace up" and the regain of moxie points on taking damage. Let's look at Level 6 with two short rests per day. Your Base HP is pretty average at 51 HP, but Brace up allowes for 126 Temp HP. An whenever you take 3 or more damage, you regain another Moxie Point for another 10,5 Temp HP. Combine this with the normal Healing by spending HD and you can expect to absorb around 300 more damage per day than other classes. I played a few rounds with a Pugilist and the amount of damage, he could take was just absurd.


At Level 6? Sorry I cannot work out how you are calculating your math here.
At level 6 with Brace Up if I spent all my Moxie Points on it tht's 4 sets of 1d8 (Fisticuffs) + 3 (Proficiency Bonus) + 3 (Con Modifier).

And with Bloodied but Unbowed it is also a once per SR/LR feature which equals 9 THP, (Pugilist Level and Con Modifier) but that only triggers when I go below half health

Thus assuming the averages it would be (4 * (4.5 + 3 + 3) = (4 * 10.5) so 42 THP Per short Rest
If you double that its 84 THP (assuming to short rests) and then add a Bloodied but Unbowed (assuming I only go below half health once) its 95 THP. Even if you use Bloodied but Unbowed Twice its 106THP

Again this is assuming if I use all my Moxie on Brace Up.

I also am not understanding your statement "An whenever you take 3 or more damage, you regain another Moxie Point for another 10,5 Temp HP. I'm just looking at the Class sheet and I cannot find anything that says I regain Moxie if I take 3 points of damage or more at level 6.

The only abilities that I can see that even state regaining Moxie are:

Starting at 18th level, when you have 4 levels of exhaustion or fewer and are reduced to 0 hit points you regain half of your maximum hit points, half of your
maximum moxie points, and gain a level of exhaustion. You cannot use this feature again until you complete a
long rest.
And

At 11th level, when you reduce damage from an attack to 0 and successfully hit an enemy creature using your Cross Counter feature you regain 1 moxie point.

So I am not saying you are wrong I am just confused as to where you are getting your infomation. I am currently on version 1.3 of the PDF that has been released.

[Blackbando]

So I am not saying you are wrong I am just confused as to where you are getting your infomation. I am currently on version 1.3 of the PDF that has been released.

Check the pdf you sent.


When an enemy creature deals damage to you that causes you to lose hit points equal to half your level or higher (not temporary hit points) you gain 1 moxie point, up to your maximum.

[Fishyninja]

Check the pdf you sent.

Conceded. I missed that but its still more than 3 points of damage that was originally stated by Uzgul

EDIT:
Uzgul I would like to apologise, I did not read my own PDF correctly. I have reread it. I get where you are coming from now regarding being damaged and regaining Moxie. Still not sure of your maths (however I am pretty poor at it myself so it is probabaly me not seeing something correctly)
Blackbando, thank you for pointing out my error.

[Fishyninja]

Edit: Realized I didn't exactly clarify why. It's mainly the Old One-Two combined with raging; you can reliably hit four times per turn with a powerful weapon while still making use of strong weapons like the greataxe and getting rage damage on all, but it's mainly barbarian-centric builds that are this scarily busted. Since this is more pugilist-focused (it seems, at least) it might not be as busted, or maybe it's more so.
But, if your DM is allowing multiclassing with homebrew content, then they should expect this, anyways; as much as I love and support homebrew classes, many of them are not made for multiclassing.

Aye as stated my main thoughts for the Barbarian requirement was primarily the Rage and Reckless attack )Possibly Bear totem but we'll see) Like I said I think there is a good synergy between Haymaker and Reckless Attack.