Dex to Str, Str to Dex ASI bonus... Anyone ever tried?

[Spiritchaser]

I’m going to try something in my next fixed array or point buy campaign.

The difficulty in having high Dex and high Str, and the limits that can impose has got me to wondering if physical attributes could be tied.

Basically, if you apply a full 2 points from an ASI to Str, you woul also add one point to Dex.

Similarly, if you applied a full 2 points from an ASI to Dex, you would also be entitled to add a single point to Strength.
In most cases this won’t make a tremendous difference, probably 2 extra pints of Dex for most characters.

This would be a boon for barbarians in particular, but also for those who want agile polearm fighters, strong rogues or multiclass Dex paladins.

The thing is, I don’t actually see this breaking much.

Has anyone tried anything similar?

[SirGraystone]

If you want to do something like that in your Campaign, then let every players when they pick ASI add a +2 to one ability and +1 to another so everyones is the same.

[Willie the Duck]

If you want to do something like that in your Campaign, then let every players when they pick ASI add a +2 to one ability and +1 to another so everyones is the same.

I think he was deliberately trying to throw a bone to those who want to play not-specifically All-Dex or All-Str martial types.

[Derpaligtr]

I think he was deliberately trying to throw a bone to those who want to play not-specifically All-Dex or All-Str martial types.

Or bring in realism. Dexterity and strength are tied at the hip, other ability scores not so much.

[Arcangel4774]

Or bring in realism. Dexterity and strength are tied at the hip, other ability scores not so much.

An arguement could be made towards wisdom and inteligence beeing siimilarly tied, although less closely.

Amusingly if anything was to be tied to charisma i would say it would be constitution, as people in better health are often more sociable and/or likeable. Take the jfk-nixon debate as an example.

[Derpaligtr]

An arguement could be made towards wisdom and inteligence beeing siimilarly tied, although less closely.

Amusingly if anything was to be tied to charisma i would say it would be constitution, as people in better health are often more sociable and/or likeable. Take the jfk-nixon debate as an example.

Very loosely would I tie Int and Wis, but for the sake of fairness I could see it.

I've always let people replace Charisma with Str, Sex, or Con when doing performance checks, intimidation checks, or wgatever else.

You can be the ugliest, stutteringist, and stupidest dude out there... But carrying a big stick is always going to be intimidating once you smash a different creatire to death.

[Talionis]

Intelligence is probably the least used stat in 5E. Strength maybe the second least useful, Charisma is probably roughly equal in use to Strength, and certainly some characters use both.

I think that both Barbarian and Monk maybe should have built into them ASI's that can only be used as Stat boosts, similar to Fighter but with less flexibility to be used as Feats. Both classes are ASI hungry and really cannot use their ASI's for feats. That may have been purposeful. Monk has enough fun abilities that even though their ASI's seem tied up, they at least get candy at most levels. Barbarians do feel woefully, under developed and appreciated.

My thought would be to give everyone an extra feat or to give Barbarians and Monks stat boosts at certain levels.

[Spiritchaser]

I think he was deliberately trying to throw a bone to those who want to play not-specifically All-Dex or All-Str martial types.

It is primarily this. I think a pseudo reality argument could also be made in most cases (per Derpaligter), but that’s not my primary reasoning here.

I see this as helping mixed Dex/Strength concepts a bit, probably to the tune of a free ASI or so, without really strengthening too much that is already strong. Dex sorcadins and some barbs might be a minor exception, but I don’t foresee a huge problem...

[Arcangel4774]

Only feasible issue could be with fighters and thier abundant ASI/feats.

[JackPhoenix]

Very loosely would I tie Int and Wis, but for the sake of fairness I could see it.

I've always let people replace Charisma with Str, Sex, or Con when doing performance checks, intimidation checks, or wgatever else.

You can be the ugliest, stutteringist, and stupidest dude out there... But carrying a big stick is always going to be intimidating once you smash a different creatire to death.

Sex-based performance or intimidation checks? I'm not sure I want to know what's going on in your games.

Funny typos aside, using physical abilities for Intimidation is a misunderstanding what that skill represents. It's not "Am I scary?" Any mid-to high level character should be scary to normal people. It's "Can I force people to act the way I want through threats instead of lies or reasonable arguments?" Strength or dexterity has nothing to do with that.

[justduelist]

Or bring in realism. Dexterity and strength are tied at the hip, other ability scores not so much.

strength and dexterity are not tied at the hip
strength is the raw power and speed of ones muscles while dexterity is coordination and muscle memory
each of which can develop together as you perform certain action(to a limited degree) but are developed much quicker independently.
think of it as STR and INT are the raw powers of the body and mind while DEX and WIS are the well integrated routines of the body and mind.
CON and CHA are both basically just catch alls that serve to fill whatever needed use dnd cant fit into the other scores.

you can already split your ASI between 2 scores which show a character developing these traits at the same time but if your groups ok with adding the extra boon then i don't see an issue

[JellyPooga]

I wouldn't make it a two-way street; I'd make it a merry-go-round.

Str : Con : Cha : Wis : Int : Dex : Str

Just follow the chain. It sort of dumps on Wis based characters, because of how mechanically useless Int is for non-Wizards, but it does reinforce the stsreotype of old/powerful/wise Clerics, Druids and Monks also being smart with their wisdom.

[Willie the Duck]

Only feasible issue could be with fighters and thier abundant ASI/feats.

Well let's look at what that might do:

The maximum abusability of this would be a someone who started with 9/11 in those two stats (let's say 9 str/11 dex) taking four +2/+1s and three +1/+2s and ending at level 19 with two 20s. Given that they would get to level 12 before they got their first 18 in either stat, I'm comfortable saying that they scored a pyrrhic victory over the system at best.

A more practical abuse would be a (say) Str 10 Dex 16 fighter using their levels 4, 6, and 8 slots to take +1/+2, and then +2/+1 twice, ending with Str15, Dex 20. Compared to the without-this-rule guy who did +0/+2, +0/+2 and +2/+0 who ends up with str12 Dex 20. Well good, now you have an archer who can wear plate mail (and have slightly better skills). Switching Str and Dex you have a polearm or greatsword fighter with better initiative who might consider wearing mithril half plate instead of plate, or even a breast plate if need be. They still need +1 dex (maybe slight rejiggering of initial premise) and another feat before they start doing medium-armor-master (which itself is not that powerful).

All in all this is looking like a minor perk at best (which I think was the OP's original intent).

[Unoriginal]

You're essentially giving free ASI to people.

It doesn't *break* the game... but you'll need tougher monsters and harder-to-solve events to challenge those PCs.

It'd be the same if you did a 34 points buy chargen instead of the 27 points one. Bigger stats = need bigger challenges.

[MilkmanDanimal]

I can't imagine needing to find a way to make DEX even more useful.

[Derpaligtr]

strength and dexterity are not tied at the hip
strength is the raw power and speed of ones muscles while dexterity is coordination and muscle memory
each of which can develop together as you perform certain action(to a limited degree) but are developed much quicker independently.
think of it as STR and INT are the raw powers of the body and mind while DEX and WIS are the well integrated routines of the body and mind.
CON and CHA are both basically just catch alls that serve to fill whatever needed use dnd cant fit into the other scores.

you can already split your ASI between 2 scores which show a character developing these traits at the same time but if your groups ok with adding the extra boon then i don't see an issue


Lol. Someone has never seem the legs of a ballerina. Powerful as all hell, yet they are considered the penacle of grace.

[Spiritchaser]

You're essentially giving free ASI to people.

It doesn't *break* the game... but you'll need tougher monsters and harder-to-solve events to challenge those PCs.

It'd be the same if you did a 34 points buy chargen instead of the 27 points one. Bigger stats = need bigger challenges.

Not quite the same.

My intent is to disproportionately increase the abilities of characters who rely on both dexterity and strength, while minimally improving other characters.

Increasing the number of points for point buy, or changing to a higher fixed array would increase power in all builds. That is not the intent of this change.

[Unoriginal]

Not quite the same.

My intent is to disproportionately increase the abilities of characters who rely on both dexterity and strength, while minimally improving other characters.

Increasing the number of points for point buy, or changing to a higher fixed array would increase power in all builds. That is not the intent of this change.

Well, it's like you're giving extra point buy/ASI to a few specific builds.

Rule of thumb: if your reasoning include "disproportionately" when comparing one type of character to the others, it's probably not a good idea, if you want a balanced game where people can play any type of character without feeling like others are favored while they're not.


With that houserule, you're discouraging heavy armor users, making Clerics who have heavy armor as a Domain feature less relevant, increasing the melee attacks of casters other than the Cleric, favoring Barbarians and Grapple Monks, etc.

Is it the results you want? If yes, go for it.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, it's like you're giving extra point buy/ASI to a few specific builds.

Rule of thumb: if your reasoning include "disproportionately" when comparing one type of character to the others, it's probably not a good idea, if you want a balanced game where people can play any type of character without feeling like others are favored while they're not.

Of course they are favored, that's the whole point. The OP is trying to favor balance Str/Dex martials. As to whether the specific instance is a good idea, I don't know. Certainly the rapier thread that has happened recently highlights that some people are a little tired of Dex20/Str8 or Str20/Dex8 warrior types. I think the Str16/Dex16 character is kind of like the Champion fighter or 4E Monk in that there's a compelling argument that maybe it does need a bit of favoring. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't write off the concept a not a good idea.


With that houserule, you're discouraging heavy armor users, making Clerics who have heavy armor as a Domain feature less relevant, increasing the melee attacks of casters other than the Cleric, favoring Barbarians and Grapple Monks, etc.

And favoring rangers, non-hex bladelocks, bow-and longsword elf character concepts, the fighter that picks defensive fighting style and non-SS/GWM/PAM feats, since 'who knows what magic weapon or armor will turn up.' There are lots of different styles that this might promote.

[Spiritchaser]

Well, it's like you're giving extra point buy/ASI to a few specific builds.

Rule of thumb: if your reasoning include "disproportionately" when comparing one type of character to the others, it's probably not a good idea, if you want a balanced game where people can play any type of character without feeling like others are favored while they're not.


With that houserule, you're discouraging heavy armor users, making Clerics who have heavy armor as a Domain feature less relevant, increasing the melee attacks of casters other than the Cleric, favoring Barbarians and Grapple Monks, etc.

Is it the results you want? If yes, go for it.

I think the question is, are the costs reasonable when weighed against the benefits.

The goal is to make mixed STR/DEX more viable. This does so weakly

Heavy armor less relevant: this is true for some barbarians and for those strength builds who do do not have heavy armor, who are in a position to take medium armor master or strength builds who do not have heavy armor and who are fine with 12 Dex to start This is a fairly small group. For what it’s worth it will allow archery fighters to wear plate more easily.

I’m fine with these.

Increase melee attacks of casters other than clerics: I’m sorry if I’m having a slow day, could you clarify?

I understand that this will allow a medium armor wearer with Dex 14 and STR 20 to be more simply built, that is the point, but am I missing something?

Favouring grapple monks: very desirable in my opinion

Favouring Barbarians: not generally necessary, and not greatly desired, but only a factor for some builds. I suspect we can live with it edit: Barb is a mixed STR/DEX build that does work, so making the mix stronger can’t help but make barbs easier to build... it’s doing what I want, just to a character that doesn’t need a lot of help due to existing class features

[ImthebOHGODBEES]

Lol. Someone has never seem the legs of a ballerina. Powerful as all hell, yet they are considered the penacle of grace.

Maybe we can be less condescending when we comment on others' comments?

Also, yes they have A strength, but I would still not expect them to have a higher than normal maximum carry capacity. They do their grace amazingly well and can do it for extended periods. But that's wiry sinew strength, not "burst the door down, grapple someone, or push a boulder" strength. They would lose miserably at a caber toss competition, and I would not expect Hafþór Björnsson to be able to dance en pointe.

[Gorgo]

Since your goal is to make things better for builds that need both strength and dex, one thought would be to look for a way to limit this power-up to those classes. Maybe make it a feat that has a requirement but that you can take multiple times? Otherwise, this is also a buff to pure strength builds, who can use dex for saves, and pure dex builds, who might sometimes want to use strength skills or care about carrying capacity.