What is a good replacement for Zone of Truth for Oath of Devotion Spells for Paladin?

[Paladinatheart]

So as DM I have a few house rules some of which involve forbidding some spells like Zone of Truth because I feel like it ruins alot of social encounters. But my Paladin chose Oath of Devotion ages ago and some how either I wasnt clear with him about it or he wasnt listening but he tried to cast Zone of Truth in one of my last sessions. I told him he couldnt use that spell, though he agreed he felt it unfair that he misses out on a spell, I also felt the same way so I said he could replace it with another 2nd level spell.

The options for Paladin lvl 2 spells are alright but he wanted a healing spell that he could use and argued for Prayer of Healing (which is actually a Lvl 2 Cleric spell). Though it was a cleric spell I also could see that a cleric and paladin are kind of on the "same level" in the sense of healing/good. This would free up some more spell slots that he has to forfeit for cure wounds all the time. I also allowed it because we dont really have a designated healer in the group other than the Druid. However the druid chose the Circle of the Moon feature so he is busy Wild Shaping when in combat, lets say, against a big boss we need someone to heal. But since this Oath spell Prayer of Healing (the one that replaced Zone of Truth) can only be used once I figured it was ok.

What are your guys thoughts on it? I am just curious. Should I have chosen something else?

[MrStabby]

I would have chosen something else, although if the player likes it then that's fine.

Zone of truth let's the character do something they couldn't and gives a bit more of a role out of combat. Prayer of healing is also out of combat but a paladin already has a bunch of healing options.

I would look to other divination spells to fill the gap. These will help broaden the character options back to what they normally would be.

[Nidgit]

Sorry, why can Prayer of Healing only be used once?

[Angelalex242]

Give him Augry.

You can have all kinds of fun with weal and woe.

[Paladinatheart]

Sorry, why can Prayer of Healing only be used once?


I misunderstood the mechanics behind it. I am new to 5e and still learning to familiarize myself with the rules.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Because the Oath Spells list of Paladin are separate from your spell list but you can cast them but only once until after short/long rest where you regain them.:smallsmile:

Normally Prayer of Healing is not part of the Oath Spells list of a Paladin, I just did some modification with the Oath of spell list...just to be clear.

That's not how it works, is that another house rule you're running? Oath Spells are an addition to your spell list, spells that are always prepared and not a separate thing. Your player would be able to cast it twice because at 5th level he has two 2nd level slots.

I'm not quite understanding why you would change so much, Zone of Truth isn't an all powerful ability. People who fail the save know that they're under its effect and can choose not to speak. Even if they choose to speak as long as they don't deliberately lie they're still fine, it's written in the spell description to allow devious minded people to foil the spell.

I'd give the player Detect Thoughts, Hold Person or maybe even Suggestion, since you're going to take away one toy I'd like it for him to have a nicer one.

Even better, give him Healing Spirit.

[Paladinatheart]

I would have chosen something else, although if the player likes it then that's fine.

Zone of truth let's the character do something they couldn't and gives a bit more of a role out of combat. Prayer of healing is also out of combat but a paladin already has a bunch of healing options.

I would look to other divination spells to fill the gap. These will help broaden the character options back to what they normally would be.

The player chose it not only because it is like a "mass" healing spell (where allies with in 30ft heal 2d8 + Ability Mod) but also that the spell is instantaneous for the duration. This was important because most of the Paladin Spells, apart from Cure Wounds (which requires Touch), require Concentration. In Dnd 5e, if you cast a spell that requires concentration and then try to cast another spell with concentration then the previous spell "fizzels out". However, you can cast a spell that requires concentration and there are no consequences to cast a second spell that doesnt require concentration (such as an instantaneous spell). So it has its practical purposes and the player was fairly clever to point this out.

This is not a game changer spell, since its use is restricted to one time use before the next rest. However, when I run battles the players are usually not next to each other for the Paladin to tap them on the shoulder to heal them because they are usually getting caught in traps or fending off minions or paralyzed by spells/effects while trying to fight some big bad boss creature. This gives the Paladin one last trick up his sleeve before there is a TPK (cause my party doesnt allways think things through.:smallsmile:

[DarkKnightJin]

This is not a game changer spell, since its use is restricted to one time use before the next rest. However, when I run battles the players are usually not next to each other for the Paladin to tap them on the shoulder to heal them because they are usually getting caught in traps or fending off minions or paralyzed by spells/effects while trying to fight some big bad boss creature. This gives the Paladin one last trick up his sleeve before there is a TPK (cause my party doesnt allways think things through.:smallsmile:

Domain Spells are not limited to 1 time per long rest, as you seem to think. They are added spells, from any spell list (just look at Ancients and Vengeance's Domain Spells), that are always prepared.

As for the '1 last trick up their sleeve' bit..
Take a real hard look at Prayer of Healing's casting time. I'm sure he'd prefer to walk over to an ally and touch them with Cure Wounds. Is a LOT quicker.

As for Zone of Truth.. I don't think it's the gamebreaker you think it is.
If it was not a 2nd level spell, meaning it's a resource actively being drained, and taking away 3d8 of extra Divine Smite damage for that in-game day.. Then I might be able to see.
But it's a 2nd level spell slot being spent, and they're not even guaranteed to fail the save.

I honestly think that you're making a mountain out of a molehill with the spell.
But that's just me. If you truly don't like the spell, say that it doesn't sit in their repertoire.
Just don't go and use it against them at some point, either.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The player chose it not only because it is like a "mass" healing spell (where allies with in 30ft heal 2d8 + Ability Mod) but also that the spell is instantaneous for the duration. This was important because most of the Paladin Spells, apart from Cure Wounds (which requires Touch), require Concentration. In Dnd 5e, if you cast a spell that requires concentration and then try to cast another spell with concentration then the previous spell "fizzels out". However, you can cast a spell that requires concentration and there are no consequences to cast a second spell that doesnt require concentration (such as an instantaneous spell). So it has its practical purposes and the player was fairly clever to point this out.

This is not a game changer spell, since its use is restricted to one time use before the next rest. However, when I run battles the players are usually not next to each other for the Paladin to tap them on the shoulder to heal them because they are usually getting caught in traps or fending off minions or paralyzed by spells/effects while trying to fight some big bad boss creature. This gives the Paladin one last trick up his sleeve before there is a TPK (cause my party doesnt allways think things through.:smallsmile:

Prayer of Healing isn't a concentration spell and takes 10 minutes to cast, your Paladin is not casting it in combat unless he wants his party to assuredly die. The duration being instantaneous only means that once the casting is complete the healing magic can't be dispelled by an effect or delayed, it happens as soon as the casting is complete without fail.

Concentration isn't a bad thing, a lot of Paladin spells require it because they're powerful spells. Bless, Aura of Vitality and Beacon of Hope are some notable examples of particularly powerful spells. It's also not that big of an issue with concentration because a Paladins best use of spell slots is usually using Divine Smite, which also doesn't count as actually casting a spell for the purpose of concentration.

Again, I'm wondering if you house ruled Oath Spells are just don't understand the mechanic.

I'm thinking you should stick with minimal amounts of house rules and get a pretty firm grasp on how the game runs in it's natural state, it's easy to lose track of things if you change too much.

[Paladinatheart]

Prayer of Healing isn't a concentration spell and takes 10 minutes to cast, your Paladin is not casting it in combat unless he wants his party to assuredly die. The duration being instantaneous only means that once the casting is complete the healing magic can't be dispelled by an effect or delayed, it happens as soon as the casting is complete without fail.

Concentration isn't a bad thing, a lot of Paladin spells require it because they're powerful spells. Bless, Aura of Vitality and Beacon of Hope are some notable examples of particularly powerful spells. It's also not that big of an issue with concentration because a Paladins best use of spell slots is usually using Divine Smite, which also doesn't count as actually casting a spell for the purpose of concentration.

Again, I'm wondering if you house ruled Oath Spells are just don't understand the mechanic.

I'm thinking you should stick with minimal amounts of house rules and get a pretty firm grasp on how the game runs in it's natural state, it's easy to lose track of things if you change too much.

Well part of the problem is that I am new to 5e since I have been DMing the last 8 years 3.5, so I still have to familiarize myself with everything. It also doesnt help that none of my current players have any experience playing Dnd or other roleplaying games. That is the reason why I am on this forum...:smallcool:

I think the problem is with the mechanics, for instance I understood that the Oath spells are in addition to the spell list but I falsely mistook the notion that I could cast them once with out using a spell slot (as if it were a separate spell list...do you understand what "wrong thinking"?) Well this clarifys thing a bit. I didnt look at the casting time of Prayer of Healing...silly me.

But on a side note: I feel that Zone of Truth does kind of ruin the social encounters, because I try to do a balance out combat with noncombat encounters. If I do a "who dunn it" scenario where they have to play detectives it kind of botches things up. Also the paladin is kind of the forced healer and though they have potions they somehow (since they are new to this) for this fact.

They play it like WOW, since the Druid in the party played WOW, he is the tank, the paladin is the healer, and the monk is kind of the side/suport damage. Though I think WOW is different from DnD, it is not my job to tell the players how to play. From my experience I they should learn from their mistakes and I spend a great deal of time trying to keep them from metagaming. So the paladin is looking for quick healing spells that he can cast from a distance to keep the party on its feet. Though the Druid when in Wild Shape has the ability to heal himself, he expends his spells slots friviously...jada jada...you can imagine how things go.

[Paladinatheart]

That's not how it works, is that another house rule you're running? Oath Spells are an addition to your spell list, spells that are always prepared and not a separate thing. Your player would be able to cast it twice because at 5th level he has two 2nd level slots.

I'm not quite understanding why you would change so much, Zone of Truth isn't an all powerful ability. People who fail the save know that they're under its effect and can choose not to speak. Even if they choose to speak as long as they don't deliberately lie they're still fine, it's written in the spell description to allow devious minded people to foil the spell.

I'd give the player Detect Thoughts, Hold Person or maybe even Suggestion, since you're going to take away one toy I'd like it for him to have a nicer one.

Even better, give him Healing Spirit.

I misunderstood the mechanics, after reading through these posts I got it now. I like your suggestion with Healing Spirit, I will recommend it to the Paladin.:smallsmile:

[T.G. Oskar]

Warding Bond.

I can't stress it any further: WotC dropped the ball by taking out 5e's equivalent of Shield Other and giving it exclusively to the Cleric, who can't take as much advantage from it. Relegating that spell to ONE subclass doesn't cut it. Warding Bond should have been a Paladin 2nd level spell, not limited to an Oath spell.

So, if I'm gonna recommend switching a spell for a class that's meant to be your knight-errant, your protector against the forces of Evil, might as well make it Warding Bond. Being able to protect one ally from a distance while creating a chokepoint, or halting the advance of the strongest enemies, or even just aiding your DPS to kill the enemy faster, is a very solid use of a 2nd level slot AND something that'll make any Paladin worth its salt.

@Healing Spirit recommendation: ...eh, it feels like it's giving the Paladin a BIT too much to do. I mean - the Oath of Devotion has its share of healing spells, but that spell's just too powerful, or at least way too useful.

[ProsecutorGodot]

@Healing Spirit recommendation: ...eh, it feels like it's giving the Paladin a BIT too much to do. I mean - the Oath of Devotion has its share of healing spells, but that spell's just too powerful, or at least way too useful.

It was more or less sarcasm because I don't feel the Paladin should be losing his spells to begin with. I do, to a certain extent, believe that the Paladin should be given better compensation for losing a spell they wanted to use.

In this case healing spirit doesn't accomplish what the player wants anyway as its use in combat is "balanced" compared to its use outside of combat. There isn't really a 2nd level spell that fits the combat healing the group seems to want.

[halarin]

Does he dislike giving up slots for cure wounds because it eats up a spell slot and his turn or just because it uses the slot? If part of the reason is because he's missing out on taking an action, you could offer healing word. Personally, I like to offer paladins healing word instead of cure wounds if they are the only source of healing in the party. Lay on hands is touch healing anyway so that's already covered. Healing word keeps the paladin players from regretting not taking a better healing class if they end up as the main source of party healing.

[JackPhoenix]

@Healing Spirit recommendation: ...eh, it feels like it's giving the Paladin a BIT too much to do. I mean - the Oath of Devotion has its share of healing spells, but that spell's just too powerful, or at least way too useful.

There's also the fact that they already have a druid. While he can't cast spells in wildshape (yet), he's perfectly capable of using Healing Spirit before the battle and then move it as needed (though he's risking losing concentration), or for out of combat healing (which is it's strongest use anyway). And he's better at it than the paladin, as he's got the spell for 2 levels already, and will have more slots to use it with for another level.

[Paladinatheart]

Does he dislike giving up slots for cure wounds because it eats up a spell slot and his turn or just because it uses the slot? If part of the reason is because he's missing out on taking an action, you could offer healing word. Personally, I like to offer paladins healing word instead of cure wounds if they are the only source of healing in the party. Lay on hands is touch healing anyway so that's already covered. Healing word keeps the paladin players from regretting not taking a better healing class if they end up as the main source of party healing.

Yeh so the Paladin wanted to be a "the one who buffs people" which he does with Bless, Heroism, Aid, Inspiring Leader (Human 1st level feat) and now at 6th level he has Aura of Protection. The paladin didnt want to be the tank but a protector of sorts so he has the Fighting Style Protection where he can use his shield as a reaction to disadvantage one of the blows the enemy does but he has to be close up. Or when he is not curing or casting spells he instead Help action to distract the enemy. Which he is pratically next to the Druid (in wild form usually Dire Wolf) and can easily heal him with Lay on Hands or Cure wounds. Problem is that the Paladin never does much fighting. He really cant hit (his own fault because he put his highest stats in Cha, Dex, and Con) so his Str 13 (+1) which only gives him +4 bonus on attack rolls. So the only time he really attacks is in a boss battle where he uses Sacred Weapon Channel Divinity so he has a shot of hitting the enemy. So really once in a new moon does he use Divine Smite.

But he is also now the designated healer because the Druid is now the "Tank" (they played WOW and apply this strategy) and their Monk, of course cant heal, but provides additional damage and stealth. So it works but this is their strategy.

[MrStabby]

As DM I suggest you work with your player to help him build the character he wants. If he wants to be a protector rather than a fighter find ways to give him those abilities. See if he wants to trade divine smite for bardic inspiration, extra attack for an "arcane recovery" type ability and so on. Help your players have fun.

Your suggestion on swapping spells is a great start to making a game everyone enjoys but you can go further. Be careful (And if you are not sure ask here, people will be keen to discuss sugfestions) but it sounds like this guy could use a hand realising his character concept.

[Paladinatheart]

As DM I suggest you work with your player to help him build the character he wants. If he wants to be a protector rather than a fighter find ways to give him those abilities. See if he wants to trade divine smite for bardic inspiration, extra attack for an "arcane recovery" type ability and so on. Help your players have fun.

Your suggestion on swapping spells is a great start to making a game everyone enjoys but you can go further. Be careful (And if you are not sure ask here, people will be keen to discuss sugfestions) but it sounds like this guy could use a hand realising his character concept.

Well I like your supporting comment! I have been trying to help the Paladin make the character he wants. He wants to be the one who buffs the other characters with spells and abilities which does work out. But since he is the designated healer now of the group he wanted more healing spells. I suggested him to be a cleric but he insisted on being a Paladin, and since I like paladins a great deal i can understand his reasoning.

Just to give you an idea of how absurd some of the situations are here is a recent encounter with the paladin, the monk, and a warlock (the druid player couldnt come and another person filled in but played as a Warlock). I posted this in a different thread but I thought you would find this entertainingly funny and see what the Paladin's plans are for style of combat game play.

5th Edition Game

DM: ME
Players: Paladin, Warlock, Monk (Just turned level 6)

They are all excited to be level 6 and the paladin is like "hey I have Aura of Protection, that gives you guys a bonus to your saving throws equal to my Charisma modifier (which was +4) if you are within 10 feet of me!" Of course it is great and this paladin really focused on buffing the players more than being a melee unit (Tank, etc). So he works with Aid, Bless, and now has this Aura of Protection to buff up the characters. In addition the Paladin has Inspiring Leader feat.

Of course the players decide now that they want to go to the waste lands to fight a dragon. I tell them they are too weak but they insist. I decide a Red Wyrmling is too weak but a Young Red dragon might do the trick..I drop the HP of it down a few notches and change one or two stats to give the group a fighting chance but that is about it.

Session starts of where the group (to their joyful surprise) encounter a Young Red Dragon with a damaged wing (to explain for decreased HP and so it cant fly to also give them a fighting chance) that has been pinned down by a large boulder. It is out in the open with one or two small lava pits nearby but nothing extraordinary in the environment. They could easily surround the Young Red Dragon but wait the Paladin has a better idea.

The paladin informs the party that with his Aura of Protection that they all get a +4 bonus to their saving throws (and this player tells the others that the Dex Save DC is 15 for a Fire Breath attack...which it isnt because it is 17 but I just tell them to stop metagaming). But the player continues to talk about his last campaign with another group where he and a few others defeated a blue dragon that spewed out Lightening Breath in a straight line, though it requires a Dex save, it will only target one of us. But no worries because with this bonus provided by Aura of Protection we have a better chance of surviving to get close enough to kill the wounded red dragon. Plus, it is already wounded and they just have to finish the job. He convinces the other two party members to follow him a group to benefit from his Aura of Protection.

The monk thinks it over and is like "wow if I am with in 10 feet of this Paladin then my Dex Save with go up to 11, and with Bless I get an additional 1d4 bonus to my saving throw so I practically cant fail the save". Note the Paladin has Dex 10 (+0), so he figures well I can get a bonus to my non existent Dex Save and he tells the group he will buff their HPs. The Warlock also figures well "now my Dex Save goes up to 7 I should be ok along with the 1d4 bonus from Bless spell!" The paladin, as mentioned before has the Leadership feat, so with this and Aid spell each of the group members HP is increased by 15. And thanks to Bless spell their rolls (saving throws, attack rolls) are buffed with 1d4. So they are all excited and ready to move forward.

As you can imagine the whole encounter didnt go as planned.

The young red dragon was not paying attention to the group at first but as the players neared the dragon I had them roll a stealth check: the Warlock and the Monk succeed but the Paladin rolls a natural 1. He practically trips and falls making a huge sound as his armor bangs up against the stones on the ground, that attracts the attention of the young dragon. The players glared at the paladin.
Since the Young Dragon was approached by the group of 3 players all huddled next to each other gladly reaping the bonus of the Aura of Protection granted by the Paladin, they were a prime target for its fire breathing attack. I felt bad for them but, as a responsible DM, I had to play the part of the dragon. Once they came in range I used the Fire Breath, which causes a 30ft Cone of Fire to reach out and catch the entire group. They all roll their Dex Saves but everyone rolls a 1 except for the paladin who rolls a 3 but with no dex modifier his +4 bonus and 1d4 bonus to his saving roll would not have been enough to reach the DC 17 to at least take only half damage.

They look at the paladin contemptibly and with terrified looks watch as I roll 14d6 (instead of the 16d6 cause I was trying to go easy on them) where I roll mostly 5s and 6s and they take 74 damage each. They are all toast!

So as you can imagine, they were all attached to their characters they raised up from Level 2. They looked so somber about their losses and ontop of it they didnt even get a chance to strike at the dragon once. So I told them it was a bad dream they had the night before their march into the wastelands. It was an omen in their dreams telling them not to go there, for now at least.

Since then they keep their distance from each other, no matter how spectacular the Aura of Protection is.