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Crow
2007-09-07, 11:25 AM
Yes, the hero from the poem. Not some character from any video game.

I am trying to determine what Beowulf would look like in 3.5. For that matter Grendel, Grendel's Mother, and the Dragon.

So far I have Beowulf as a human (of course) Fighter of undetermined level. He would definately have Improved Grapple as one of his feats (having elected to fight Grendel without arms), and would be especially skilled with the sword. Showing respect for the beast, Beouwulf chooses to fight Grendel (who shunned weapons) with his hands, because his victory would be certain if he used his sword. Further, there are numerous times when Beowulf wielded swords (Against Grendel's Mother, who had a dagger, and the Dragon, which Beowulf claims he would have fought unarmed if the beast didn't breath fire). As to the type of sword, I would guess a longsword, as this rather generic-sounding weapon actually most closely matches what we know of swords from the time (from the few surviving examples). So we will likely have the full suite of Weapon Focus/Specialization feats for the longsword (dependant on level, which I cannot determine). Probably he would have some Shield-centric feats, based on the importance of the shield at the time. These are optional though. Also, He would wear a chain shirt. Full chainmail as D&D knows it was just not available. Armor (which was rare) would have been somewhere in between a chain shirt and chainmail...I'll err on the lower side.

Abilities will probably need to be quite high. Probably not achievable even with "High-Powered" point buy. Greatest to lowest priority;

1. Strength. -wrestling a crazy beast, lifting a giant's sword, willing to wrestle a dragon (if only it didn't breath fire!) etc...

2. Constitution. -Beowulf was said to have great endurance, The guy swam wearing his mail for heaven's sake. I forgot the distance...he was competing with his brother I think?

3. Dexterity. -This just seems right. Although he was very strong and hardy, and the text supports these, he seems to have been overall athletic (which is different that just strong and hardy). Being an athlete myself, I think this fits.

4. Charisma. -He led a warband, and was famous before meeting Grendel. Then he ended up a king. Something about him made people want to follow him. He had it.

5. Wisdom. -Was said to be a powerful, and wise king. Wise.

6. Intelligence. -While I wouldn't say it's a dump-stat, and he seems to be at least quite intelligent. It never sais he was a smart king. Though to be powerful and wise, a certain degree of intelligence should be involved.

This is all I have so far, so if anybody could help me with suggestions on how to do this, or fixes on anything I have listed, please do.

Indon
2007-09-07, 11:28 AM
He needs the Leadership feat.
Also he should probably have Improved Grapple.
If there is a feat which makes one better with improvised weapons, he may well have that, too.

I'd make him Epic-level, personally.

MrNexx
2007-09-07, 11:34 AM
I'd make him a bit of a variant off the standard fighter.

Dump heavy armor and tower shield proficiency, give him Improved Unarmed and Improved Grapple; the first two don't exist, the second two are cultural traits.

Other than that... yeah. Endurance would be good in there. Leadership. Probably Superior Unarmed Strike.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-07, 11:34 AM
I'd consider making him something like a Goliath, actually. There's a lot there that suits him.

OverdrivePrime
2007-09-07, 11:56 AM
Levels of Human Paragon seem appropriate as well.

Good gravy, I can't wait to see that movie.

Runolfr
2007-09-07, 12:06 PM
So far I have Beowulf as a human (of course) Fighter of undetermined level. He would definately have Improved Grapple as one of his feats (having elected to fight Grendel without arms), and would be especially skilled with the sword. Showing respect for the beast, Beouwulf chooses to fight Grendel (who shunned weapons) with his hands, because his victory would be certain if he used his sword.

I would argue that Beowulf chose to fight Grendel unarmed because he had been informed by the Danes that weapons were useless against Grendel, who could not be harmed by any weapon forged by men. It is actually defeat that would have been almost certain if Beowulf had tried using his sword.


Further, there are numerous times when Beowulf wielded swords (Against Grendel's Mother, who had a dagger, and the Dragon, which Beowulf claims he would have fought unarmed if the beast didn't breath fire). As to the type of sword, I would guess a longsword, as this rather generic-sounding weapon actually most closely matches what we know of swords from the time (from the few surviving examples).

The sword that Beowulf used against Grendel's mother was a blade forged by giants that he found in her lair. Presumably it would be a two-handed weapon by human standards (at least). Nonetheless, Beowulf uses a sword more than any other weapon in his travels, and a Longsword approximates Scandinavian swords of the period pretty well.


So we will likely have the full suite of Weapon Focus/Specialization feats for the longsword (dependant on level, which I cannot determine). Probably he would have some Shield-centric feats, based on the importance of the shield at the time. These are optional though. Also, He would wear a chain shirt. Full chainmail as D&D knows it was just not available. Armor (which was rare) would have been somewhere in between a chain shirt and chainmail...I'll err on the lower side.

Abilities will probably need to be quite high. Probably not achievable even with "High-Powered" point buy. Greatest to lowest priority;

1. Strength. -wrestling a crazy beast, lifting a giant's sword, willing to wrestle a dragon (if only it didn't breath fire!) etc...

Beowulf was also capable of swimming across a sea in armor, and Swim is a Strength-based skill. The guy was just crazy strong: probably 20+.


2. Constitution. -Beowulf was said to have great endurance, The guy swam wearing his mail for heaven's sake. I forgot the distance...he was competing with his brother I think?

I forget who the competitor was, but he should certainly have an obnoxiously high Constitution score.


3. Dexterity. -This just seems right. Although he was very strong and hardy, and the text supports these, he seems to have been overall athletic (which is different that just strong and hardy). Being an athlete myself, I think this fits.

This is probably the least impressive of his physical stats, but still a good score.


4. Charisma. -He led a warband, and was famous before meeting Grendel. Then he ended up a king. Something about him made people want to follow him. He had it.

Totally.


5. Wisdom. -Was said to be a powerful, and wise king. Wise.

As this stat is in no way necessary to his proposed class, it need not be outrageous, but Beowulf is just an all-around capable guy, so it should still be a good score.


6. Intelligence. -While I wouldn't say it's a dump-stat, and he seems to be at least quite intelligent. It never sais he was a smart king. Though to be powerful and wise, a certain degree of intelligence should be involved.

I can agree there, since Beowulf seldom thought is way through a problem. He was a man of action. He's certainly not stupid, but this need not be an exceptional score.

He should probably have maxed-out physical skills, like Swim, Climb, Jump, etc. His level should vary depending on when in his career you want to depict him.

Playing with an online character generator (http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm), I came up with the following for Beowulf early in his career, when he goes to fight Grendel:

Male Human Fighter 8

Strength 20 (+5)
Dexterity 14 (+2)
Constitution 18 (+4)
Intelligence 10 (+0)
Wisdom 13 (+1)
Charisma 14 (+2)

Armor Class: 18 = 10 +4 [chain shirt] +2 [heavy steel] +2 [dexterity]

Feats: Athletic, Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Leadership, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus.

Skills: Climb 18, Handle Animal 4, Jump 11, Ride 5, Swim 18.

Tequila Sunrise
2007-09-07, 12:35 PM
I once statted out Grendel (20th level half black dragon) and his Dam (great wyrm black bloodscaled fury 12). Beowulf could be statted a dozen different ways...barbarian, fighter and warblade most readily come to mind.

As I recall, Beowulf tried using a sword against Grendel (or maybe it was his Dam?), but it just snapped in half because of Beowulf's great strength. Hmm, I don't think D&D has a mechanic for being too strong for your own weapon...:smallbiggrin:

MOD
2007-09-07, 12:46 PM
Have any of you ever read Grendel, by John Gardner? That book always makes me feel sad.

Ruzak
2007-09-07, 01:06 PM
Dragon magazine did an article with stats on Beowulf in issue 329. (March 2005)
I don't actually own this issue, so I don't know what it says.

http://paizo.com/store/magazines/dragon/issues/2005/v5748btpy7yda

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-07, 01:09 PM
Have any of you ever read Grendel, by John Gardner? That book always makes me feel sad.

Yeah. It's a sad story.

Matthew
2007-09-07, 02:08 PM
I would argue that Beowulf chose to fight Grendel unarmed because he had been informed by the Danes that weapons were useless against Grendel, who could not be harmed by any weapon forged by men. It is actually defeat that would have been almost certain if Beowulf had tried using his sword.

I don't think so. If I recall correctly, it was just good luck that he chose to fight Unarmed. His Retainers all use their Swords to no effect during the struggle, but that's just what I recall from the last time I read through it.
[/quote]

Runolfr
2007-09-07, 02:12 PM
As I recall, Beowulf tried using a sword against Grendel (or maybe it was his Dam?), but it just snapped in half because of Beowulf's great strength. Hmm, I don't think D&D has a mechanic for being too strong for your own weapon...:smallbiggrin:

In the epic poem, Beowulf never tried a sword against Grendel; he'd already been informed that it would be useless. He only had a dagger with him when he swam down to the lair of Grendel's mother, and it proved useless. In the lair, though, he found a sword that had been forged by giants, and he cuts her head off with it. Her blood is corrosive, however, and dissolves the blade.

You may be thinking of Siegfried, who could break any ordinary sword given to him. He had to reforge the pieces of the magic sword Balmung into a new sword called Gram to have a weapon that could survive his blows.

Runolfr
2007-09-07, 02:18 PM
I don't think so. If I recall correctly, it was just good luck that he chose to fight Unarmed. His Retainers all use their Swords to no effect during the struggle, but that's just what I recall from the last time I read through it.

So, from thee,
thou sovran of the Shining-Danes,
Scyldings'-bulwark, a boon I seek, --
and, Friend-of-the-folk, refuse it not,
O Warriors'-shield, now I've wandered far, --
that I alone with my liegemen here,
this hardy band, may Heorot purge!
More I hear, that the monster dire,
in his wanton mood, of weapons recks not;
hence shall I scorn -- so Hygelac stay,
king of my kindred, kind to me! --
brand or buckler to bear in the fight,
gold-colored targe: but with gripe alone
must I front the fiend and fight for life,
foe against foe.
-- Beowulf in Hypertext (http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html), Chapter VI

Indon
2007-09-07, 02:18 PM
In the epic poem, Beowulf never tried a sword against Grendel; he'd already been informed that it would be useless. He only had a dagger with him when he swam down to the lair of Grendel's mother, and it proved useless. In the lair, though, he found a sword that had been forged by giants, and he cuts her head off with it. Her blood is corrosive, however, and dissolves the blade.


Beowulf's DM was an ass.

dual_wielder
2007-09-07, 02:34 PM
Sigurd had Gram

Runolfr
2007-09-07, 02:39 PM
Sigurd had Gram

Sigurd and Siegfried are the same; just regional variations on the name.

Matthew
2007-09-07, 02:47 PM
So, from thee,
thou sovran of the Shining-Danes,
Scyldings'-bulwark, a boon I seek, --
and, Friend-of-the-folk, refuse it not,
O Warriors'-shield, now I've wandered far, --
that I alone with my liegemen here,
this hardy band, may Heorot purge!
More I hear, that the monster dire,
in his wanton mood, of weapons recks not;
hence shall I scorn -- so Hygelac stay,
king of my kindred, kind to me! --
brand or buckler to bear in the fight,
gold-colored targe: but with gripe alone
must I front the fiend and fight for life,
foe against foe.
-- Beowulf in Hypertext (http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html), Chapter VI

As far as I can see, you are reading it wrong. That passage refers to Grendel not caring to use weapons himself, not that he is impervious to weapons. Beowulf wants a fair fight. See below for Beowulf's motivation in Chapter X:


"Of force in fight no feebler I count me,
in grim war-deeds, than Grendel deems him.
Not with the sword, then, to sleep of death
his life will I give, though it lie in my power.
No skill is his to strike against me,
my shield to hew though he hardy be,
bold in battle; we both, this night,
shall spurn the sword, if he seek me here,
unweaponed, for war. Let wisest God,
sacred Lord, on which side soever
doom decree as he deemeth right."

As you can see, beowulf considers himself capable of killing Grendel with a sword. And why would his companions attempt to strike Grendel with their Swords if it were common knowledge that he could not be harmed by them?

Runolfr
2007-09-07, 02:48 PM
I correct myself. Just got to the battle with Grendel's mother, and Beowulf took Unferth's sword Hrunting into her cave, but it proved useless.

Runolfr
2007-09-07, 02:50 PM
As far as I can see, you are reading it wrong. That passage refers to Grendel not caring to use weapons himself, not that he is impervious to weapons. Beowulf wants a fair fight. See below for Beowulf's motivation in Chapter X:

As you can see, beowulf considers himself capable of killing Grendel with a sword. And why would his companions attempt to strike Grendel with their Swords if it were common knowledge that he could not be harmed by them?

I see how it could be read either way, so I'll not dispute your interpretation.

Droodle
2007-09-07, 02:53 PM
Why would Beowulf be a fighter? It seems to me that Barbarian would be a much better fit for him.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 03:08 PM
Dragon magazine did an article with stats on Beowulf in issue 329. (March 2005)
I don't actually own this issue, so I don't know what it says.
I have it. It's near the top of my pile at the moment, too.

But I don't want to contaminate the ideas being gnerated here. It's often so much cooler when you can come up with this stuff yourself. :smallwink:

Runolfr
2007-09-07, 03:50 PM
Why would Beowulf be a fighter? It seems to me that Barbarian would be a much better fit for him.

You could argue for either. How would you stat him as a barbarian?

MrNexx
2007-09-07, 03:53 PM
Why would Beowulf be a fighter? It seems to me that Barbarian would be a much better fit for him.

He's not a berzerker. He was noted for his great skill in combat, not for his ferocity. I'm hard-pressed to think of any hero of the Icelandic Sagas or Anglo-Saxon poetry who would be well-served by the "Barbarian" class. Egil would be the closest, though he'd also have to have some levels in a spellcasting class.

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-07, 03:56 PM
He's not a berzerker. He was noted for his great skill in combat, not for his ferocity. I'm hard-pressed to think of any hero of the Icelandic Sagas or Anglo-Saxon poetry who would be well-served by the "Barbarian" class. Egil would be the closest, though he'd also have to have some levels in a spellcasting class.

What about Thor? He got angry a lot.

MrNexx
2007-09-07, 04:06 PM
I said Sagas and Anglo-Saxon poetry, not Eddas. I tend to disagree with stating out deities.

Crow
2007-09-07, 06:57 PM
Where is superior unarmed strike?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 07:12 PM
Where is superior unarmed strike?
Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords. Gives non-monks scaling damage for their unarmed strikes. Gives monks damage as if they were higher level.

ForzaFiori
2007-09-07, 07:54 PM
Why would Beowulf be a fighter? It seems to me that Barbarian would be a much better fit for him.

Beowulf was NOT a berserker. He was a skilled fighter, like most hero's of the time. Very few Celtic hero's would be a barbarian.

also: were reading Beowulf in my english class right now. Its my...3rd time through it i think.
good story.

Dervag
2007-09-07, 08:09 PM
Beowulf was NOT a berserker. He was a skilled fighter, like most hero's of the time. Very few Celtic hero's would be a barbarian.Although Cuchulain would probably have some levels in it.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-07, 08:22 PM
Didn't they already stat out Beowulf in Dragon Magazine?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 08:33 PM
Didn't they already stat out Beowulf in Dragon Magazine?
Already been established.

Thus far, no one's disputed my comment about it being more fun to try statting him out ourselves. :smallsmile:

Crow
2007-09-07, 09:21 PM
I was imagining Grendel as a Fire Giant. He was of a giant race, and I believe his mother had burning blood...which I could see thematically for a fire giant.

The only thing is that his mother is much smaller and is in an underwater lair...or at least a lair that required swimming to reach (cave system with concealed entrance?).

So Beowulf will need to be high enough level to solo a fire giant in a grapple?

MrNexx
2007-09-07, 09:34 PM
In the poem, Grendel was of the line of Cain and demons. However, given that this was written in a liminal time in Anglo-Saxon religious history, "demons" could cover a large territory, from D&D fiends to fey to giants.

Crow
2007-09-07, 10:07 PM
Already been established.

Thus far, no one's disputed my comment about it being more fun to try statting him out ourselves. :smallsmile:

Ok, let's just see it. =)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 10:25 PM
Ok, let's just see it. =)
All of it? Or just the most pressing details? And of course, we also have Grendel, Grendel's Mother, and the Firedrake, but I certainly don't have the time for everything right now.

Now, don't say I didn't warn you:
Beowulf
Neutral Good Human Fighter 15
Str 24, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
Skills: Climb +25, Jump +25, Spot +9, Survival +9, Swim +25
Feats: Combat Expertise, Diehard, Enduance, Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Skill Focus (swim), Track, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant
Possessions: +2 mithral chainmail, +3 heavy wooden shield of fire resistance 20, ring of protection +1, belt of giant strength +4, +2 dagger, masterwork bastard sword

I think you can fill in the rest of the blanks. Note that this article was published before Superior Unarmed Strike was introduced to the game. Otherwise, I'm sure he'd have that feat. I mean, it's a real no-brainer.

Crow
2007-09-07, 10:29 PM
We weren't too far off at all...I'm not so sure about some of it, but to each his own. Did they happen to say what creature type Grendel would be?

Edit; Was so curious I totally blew off reading your post, lol! What issue is that btw? Can you order back issues anywhere? Interestingly, I put him as Lawful Neutral, but Neutral Good did cross my mind...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 10:43 PM
We weren't too far off at all...I'm not so sure about some of it, but to each his own.
Reminds me when someone on these boards posted homebrew stats for a murder of crows (i.e. crow swarm). Turned out to be almost identical to the version presented in Tome of Magic. Of course, this homebrewer wasn't aware that version existed at the time.


Did they happen to say what creature type Grendel would be?
Grendel and his mother are both unique Monstrous Humanoids.


Edit; Was so curious I totally blew off reading your post, lol! What issue is that btw? Can you order back issues anywhere?
#329 (http://paizo.com/store/magazines/dragon/issues/2005/v5748btpy7yda). As you can see, Paizo is offering back issues in either PDF or printed forms.

Khosan
2007-09-07, 10:59 PM
I always thought of Grendel as being some kind of troll.

Then again, the last time I read it was four years ago, and I read it before I went to sleep.

Could stat out Grendel, actually.

Crow
2007-09-07, 11:05 PM
I had thoght of a troll as well, but that regeneration thing just nixes the whole "tear off it's arm" thing. Post it up, I'm curious.

What about a Firbolg with class levels??


As you can see, Paizo is offering back issues in either PDF or printed forms.

Thanks man!

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-07, 11:11 PM
Firbolg sounds pretty good.

Don't bother with Leadership - he didnt have a cohort, which is the major part of that feat. I might be remembering it wrong, but didn't he have a magic cauldron that resurrected the dead, but without speech? Or was that some other Irish myth?

Crow
2007-09-07, 11:21 PM
Firbolg sounds pretty good.

Don't bother with Leadership - he didnt have a cohort, which is the major part of that feat. I might be remembering it wrong, but didn't he have a magic cauldron that resurrected the dead, but without speech? Or was that some other Irish myth?

I think Merlin had a cauldron that ressurected the dead.

I think you could consider Wiglaf a cohort. He was a retainer who helped Beowulf kill the dragon. Or rather killed it as Beowulf died.

MrNexx
2007-09-07, 11:30 PM
Firbolg sounds pretty good.

Don't bother with Leadership - he didnt have a cohort, which is the major part of that feat. I might be remembering it wrong, but didn't he have a magic cauldron that resurrected the dead, but without speech? Or was that some other Irish myth?

That's the Dagda.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 11:30 PM
I had thoght of a troll as well, but that regeneration thing just nixes the whole "tear off it's arm" thing.
Well, I would probably have gone Unique Creature route. I've never actually studied the epic, so I only have a lay understanding, but I probably would have done something between an Ogre and Troll. Naturally, nix the regeneration. But he would have had the Giant type with those influences.


Post it up, I'm curious.
Well, the stats aren't OGC, and I'm afraid of posting too much—given the board rules—especially in light of the amount of detail I gave on Beowulf. However, I suppose I could put up a little teaser.
Grendel
Chaotic Evil 10 HD Monstrous Humanoid
Swim Speed
SA: Frenzy, Rend
SQ: Darkvision, DR 15/bludgeoning, hold breath, low-light vision, scent
Carries dragonskin bag of Grendel, a unique magic item.

Kinda funny that he has Diehard as a bonus feat. Explains his ability to wander of before dying. But then Diehard also automatically stabilizes you, which clearly didn't happen in Grendel's case. Unless maybe he overexerted himself in getting away, causing more damage.

Grendel's mother is much like her son, except she has a blood curse and improved grab in place of frenzy and rend, and her DR is a bit tougher. She has 15 HD

While Beowulf's dragon is given unique stats in the article, it can be closely modeled by giving a Gargantuan red dragon a poisonous bite and removing its spellcasting and spell-like abilities. Not much else to differentiate it.


Thanks man!
You're welcome.

Crow
2007-09-07, 11:42 PM
Well, I would probably have gone Unique Creature route. I've never actually studied the epic, so I only have a lay understanding, but I probably would have done something between an Ogre and Troll. Naturally, nix the regeneration. But he would have had the Giant type with those influences.


Well, the stats aren't OGC, and I'm afraid of posting too much—given the board rules—especially in light of the amount of detail I gave on Beowulf. However, I suppose I could put up a little teaser.
Grendel
Chaotic Evil 10 HD Monstrous Humanoid
Swim Speed
SA: Frenzy, Rend
SQ: Darkvision, DR 15/bludgeoning, hold breath, low-light vision, scent
Carries dragonskin bag of Grendel, a unique magic item.

Kinda funny that he has Diehard as a bonus feat. Explains his ability to wander of before dying. But then Diehard also automatically stabilizes you, which clearly didn't happen in Grendel's case. Unless maybe he overexerted himself in getting away, causing more damage.

Grendel's mother is much like her son, except she has a blood curse and improved grab in place of frenzy and rend, and her DR is a bit tougher. She has 15 HD

While Beowulf's dragon is given unique stats in the article, it can be closely modeled by giving a Gargantuan red dragon a poisonous bite and removing its spellcasting and spell-like abilities. Not much else to differentiate it.


You're welcome.

Ogre is actually perfect, check out the "Merrow" type under the Ogre listing in the MM. Basically an Ogre with the aquatic subtype. I'm gonna pick up that issue.

The Reaping Mauler PrC from Complete Warrior could be useful for Beowulf.

Crow
2007-09-08, 11:56 AM
Ok, here are my results; These are done using core only, via the SRD.

Beowulf

Human Fighter 16
Lawful Neutral

Attributes: STR: 22 (33, +5 inherant, +6 belt), DEX: 14, CON: 18, INT: 13, WIS: 14, CHA: 14

Skills: Climb +19, Jump +22, Listen +8, Swim +27, Spot +6, Survival +7

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus x2 (Unarmed, Longsword), Weapon Specialization x2 (Unarmed, Longsword), Greater Weapon Focus (Longsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Longsword), Combat Expertise, Athletic, Endurance, Die Hard, Power Attack, Track, Leadership, Improved Initiative

Items: Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (used), Belt of Giant Strength +6, Masterwork Longsword, +4 Chain Shirt of Light Fortification, +4 Hvy Wooden Shield of Fire Resistance, Ring of Protection +3, +2 Dagger



Grendel

Ogre (Merrow) Barbarian 10

Large Giant
Hit Dice: 4d8+16 + 10d12+40 (132 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (land), 50 ft. (swim)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+25
Attack: Unarmed +21 melee (1d6+8)
Full Attack: Unarmed +21/+16 melee (1d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rage 3/day
Special Qualities: Water Breathing (amphibious), darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, trap sense +3, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction 2/-
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: STR: 26, DEX: 10, CON: 18, INT: 6, WIS: 10, CHA: 4
Skills: Climb +8, Jump +13, Listen +7, Spot +2, Survival +5, Swim +21
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, Endurance, Die Hard
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Challenge Rating: 13
Alignment: Chaotic Evil




Grendel's Mother stats coming if there is demand....

Turcano
2007-09-08, 08:31 PM
One thing that I've noticed in this thread is that everyone is underestimating Beowulf's Strength score. The text states that Beowulf has the strength of thirty normal men, and extrapolation from the encumbrance tables from the assumed average (Str 10) results in a Strength score of 34.

Matthew
2007-09-08, 09:37 PM
I wouldn't be inclined to take statements like that quite so literally.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-08, 10:10 PM
*gets popcorn and takes a seat*

Generic PC
2007-09-08, 10:18 PM
^^^^
Can i have some?

Turcano
2007-09-08, 10:28 PM
I wouldn't be inclined to take statements like that quite so literally.

It's a work of fiction. There's no such thing as corrosive blood in the real world, either, but it's still part of the story.

Jothki
2007-09-08, 10:53 PM
It's a work of fiction. There's no such thing as corrosive blood in the real world, either, but it's still part of the story.

There was also that part where he claimed that he had swam for days while fighting sea monsters. He could have been making that up, but if he wasn't, that's epic levelish right there.

Actually, just how skewed are the rules for swimming in D&D? Could a moderate-level fighter swim for days and engage in combat without getting tired?

Zincorium
2007-09-08, 10:59 PM
There was also that part where he claimed that he had swam for days while fighting sea monsters. He could have been making that up, but if he wasn't, that's epic levelish right there.

Actually, just how skewed are the rules for swimming in D&D? Could a moderate-level fighter swim for days and engage in combat without getting tired?

Well, it's either a DC 20 swim check or 1d6 nonlethal damage for every hour. With an extremely high strength score and maxed out ranks in swim, beowulf at medium to high levels could make it even with the armor check penalty almost all the time, if we set those high enough he can do it pretty much forever (given that you don't fail even on a natural one if your overall modifier is still high enough).

However, given that he was fighting the sea serpents, even a few dice of nonlethal damage could have hastened his demise (being unconscious around your enemies is not an enviable position).

Turcano
2007-09-08, 11:02 PM
There was also that part where he claimed that he had swam for days while fighting sea monsters. He could have been making that up, but if he wasn't, that's epic levelish right there.

Actually, just how skewed are the rules for swimming in D&D? Could a moderate-level fighter swim for days and engage in combat without getting tired?

You have to make a Swim check every round to make progress (and must either succeed or fail by less than 5 not to sink), and make a DC 20 Swim check each hour to avoid 1d6 nonlethal damage. So you could, provided you kept making the checks (and a +12 Str mod would go a long way in that).

Edit: Freakin' ninjas.

Ted_Stryker
2007-09-09, 02:09 AM
I would probably make Beowulf a straight Fighter 22. His epic feats would be Epic Endurance and Epic Skill Focus (Swim). He was underwater a long time vs. Grendel's mother, and it was also a very long swim he made in the poem. His Con has to be 25 to qualify for Epic Endurance.

He's described as having a hand-grip with the strength of 30 normal men. Just based on the encumbrance tables that is a Str of 34, but with the Improved Grapple feat you can knock his Str down to 26, and it's effectively a 34 for the purposes of grappling.

He'd still have 18 feats after Improved Grapple. Improved Unarmed Strike, Leadership, Endurance, (Greater) Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), (Greater) Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike) would be obvious ones to fill in, and he'd need to take Skill Focus (Swim) to qualify for the epic version. Still a lot more to fill in...

Matthew
2007-09-09, 06:15 AM
It's a work of fiction. There's no such thing as corrosive blood in the real world, either, but it's still part of the story.

Yeah, I am aware, but I am not urging caution on the grounds of 'realism'. Texts like Beowulf tend not to deal in closed details; the number thirty is very popular in the poem (as it is in many others) and consequently is often considered to be a synonym for 'many'. If it served the story, Beowulf would in one chapter have the strength of ten men and another the strength of a hundred. It is also worth noting that the lines in question refer to reports of Beowulf's hand grip strength, conveyed as part of a formal introduction and recognition, and not the direct statement of the poet as to Beowulf's strength.
Taking literal meaning from passages intended to convey the idea that Beowulf is supernaturally strong is dangerous. Add to that the fact that Beowulf's strength is God given (and thus open to change) and you have a serious problem when trying to measure his strength in any meaningful way.


There are some interesting articles out there about this sort of thing, such as Martin Puhvel's 'The Swimming Prowess of Beowulf', Folklore, Vol. 82, No. 4. (Winter, 1971), pp. 276-280.

Crow
2007-09-09, 07:20 AM
I would probably make Beowulf a straight Fighter 22. His epic feats would be Epic Endurance and Epic Skill Focus (Swim). He was underwater a long time vs. Grendel's mother, and it was also a very long swim he made in the poem. His Con has to be 25 to qualify for Epic Endurance.

I think Matthew nailed it spot on btw, but I also wanted to address this particular statement;

While I am sure Beowulf was underwater for a good deal of time, I also got the impression that Grendel's lair was some sort of underwater cavern (underwater entrance leading to cave system). I don't think he was holding his breath the whole time.

Ted_Stryker
2007-09-09, 07:31 AM
While I am sure Beowulf was underwater for a good deal of time, I also got the impression that Grendel's lair was some sort of underwater cavern (underwater entrance leading to cave system). I don't think he was holding his breath the whole time.
Bo-ring! :smallbiggrin:

Crow
2007-09-09, 11:25 AM
I have added my rendition of Grendel to my above post, as well as equipped Beowulf with (wealth-by-level appropriate...or close) gear.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3162389&postcount=45

If there is demand, I will continue with Grendel's Mother, and the Dragon at some point.

MrNexx
2007-09-09, 01:54 PM
When I was translating Beowulf in college, one of the girls in my class wasn't familiar with the poem (gorram graduate students in English... half of them didn't know the conventions of grammar and a handful didn't know Beowulf from the Faerie Queen), and realized that the word used for swim in reference to going to Grendel's mother was actually the same as the word for row. I'd have to look through my side-by-side of Heaney (which is currently in storage) to find it again, but she was right.

Rex Blunder
2007-09-09, 04:51 PM
An interesting discussion of that here (http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-notes.html#e506), where the author makes an argument for the entire swimming passage to be about rowing. In which case we'll have to swap out swimming for profession (sailor) :smalltongue:

Incidentally, if you want to read a modern translation online, not the 1910 one you can find one here (http://www.heorot.dk/beo-intro-rede.html).

Matthew
2007-09-09, 05:34 PM
An interesting discussion of that here (http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-notes.html#e506), where the author makes an argument for the entire swimming passage to be about rowing. In which case we'll have to swap out swimming for profession (sailor) :smalltongue:

Incidentally, if you want to read a modern translation online, not the 1910 one you can find one here (http://www.heorot.dk/beo-intro-rede.html).

Heh, I use that site from time to time and I had never read that explanatory note before. Good find, Rex.

Now that you mention it, though, I think I might have been in a class where that was discussed as a possible interpretation.

Crow
2007-09-09, 07:26 PM
Heh, I use that site from time to time and I had never read that explanatory note before. Good find, Rex.

Now that you mention it, though, I think I might have been in a class where that was discussed as a possible interpretation.

If that explanation is true, it is somewhat underwhelming that Beowulf did so while wearing his mail and sword...

Matthew
2007-09-09, 07:34 PM
If that explanation is true, it is somewhat underwhelming that Beowulf did so while wearing his mail and sword...

Personally, I doubt that it's true, but I would have to go back to the original text to see how it works. Beowulf doesn't make a big deal about being fully armed whilst 'swimming', it's just referred to as his means of defence against the sea beasts. I can't see it working in the translation I am looking at, as it seems clear that Beowulf is being directly attacked.
However, if Beowulf was actually using a float of some kind, the whole story becomes a lot more plausible. I can't see any real evidence for it, though.

Crow
2007-09-09, 08:05 PM
Personally, I doubt that it's true, but I would have to go back to the original text to see how it works. Beowulf doesn't make a big deal about being fully armed whilst 'swimming', it's just referred to as his means of defence against the sea beasts. I can't see it working in the translation I am looking at, as it seems clear that Beowulf is being directly attacked.
However, if Beowulf was actually using a float of some kind, the whole story becomes a lot more plausible. I can't see any real evidence for it, though.

In the translation I am looking at, it says;

"Naked swords, as we swam along,
we held in hand, with hope to guard us
against the whales..."

To me this sounds like they quite literaly held their swords in hand, naked presumably meaning unsheathed. Which would make it quite difficult to row, unless you used one oar at a time.

edit: And how does my Grendel (or Beowulf) look?

Zincorium
2007-09-09, 08:13 PM
I'll be honest, the visual of a warrior paddling around in a little one-person boat fighting things about twenty or thirty times the size of the vessel he's in amuses me a great deal.

Although I imagine the reality was something like this:

(larger norse vessel pulls up alongside Beowulf's boat, where he lays sunburnt and dehydrated, waving his sword around at nothing in particular)

Beowulf- "More sea serpents?!! I'll kill you all too! Just stop moving around so much..."

Captain of vessel- "You haven't by any chance been drinking see water, feller?"

Beowulf- "Maaaaybe."

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-09, 08:30 PM
In the translation I am looking at, it says;

"Naked swords, as we swam along,
we held in hand, with hope to guard us
against the whales..."

To me this sounds like they quite literaly held their swords in hand, naked presumably meaning unsheathed. Which would make it quite difficult to row, unless you used one oar at a time.

edit: And how does my Grendel (or Beowulf) look?
It is similarly tricky to swim while holding a naked blade.

Crow
2007-09-09, 08:35 PM
It is similarly tricky to swim while holding a naked blade.

But not so difficult as trying to grasp an oar while doing so. ;)