Shield Bearer Fighter better than standard Two Handed Fighter?

[cartejos]

The Shield Bearer alternative class for fighter from Dragon 310 gives a really interesting spin on the Sword and Board archetype.
Shield bearer does a couple things.
First, it modifies the skill list of a Fighter.
Then, it gives proficiency with Simple and Martial weapons; Light/Medium/Heavy Armor; Shields; and Armor Spikes.
The class alternative forces you to take Improved Shield Bash as your first Fighter Bonus Feat, and restricts the bonus feat list you can take, but there are still a bunch of goodies in the list.
The Fighter alternative classes were all kind of interesting, allowing you to take some special abilities rather than a bonus feat at a given level.

The Special Ability that's the focus of my interest is this:
The shield bearer may use her shield in place of an unarmed attack to perform special maneuvers. Treat the Shield Strike ability as the Improved Unarmed Attack feat for purposes of taking other feats in the unarmed attack chain, such as Stunning Fist and Deflect Arrows. Instead of having a free hand, the shield bearer must have her shield readied in order to use these feats.

My first thought was Snap Kick, cause I've seen a bunch of people say Martial Characters take it anyway.

A simple build I was thinking of was an Elven Fighter(Shield Bearer) 4/Barbarian 2
Flaw: ??
Flaw: ??
1: Improved Buckler Defense
Fighter 1: Improved Shield Bash
Fighter 2: Power Attack
3: ??
Fighter(Zhentarim) 3: Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Fighter 4: Shield Strike
6:Snap Kick
Barbarian 2: Improved Trip

Using an Elven Courtblade and using the rule that allows you to trade Tower Shield prof for
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dwarven Buckler Axe)

I think this is a tremendous upgrade compared to any Two Weapon Build, but I'm not sure how it stands up to standard Two Handers, as I haven't played very many and am unsure about the Feat Tax

[mesc]

Well I can say that a standard fighter using a 2 handed weapon, can deal an incredible amount of damage. Power attack combined with some simple feats like shock trooper, leap attack or combat brute would greatly increase your damage. A standard 2 handed build is only slightly weaker than a barbarian in damage

Also it may not necessarily beat a two weapon fighting build. For example, a common two weapon fighting build would include trip attacks. With their large amount of attacks, they can drop many foes to the ground and make them stay that way. Another variant would be a combat reflex oriented two weapon fighter. With standstill+ tripping + thicket of blades (gained through martial stance feat), they can make good lockdown builds

[mesc]

This is a good example of a two weapon fighting build. The damage may be a bit less than a two handed weapon build, but it would most likely trump a sword and board

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031211&postcount=30

[cartejos]

Well I can say that a standard fighter using a 2 handed weapon, can deal an incredible amount of damage. Power attack combined with some simple feats like shock trooper, leap attack or combat brute would greatly increase your damage. A standard 2 handed build is only slightly weaker than a barbarian in damage

The build provided has some room for incorporating a couple extra feats, shock trooper can fit in at about ECL 9, if there isn't anything granting a bonus feat tacked on after ECL 6, so the build is like 2 handed plus, cause you get the extra snap kick attack with your shield that you can put Bashing and other enchantments on


Also it may not necessarily beat a two weapon fighting build. For example, a common two weapon fighting build would include trip attacks. With their large amount of attacks, they can drop many foes to the ground and make them stay that way. Another variant would be a combat reflex oriented two weapon fighter. With standstill+ tripping + thicket of blades (gained through martial stance feat), they can make good lockdown builds

This build also has improved trip, and while getting fewer attacks than TWF, TWF grants no extra affect with Combat Reflexes until Double Hit, where Snap Kick does, with the shield, and the two handed sword. Again, the build I presented has a few spare feat slots still in the early game. And while not being 100% certain, I've read in various places that Snap Kick triggers on Improved Trip, and I don't think TWF does.

[mesc]

However, despite those points, sword and board fighting is pretty fun if built right. They gain access to a lot more options in combat, and can utilize a lot of combat maneuvers in their strategy. There are a lot of useful and cool feats like shield charge, shield slam, shield snare, block arrw, shield toss and more.
And because of all those amazing feats, in my opinion the useful bonus abilities of shield bearer fighter is not worth choosing over.
You should ask your DM to add feats like those to the options shield bearer fighter can take (they also make sense).

[mesc]

Yes your current build is still comparable against a two weapon fighting build. (Unless the broken improved and greater combat reflexes are added in) After a couple more levels though, the two weapon fighter can really mess up their opponents, like the one i sent in the link. And unless you can obtain some of the good feats, which shield bearer does not grant, this build may be left behind

[Darrin]

I would consider adding Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII) and TWF with two heavy shields. This feat *replaces* the TWF penalties with -2 primary/-2 offhand. It could also be interpreted to replace the penalties from Improved/Greater TWF, so all your shield attacks, primary and offhand, only incur a -2 attack penalty. Adding Snap Kick would incur another -2 penalty, but -4 for a metric buttload of shield bashes could be pretty darned effective.

[cartejos]

Yes your current build is still comparable against a two weapon fighting build. (Unless the broken improved and greater combat reflexes are added in) After a couple more levels though, the two weapon fighter can really mess up their opponents, like the one i sent in the link. And unless you can obtain some of the good feats, which shield bearer does not grant, this build may be left behind

The point is to Multiclass out after fighter 4, not stay for 20 levels, multiclassing or PrC'ing out will increase the power level substantially

[cartejos]

I would consider adding Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII) and TWF with two heavy shields.

Would that be more effective than using a Spiked Chain with Snap Kick and a Dwarven Buckler Axe on your arm?

[Darrin]

Would that be more effective than using a Spiked Chain with Snap Kick and a Dwarven Buckler Axe on your arm?

Not sure about that. There could be some issues... it's not clear if the Dwarven Buckler-Axe still technically counts as a shield. A&EG/Races of Stone lists it on the table as a weapon. Also, the best advantage to using a spiked chain over a greatsword is the reach, but the spiked chain and buckler-axe don't have the same reach. You'd want to avoid situations where you're attacking something with the spiked chain but can't reach it with the buckler-axe.

[cartejos]

it's not clear if the Dwarven Buckler-Axe still technically counts as a shield. A&EG/Races of Stone lists it on the table as a weapon.

Text says "Appears to be a normal buckler" and while Appears may be an operative word to say that it's not a buckler, I believe the important bit is "normal." which seems to be backed up when later the text says "As with any shield, when you attack with this, you do not gain the shield bonus to your AC"


Also, the best advantage to using a spiked chain over a greatsword is the reach, but the spiked chain and buckler-axe don't have the same reach. You'd want to avoid situations where you're attacking something with the spiked chain but can't reach it with the buckler-axe.

In the OP I said Elven Courtblade, idk why I said spiked chain in the last post, my mistake

[daremetoidareyo]

Pharoah's fist from sandstorm is a neat addition to that. The target and adjacent enemies all have to pass a will save or be stunned for a round.

[cartejos]

I've realized that since a dwarven buckler axe can be separately enchanted as a weapon/shield an aptitude version would be an extreme upgrade

[Prime32]

Superior Unarmed Strike gives all your shield bashes 1d6~2d6 base damage depending on level, which is better than EWP (dwarven buckler-axe) apart from the lower crit multiplier. If you add the bashing enchantment that rises to 4d6. For a two-handed build, you can also make it out of gold to increase that to 6d6.

[cartejos]

you can also make it out of gold to increase that to 6d6.

Gold...Buckler...Special Material? Where? How? I want it.

[darkdragoon]

Only light and heavy shields can be used to bash.

[cartejos]

Do you know of the Dwarven Buckler Axe?

[One Step Two]

The Dwarven Buckler-axe can be used to make attacks, but oddly, it doesn't count as a shield bash...

So, this is a fun little glitch, but only in this case: The Buckler-Axe is not actually a shield, it's a weapon, which also happens to provide the AC, ACP and ASF of a buckler. The rules on how it works are:
"A dwarven buckler axe grants it's wielder a +1 shield bonus to [AC]. As with any shield, when you attack with a dwaren buckler-axe, you do not get the shield bonus to your AC."
This is not a shield bash, but an attack with a specific item that happens to grant a Shield Bonus, as shield bash attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#shieldBashAttacks) have their own definition in the SRD.

I wouldn't say that it categorically cannot be used, just that this is just a weird RAW quirk.

[daremetoidareyo]

The Dwarven Buckler-axe can be used to make attacks, but oddly, it doesn't count as a shield bash...

So, this is a fun little glitch, but only in this case: The Buckler-Axe is not actually a shield, it's a weapon, which also happens to provide the AC, ACP and ASF of a buckler. The rules on how it works are:
"A dwarven buckler axe grants it's wielder a +1 shield bonus to [AC]. As with any shield, when you attack with a dwaren buckler-axe, you do not get the shield bonus to your AC."
This is not a shield bash, but an attack with a specific item that happens to grant a Shield Bonus, as shield bash attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#shieldBashAttacks) have their own definition in the SRD.

I wouldn't say that it categorically cannot be used, just that this is just a weird RAW quirk.

There's a punch knife in sandstorm that grants a shield bonus...

[One Step Two]

Reading a little more over Races of Stone, there's also the Gnome Tortoise Blade, which also grants a shield bonus. Again, I think most DM's wouldn't have a problem allowing them to be Categorized as shields for the purposes of shield bash related feats, but RAW, they are not shields, they're weapons.


There's a punch knife in sandstorm that grants a shield bonus...

Interesting! I just had a quick look in Sandstorm and found the weapon, the Manople, it's footnote explicitly calls out "This weapon can also be used as a Shield." So, by RAW, solid choice.

[cartejos]

The Dwarven Buckler-axe can be used to make attacks, but oddly, it doesn't count as a shield bash...

So, this is a fun little glitch, but only in this case: The Buckler-Axe is not actually a shield, it's a weapon, which also happens to provide the AC, ACP and ASF of a buckler. The rules on how it works are:
"A dwarven buckler axe grants it's wielder a +1 shield bonus to [AC]. As with any shield, when you attack with a dwaren buckler-axe, you do not get the shield bonus to your AC."
This is not a shield bash, but an attack with a specific item that happens to grant a Shield Bonus, as shield bash attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#shieldBashAttacks) have their own definition in the SRD.

I wouldn't say that it categorically cannot be used, just that this is just a weird RAW quirk.

Enchanted as a Shield or Weapon or Both. Has lines that say "As with any shield..." "Similar to a Standard Buckler" "In addition to it's protective qualities" it provides the same stats as a normal buckler, but it's not a shield.

"If it looks like a stick, smells like a stick, feels like a stick, behaves like a stick, but is painted? It's not a stick" -WotC

[One Step Two]

Enchanted as a Shield or Weapon or Both. Has lines that say "As with any shield..." "Similar to a Standard Buckler" "In addition to it's protective qualities" it provides the same stats as a normal buckler, but it's not a shield.

"If it looks like a stick, smells like a stick, feels like a stick, behaves like a stick, but is painted? It's not a stick" -WotC

I know! It's so weird how RAW works like that sometimes, because while it has all the inherent limitations and specific call outs as a shield... it's not listed as a shield, but a weapon.

With that said though, was there ever any ruling on carrying two shields into battle? Because shields of bashing with Agile shield fighter, and then moving into Bloodstorm blade for ranged shenanigans could be hilarious using the Shield Strike ability.

[Saintheart]

That Zhentarim Intimidate feature I personally wouldn't mix in with a sword-and-board unless it's truly a dead level and there's no other ACF that's available at third level.

First reason being that Intimidate depends on CHA, which is going to make you more MAD. You're going elven race, so you can't pick up a +4 size bonus unless you're fighting halflings or something.

Second, intimidating takes a standard action in combat that you could be using to bash people with your shield or chop open other people with your sword. Fighters basically come in two varieties: either smash out lots of hitpoint damage or battlefield control, with the best optimised fighters being those who excel at both. Zhentarim Intimidate costs you a standard action which, if it works, imposes a -2 on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws for one round. This is primarily help for casters, since absent a few combat maneuvers you don't generally force saving throws on people, and a -2 on attack rolls, while useful, doesn't make the opponent any more vulnerable to your attacks.

Compare even good old Improved Trip: okay, you have to make an opposed STR or DEX check, but if it succeeds the opponent is prone (-4 to melee AC) and has to waste a move action standing up again (and eat your AoO as he does, at a -4 to his AC.)

This is not to say Zhentarim fighter is useless, but it usually shines best in fear-blasting builds combined with Imperious Command, which primarily relies on you stacking fear effects on the target as fast as possible to make it cower or flee. I wouldn't waste the space if I had any option - and there likely are others out there for replacement ACFs or class substitutions that would be better than this. Hell, I'd argue a single level in a martial adept class would give you access to more funky tricks and combat maneuvers than this one level would. Iron Guard's Glare. Emerald Razor. Blood in the Water, not that I've looked to see what the precise prereqs for those low level maneuvers and stances are.

[cartejos]

I don't think there are any other 3rd level fighter alternatives out there? The only reason I brought it up was because there's nothing else to do at that level.

[Saintheart]

I think I might have edited after you posted - for clarity, consider a single level in a martial adept -- Warblade or Swordsage maybe. Lots of fun stuff to be had even at low levels with that.

[cartejos]

But I was intending 4 Fighter Levels for the bonus feat, so the third fighter level is useless without Zhentarim, so that's why it's in the build. I like ToB, but I really hate the Strikes. The boosts and stances are delicious, but few of the strikes put a twinkle in my eye. Mongeese aside, Zhentarim just makes a useless level one that might enhance some RP values

[Saintheart]

Fair enough, and TBH I can't see any other 3rd level substitute ACFs out there for Fighter on a quick look either. :smallsigh:

[daremetoidareyo]

Fair enough, and TBH I can't see any other 3rd level substitute ACFs out there for Fighter on a quick look either. :smallsigh:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

+1 to rolls against an extremely limited set of situations

[mesc]

The point is to Multiclass out after fighter 4, not stay for 20 levels, multiclassing or PrC'ing out will increase the power level substantially

Oh if that is so, then yes shield bearer fighter is very useful and strong

[Prime32]

Gold...Buckler...Special Material? Where? How? I want it.

Magic of Faerun... but applying it to a buckler-axe is pointless, because gold/platinum weapons take two hands to wield and can't be finessed (and as a light weapon, a buckler-axe doesn't gain any benefit from being wielded in two hands). And because the bashing property is restricted to light and heavy shields, gold will only add +1d6 damage rather than +2d6 +1 average damage, since the buckler-axe isn't compatible with Superior Unarmed Strike either.

[darkdragoon]

Do you know of the Dwarven Buckler Axe?

It's not particularly obscure.

It's also not listed as an Exotic Shield so you can't trade tower shield proficiency for it. So you need two Exotic Weapon Profs for that and the Courtblade.

Usually when someone is using a sword and an axe that means for the High Sword Low Axe style, but yours would be even more feat intensive than usual.

Spiked Heavy is 1d6 pierce
Buckler-Axe is 1d6 slash and a better crit mod.