RAW summoned creatures with weapons

[Drache64]

I'm curious what the RAW is for Summoning creatures with weapons on their profile.

1. Can you take a weapon from your summon, and what happens to the weapon when your summon wears off?

2. Can you choose the weapon a summon has?

I took the great Skeletal Summoner feat which allows me to summon a human Skelton. Can I summon it with a bow? A great Sword? Or am I stuck with their default weapon?

RAW doesn't seem to specify, it just says you summon the creature.

[Venger]

I'm curious what the RAW is for Summoning creatures with weapons on their profile.

1. Can you take a weapon from your summon, and what happens to the weapon when your summon wears off?

2. Can you choose the weapon a summon has?

I took the great Skeletal Summoner feat which allows me to summon a human Skelton. Can I summon it with a bow? A great Sword? Or am I stuck with their default weapon?

RAW doesn't seem to specify, it just says you summon the creature.

1 yes, it disappears when they do
2 no

[Drache64]

Thanks! Where is that written?

[Saintheart]

Because the wording of the spell is that the spell summons the creature. As in, the Monster Manual entry of the creature with the gear as listed for that creature. But that gear also disappears at the end of the spell.

The only way you could choose what gear the creature brings with it is if you convince your DM to allow the summoning variant (DMG p. 37) that allows you to summon the same individual creature each time. However, in that case, in order for the equipment to go with the creature, you either have to go to its home plane and hand it to the creature there, or Call it to the Prime Material plane and provide it there. A summoned creature is not fully, entirely on the Material Plane - that's why it disappears when it hits 0 hitpoints and doesn't die.

[Jack_Simth]

Because the wording of the spell is that the spell summons the creature. As in, the Monster Manual entry of the creature with the gear as listed for that creature. But that gear also disappears at the end of the spell.How sure are you of that?

Per the Summoning Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. (emphasis added)

Pathfinder's Wording (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/#TOC-Conjuration-Summoning) is nearly identical:
Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.(Emphasis added)

If I cast Summon Monster VI (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVI.htm) for a Bralani (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bralani.htm), it comes with a +1 Holy Scrimitar and a +1 Holy Composite Longbow (+4 Strength bonus) (presumably plus some number of arrows, but that's not explicitly stated). Summon Monster VI inherits from Summon Monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm), which includes the clause " If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions." (Emphasis added)

It's stupid, but theoretically RAW, that if I cast Summon Monster VI for a Bralani, and ask it to give me both of it's weapons, it will. Once they're no longer in it's hands, when the spell expires, the weapons stick around - because they are summoned right along with the creature, and the spell does not "specifically indicate" that the associated objects go away.

[Saintheart]

It's stupid, but theoretically RAW, that if I cast Summon Monster VI for a Bralani, and ask it to give me both of it's weapons, it will. Once they're no longer in it's hands, when the spell expires, the weapons stick around - because they are summoned right along with the creature, and the spell does not "specifically indicate" that the associated objects go away.

It would certainly explain why the Prime Material Plane is awash in +1 weapons. It's the interplanar trash heap.

EDIT: That aside, Devil's Advocate: when you cast the spell, are you summoning the creature, or are you summoning an actual object? There are spells that do this: Summon Instrument, Summon Spell Component, Summon Weapon, Summon Holy Symbol.

I'd argue that the distinction is made (since the text is addressing the whole summoning subschool, not just summon monster spells) because there's a difference between summoning objects in their own dedicated spells and summoning a creature that happens to be holding its own equipment. To wit: a summoned object doesn't disappear (unless the spell specifically says so), but a summoned creature does, with all the gear it brought with it.

[Jack_Simth]

It would certainly explain why the Prime Material Plane is awash in +1 weapons. It's the interplanar trash heap.Hilarious trick for any caster with an artificer cohort, though. Cast Summon Treasure Monster VI, collect weapons, hand to artificer. Artificer uses retain essence. Rinse and repeat. Then have the artificer craft something.

Edit:
EDIT: That aside, Devil's Advocate: when you cast the spell, are you summoning the creature, or are you summoning an actual object? There are spells that do this: Summon Instrument, Summon Spell Component, Summon Weapon, Summon Holy Symbol.

I'd argue that the distinction is made (since the text is addressing the whole summoning subschool, not just summon monster spells) because there's a difference between summoning objects in their own dedicated spells and summoning a creature that happens to be holding its own equipment. To wit: a summoned object doesn't disappear (unless the spell specifically says so), but a summoned creature does, with all the gear it brought with it.
Don't get me wrong: That's almost certainly the intent. But if the creature comes with the equipment listed in the stat block (which technically is not specified, but is going to be largely assumed), then the equipment is no less summoned than the creature is.

Edit 2:
Although if you want something that explicitly comes with equipment, check out Summon Nature's Ally VII (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyVII.htm) - the table entry includes "with sleep arrows"

[Firest Kathon]

For D&D 3.5, this was answered in the FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a):


What happens to a summoned monster’s equipment when it dies or the spell ends? What if it’s not carrying the equipment any more? What if it’s carrying something new?
When a summoned creature goes away, so does everything it came with. If it’s holding or wearing something it didn’t appear with, that item drops to the ground in the creature’s space after it disappears.

[Calthropstu]

Heh, the pf conjuration school permanent summons could seriously screw with economy... perma summon a bralani. Sell its equipment, wait a week, dismiss summons. Watch gm get annoyed.

[Jack_Simth]

For D&D 3.5, this was answered in the FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a):

Certainly shows intent. Keep in mind, though, that you'll find... shall we say "varying opinions" many of which are strong ... on the validity of the FAQ.