Sunless Citadel... with a goblin player?

[werescythe]

So I just realized I might have a problem. One of my players is playing a goblin (which I am totally fine with), however it just dawned on me that in the Sunless Citadel (the adventure I will be running) part of the story is the conflict between the Kobolds and the Goblins.

In many of the starting rooms it is possible for the characters to join sides with the kobolds, so how should I adjust this situation considering that one of my players is herself a goblin?

[Unoriginal]

So I just realized I might have a problem. One of my players is playing a goblin (which I am totally fine with), however it just dawned on me that in the Sunless Citadel (the adventure I will be running) part of the story is the conflict between the Kobolds and the Goblins.

In many of the starting rooms it is possible for the characters to join sides with the kobolds, so how should I adjust this situation considering that one of my players is herself a goblin?

Not really? Kobolds know that goblins have no issue turning against goblins if it benefits them. They're already willing to ally with other humanoids depending on circumstances, they're not likely to refuse goblin mercenaries on principle.

Beside they should see this goblin isn't from here easily enough.

At worse there would just be a bit more hostile/suspicious, but that's it.

[Whyrocknodie]

Yes, what Unoriginal said. Presumably goblins hail from multiple different cultural backgrounds and regions, so they'd realise straight away that this wasn't one of the local lot.

[Angelmaker]

A simple fix would be to have the goblin branded as traitor, exiling him from goblinhood forever, doomed to take on mercenaries work until the day he/she dies.

Could even work as a backstory. Try to expose the real perpetrators of the crime to be redeemed in goblin society.

[Smitty Wesson]

Having the goblin PC be in any way well dressed would be a good, flavorful way to address it. The goblins in the Citadel are pretty shabby-looking as a rule.

[JellyPooga]

Not really? Kobolds know that goblins have no issue turning against goblins if it benefits them. They're already willing to ally with other humanoids depending on circumstances, they're not likely to refuse goblin mercenaries on principle.

Beside they should see this goblin isn't from here easily enough.

At worse there would just be a bit more hostile/suspicious, but that's it.

I really dislike this kind of dismissal of character traits. Especially ones as significant and obvious as their Race. If we were talking about a black-clad, spikey armoured priest of Bane, brazenly displaying his affiliation, walking into a Church of Pelor, I doubt the reaction would be "oh, you're a PC, so it shouldn't really change the archdeacons reaction too much; he'll just be a bit more suspicious".

As a player who frequently plays...unusual races or character types, I want the stigma. I enjoy the challenge of overcoming any social barriers associated with the character I've chosen to play. If I wanted to play a character that fits in and can fly under the radar, I wouldn't be playing a character that sticks out like a sore thumb.

This is a perfect opportunity for this players character to really play her character to the fullest and capitalise on who she is and what she stands for. Does she "play ball" and ally with the kobolds? Does she try to persuade her companions to join the goblins against the kobold threat to her kin? Does she discover that the goblins inhabiting the Citadel are from a tribe that once wronged her or her tribe? Or were once allies? Does she want to try to take leadership of the tribe there? Or revenge? Does she simply not care? Does she want to try and hide her race for the sake of the mission? There's a wealth of opportunity here that would be a crying shame to ignore because it's inconvenient to try and accomodate it.

My advice to the OP is to put some effort in here. Really look at the adventure; think about how this goblin PC could interact with the natives and how her presence affects the potential relationship with the kobolds. Never forget that not every combat needs to be a fight to the death. Not every monster needs to "shoot on sight" as if every intruder were an alarming and deadly threat. Remind your players of this as well. Building relationships with NPCs is usually more interesting and rewarding than killing them.

One idea for a more radical change to the adventure as written; Switch the roles and location of the kobolds and goblins, with the Goblins being the potential allies to the PC's against the Kobolds who serve the Gulthias tree below.

[Ganymede]

The kobolds will likely be able to tell the difference from some adventurer goblin and Belak's minions. For one, the adventurer goblin likely isn't smeared with manure/fertilizer and covered with plant detritus.

It is kinda like how we humans don't freak out every time we see some rando human walk up even though all murderers and criminals in our world are human.

[Unoriginal]

I really dislike this kind of dismissal of character traits. Especially ones as significant and obvious as their Race.

No trait was dismissed.



If we were talking about a black-clad, spikey armoured priest of Bane, brazenly displaying his affiliation, walking into a Church of Pelor, I doubt the reaction would be "oh, you're a PC, so it shouldn't really change the archdeacons reaction too much; he'll just be a bit more suspicious".

This has nothing to do with them being PCs.

The Kobolds have no specific grudges against goblins as a whole, and they're already willing to ally with their enemies. They'll just check they're not being bamboozled, maybe put a pointy stick next to the goblin's face and say "no funny busines, ok" while making said PC stay away from their living area, but that's it.

Thank you very much for implying I'm unable to RP NPCs.



As a player who frequently plays...unusual races or character types, I want the stigma. I enjoy the challenge of overcoming any social barriers associated with the character I've chosen to play. If I wanted to play a character that fits in and can fly under the radar, I wouldn't be playing a character that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Which would be relevant if this was a situation where there was any social barrier here.

The Kobolds are ALREADY willing to ally with people they consider their mortal enemies. It doesn't matter if they're elves, dragonborns, bugbears or anything like that.

[JellyPooga]

No trait was dismissed.


Not really? [snip]

Beside they should see this goblin isn't from here easily enough.

At worse there would just be a bit more hostile/suspicious, but that's it.

Sounds fairly dismissive of something that could very well be more of an issue than "a little bit suspicious". Why would a kobold be able to tell a goblin from one place from another? To use a real world example, would your average Brit "easily" be able to tell a Spanish man from a Catalonian one without being told? That's within the same species. How about a Russian house cat from an American one? Doesn't sound too easy to me.

To go back to the Spaniard and the Catalonian; let's hypothesise that Catalonia defects from Spain and Britain goes to war with Spain. A Catalonian enters Britain with no paperwork (somehow). Is your average Brit going to be "a little bit suspicious" or are they going to put that Catalonian through the wringer, make wild assumptions and/or actively persecute that Catalonian? What about the British authorities? Are they just going to shrug and brush it off? Try and recruit him in the fight against Spain? Or are they going to keep very close tabs on that person, subject them to interrogaton, maybe, even assume the worst (spy? agent? terrorist?) until proven otherwise? Are they even going to give him a chance to prove himself or just deport him or otherwise remove the problem as soon as physically possible?

Now lets say this Catalonian turns up with a bunch of rag-tag mercs; one's Italian, one's Greek and one's Portugese, they're armed to the teeth, they look dangerous, maybe even fought their way into the country, killing several British citizens along the way and their given agenda is "we were on our way to the (hypothetical) Spanish colony in Ireland to investigate some weird stuff about some tree we heard was going on there".

Sounds totally legit and unworthy of some kind of action or sanction to me :smallannoyed:

[Sigreid]

Shouldn't be an issue as any proper party will eventually kill them all anyway.

Hope its recognized I'm being funny. I crack myself up.😁

[Pyramid Pug]

Sounds fairly dismissive of something that could very well be more of an issue than "a little bit suspicious". Why would a kobold be able to tell a goblin from one place from another? To use a real world example, would your average Brit "easily" be able to tell a Spanish man from a Catalonian one without being told? That's within the same species. How about a Russian house cat from an American one? Doesn't sound too easy to me.

To go back to the Spaniard and the Catalonian; let's hypothesise that Catalonia defects from Spain and Britain goes to war with Spain. A Catalonian enters Britain with no paperwork (somehow). Is your average Brit going to be "a little bit suspicious" or are they going to put that Catalonian through the wringer, make wild assumptions and/or actively persecute that Catalonian? What about the British authorities? Are they just going to shrug and brush it off? Try and recruit him in the fight against Spain? Or are they going to keep very close tabs on that person, subject them to interrogaton, maybe, even assume the worst (spy? agent? terrorist?) until proven otherwise? Are they even going to give him a chance to prove himself or just deport him or otherwise remove the problem as soon as physically possible?

Now lets say this Catalonian turns up with a bunch of rag-tag mercs; one's Italian, one's Greek and one's Portugese, they're armed to the teeth, they look dangerous, maybe even fought their way into the country, killing several British citizens along the way and their given agenda is "we were on our way to the (hypothetical) Spanish colony in Ireland to investigate some weird stuff about some tree we heard was going on there".

Sounds totally legit and unworthy of some kind of action or sanction to me :smallannoyed:

As a Portuguese I find this mental image utterly hilarious. BRB conquering yer British apple pies :smallbiggrin:

[JoeJ]

Sounds fairly dismissive of something that could very well be more of an issue than "a little bit suspicious". Why would a kobold be able to tell a goblin from one place from another? To use a real world example, would your average Brit "easily" be able to tell a Spanish man from a Catalonian one without being told? That's within the same species. How about a Russian house cat from an American one? Doesn't sound too easy to me.

To go back to the Spaniard and the Catalonian; let's hypothesise that Catalonia defects from Spain and Britain goes to war with Spain. A Catalonian enters Britain with no paperwork (somehow). Is your average Brit going to be "a little bit suspicious" or are they going to put that Catalonian through the wringer, make wild assumptions and/or actively persecute that Catalonian? What about the British authorities? Are they just going to shrug and brush it off? Try and recruit him in the fight against Spain? Or are they going to keep very close tabs on that person, subject them to interrogaton, maybe, even assume the worst (spy? agent? terrorist?) until proven otherwise? Are they even going to give him a chance to prove himself or just deport him or otherwise remove the problem as soon as physically possible?

Now lets say this Catalonian turns up with a bunch of rag-tag mercs; one's Italian, one's Greek and one's Portugese, they're armed to the teeth, they look dangerous, maybe even fought their way into the country, killing several British citizens along the way and their given agenda is "we were on our way to the (hypothetical) Spanish colony in Ireland to investigate some weird stuff about some tree we heard was going on there".

Sounds totally legit and unworthy of some kind of action or sanction to me :smallannoyed:

Why do you assume that two random goblins are as alike as a Spaniard and a Catalonian, rather than, say, a Spaniard and a Samoan?

[JellyPooga]

Why do you assume that two random goblins are as alike as a Spaniard and a Catalonian, rather than, say, a Spaniard and a Samoan?

Because D&D "Race" isn't. It's more like "species" or "genus". It was just an analogy. I'll refer you to my comment about cats. If American cats were at war with you (a human), are you going to argue over whether one house cat is from America or Africa, or just assume it's a cat and therefore "the enemy"? Regardless of it's colouration or difference in minor features?

(and yes, assume similar difficulty in communication and difference in culture)

[Unoriginal]

Sounds fairly dismissive of something that could very well be more of an issue than "a little bit suspicious". Why would a kobold be able to tell a goblin from one place from another? To use a real world example, would your average Brit "easily" be able to tell a Spanish man from a Catalonian one without being told? That's within the same species. How about a Russian house cat from an American one? Doesn't sound too easy to me.

To go back to the Spaniard and the Catalonian; let's hypothesise that Catalonia defects from Spain and Britain goes to war with Spain. A Catalonian enters Britain with no paperwork (somehow). Is your average Brit going to be "a little bit suspicious" or are they going to put that Catalonian through the wringer, make wild assumptions and/or actively persecute that Catalonian? What about the British authorities? Are they just going to shrug and brush it off? Try and recruit him in the fight against Spain? Or are they going to keep very close tabs on that person, subject them to interrogaton, maybe, even assume the worst (spy? agent? terrorist?) until proven otherwise? Are they even going to give him a chance to prove himself or just deport him or otherwise remove the problem as soon as physically possible?

Now lets say this Catalonian turns up with a bunch of rag-tag mercs; one's Italian, one's Greek and one's Portugese, they're armed to the teeth, they look dangerous, maybe even fought their way into the country, killing several British citizens along the way and their given agenda is "we were on our way to the (hypothetical) Spanish colony in Ireland to investigate some weird stuff about some tree we heard was going on there".

Sounds totally legit and unworthy of some kind of action or sanction to me :smallannoyed:

The Kobolds are ready -under special circumstances- to ally with a group they usually would try to kill on sight (humanoid intruders).

Why would it matter if one of those person also share a species with another group that they would usually kill on sight (goblin neighbors)?

It's like saying "the Empire would normally shoot rebels and Wookies on sight, but right now the imperial commander is willing to ally with the rebels troops to solve a problem for both of them. However, he'll still have Chewbacca shot on sight."


Why do you assume that two random goblins are as alike as a Spaniard and a Catalonian, rather than, say, a Spaniard and a Samoan?

Also this.

[JellyPooga]

The Kobolds are ready -under special circumstances- to ally with a group they usually would try to kill on sight (humanoid intruders).

Why would it matter if one of those person also share a species with another group that they would usually kill on sight (goblin neighbors)?

because surely the immediate assumption is "oh [expletive], the enemy have brought reinforcements!"

[JoeJ]

Because D&D "Race" isn't. It's more like "species" or "genus". It was just an analogy. I'll refer you to my comment about cats. If American cats were at war with you (a human), are you going to argue over whether one house cat is from America or Africa, or just assume it's a cat and therefore "the enemy"? Regardless of it's colouration or difference in minor features?

(and yes, assume similar difficulty in communication and difference in culture)

The last time I checked, Spaniards and Samoans were the same species. Along with Swedes, Nigerians, Mongolians, and a whole bunch of other physically and culturally distinct peoples.

And if I were actually at war (assuming that cats were somehow capable of going to war in any meaningful way), you'd better believe I'd make a point of knowing which cats were the enemy and which were neutral or even potential allies. It would be dangerously stupid to do anything else. Or, to be slightly less silly, if I were at war with a drow city I wouldn't assume that all elves are my enemy. Or even that all drow are.

[Pyramid Pug]

The last time I checked, Spaniards and Samoans were the same species. Along with Swedes, Nigerians, Mongolians, and a whole bunch of other physically and culturally distinct peoples.

And if I were actually at war (assuming that cats were somehow capable of going to war in any meaningful way), you'd better believe I'd make a point of knowing which cats were the enemy and which were neutral or even potential allies. It would be dangerously stupid to do anything else. Or, to be slightly less silly, if I were at war with a drow city I wouldn't assume that all elves are my enemy. Or even that all drow are.

DO NOT DISMISS THAT POSSIBILITY!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War

[Unoriginal]

If American cats were at war with you (a human), are you going to argue over whether one house cat is from America or Africa, or just assume it's a cat and therefore "the enemy"? Regardless of it's colouration or difference in minor features?

(and yes, assume similar difficulty in communication and difference in culture)

Again, you're ignoring that the kobolds are at war with EVERY SINGLE PC that intrude on their territory (ie, all of them) and that every single PC is *already* the enemy.


The kobolds are only agreeing to a temporary ceasefire due to special circumstances.

[JellyPooga]

The last time I checked, Spaniards and Samoans were the same species. Along with Swedes, Nigerians, Mongolians, and a whole bunch of other physically and culturally distinct peoples.

And if I were actually at war (assuming that cats were somehow capable of going to war in any meaningful way), you'd better believe I'd make a point of knowing which cats were the enemy and which were neutral or even potential allies. It would be dangerously stupid to do anything else. Or, to be slightly less silly, if I were at war with a drow city I wouldn't assume that all elves are my enemy. Or even that all drow are.

As I recall, there is mention that some people, even whole races judge all Elves on the basis that Drow are Elves and therefore no Elves are to be trusted. Dwarves come to mind as commonly being guilty of this. An Elf is an Elf, after all. Many perceive Dragons in a similar light, regardless of the fact that, in the Monster Manual at least, they're colour-coded for your convenience. Racial subdivisions and their cultural differences can not be assumed to be common knowledge. Especially for a small, out of the way colony of kobolds (a race not particularly noted for their tolerance or intellectual pursuits).

It's worth mentioning that we're talking about a society/setting which does not enjoy the freedom of information and ease of communication of our modern era. Mistrust, suspicion and assumption are the norm, not tolerance, information and the benefit of doubt.

@Unoriginal; Kobolds are not "at war" with everyone. They're just paranoid, insular and have a naturally evil nature. There's a world of difference between aggressively deterring intruders because they're in your territory and a protracted conflict over territory with a neighbouring society. Yes, they're willing to accept assistance from outsiders they'd normally bar entry to, but if one of those outsiders appears to be at least in some way affiliated with the society they're actively at war with, I expect a little more than a bit of suspicion. Bear in mind that the adventure in question here was probably not written with Goblin or other monstrous races as PCs in mind. Yes, a Goblin PC could attempt to assure them that he's not affiliated with the other Goblins, citing his difference in appearance and culture as points in his favour, but it'd be a hard sell.

To go back to the Drow, imagine an adventure where the PCs are coming to the aid of a Dwarven citadel currently engaged in a war with the Drow. If one or more of the PCs were Drow themselves, do you imagine anything but censure and constant difficulty for that PC? If I were running that campaign, I'd be hard pushed to find a reason why the Dwarves would let that PC through the gates in the first place, let alone into the presence of any quest-givers (who are typically people with some kind of importance). It's exactly the same deal. The quest-giver in Sunless Citadel is the sole ruler of the Kobold Tribe; only a moron would let a potential assassin into her presence without some kind of safeguard. Only a idiot would grant possible reinforcements through the lines. You'd want to be pretty damned sure the outsiders you're recruiting weren't actually there to assist the enemy and anything that casts doubt on that, like an aggresive entrance to the theatre, or any hint that there may be a common interest (like being the same Race), is going to result in more than just a little suspicion. A lot of suspicion is the least of what I'd expect, if not interrogation, imprisonment or out-and-out violence.

[Ganymede]

This entire thread is merely academic; every PC ever is going to try to be best friends with Meepo.

[Whyrocknodie]

because surely the immediate assumption is "oh [expletive], the enemy have brought reinforcements!"

The original question is how can the existence of a goblin player be made so that it isn't a problem for the scenario. Hence the suggestion that the kobolds don't associate that goblin with their enemy. It's reasonable for the purposes of running the game to assume that the player goblin looks different enough for this scenario, yes?

[JellyPooga]

The original question is how can the existence of a goblin player be made so that it isn't a problem for the scenario. Hence the suggestion that the kobolds don't associate that goblin with their enemy. It's reasonable for the purposes of running the game to assume that the player goblin looks different enough for this scenario, yes?

Personally, I'd switch the roles and location of the Goblins and Kobolds, allying the Kobolds with the Gulthias tree/ Druid on the lower levels and have the Goblins on the upper levels willing to recruit the PCs...treacherously of course (they are goblins after all)!

[Whyrocknodie]

The problems of switching the kobold and goblin factions are threefold. Firstly, the primary motivation of the kobolds was to return their enslaved dragon - a bit harder to justify with goblins but not that big a deal. Secondly, this has been posted in the 5E forum. There is a really, really big difference between 3E kobolds and 5E kobolds. Taking on a whole bunch of them would almost certainly massacre the party... pack tactics. The pain is real.

Thirdly, and most importantly - why make that much work for yourself? Recognising a foreign goblin is the easy fix!

[JellyPooga]

The problems of switching the kobold and goblin factions are threefold. Firstly, the primary motivation of the kobolds was to return their enslaved dragon - a bit harder to justify with goblins but not that big a deal. Secondly, this has been posted in the 5E forum. There is a really, really big difference between 3E kobolds and 5E kobolds. Taking on a whole bunch of them would almost certainly massacre the party... pack tactics. The pain is real.

Thirdly, and most importantly - why make that much work for yourself? Recognising a foreign goblin is the easy fix!

To address these in order;

1) The enslaved dragon is a point of contention, certainly, but by no means unable to work around. Replacing it with a pair or trio of Worgs that the Goblins want back is one option (though, I'll admit, somewhat less satisfactory). Having the Goblins want the PC's to kill or capture the dragon for them is a perfectly viable alternative; a Kobold tribe without a dragon "nuke" is much less of a threat to them than one that has one, after all.

2) Kobolds are Challenge 1/8, Goblins are Challenge 1/4. Read what you will into those ratings, but Goblins are at least as much of a threat as Kobolds; Nimble Escape can easily make melee focused PC's useless due to positioning (Disengage) and ranged/spellcasting PC's useless because you can't shoot things you can't see (Hide). Played right, Goblins can just as easily massacre low-level PC's, in fewer numbers.

3) The easy fix is not always the best fix. Having a Goblin tribe recruit a group of PC's that includes a Goblin among their number simply makes more sense than a Kobold tribe overlooking the presence of that Goblin PC because they look a bit different. Why make more work for yourself? Because it's fun to design/change adventures? Because no adventure is set in stone? Because it might be more entertaining for everyone at the table to actually engage with who and what the PC's are in relation to their adventures rather than relying on handwavium to fudge things in the name of simplicity? The choice to play a Goblin PC is just as significant (if not more so) as the choice to play a Cleric of a particular religion. If a Cleric of Pelor walks into a Temple of Pelor (or, indeed, an opposing religion), or a Guild Thief walks into a Thieves Guild (either that he's a member of or a rival of), you'd want some kind of recognition of that in play. There are few things a GM can do that are worse than ignore their Players' characters and run an adventure like a computer game; it's immersion breaking and, worse, belittles those Players choices as nothing more than mechanical. You don't choose the Criminal Background just for proficiency in Thieves Tools, you don't choose to play a Barbarian just for Rage and you don't choose to play a Goblin only for the adventure to conveniently ignore it outside of the abilities it puts on your character sheet.

[MilkmanDanimal]

This entire thread is merely academic; every PC ever is going to try to be best friends with Meepo.

RIP Meepo 2017, eaten by dragon.

A goblin PC is just as fine in the Sunless Citadel as they would be anywhere else. There will be suspicion and opportunities for roleplaying based on that, and the fact you happen to be underground doesn't change that. I'm playing in a campaign with a goblin Paladin who took combat actions against Hobgoblins to lecture them about the evil of their ways; utterly pointless, utterly hilarious. The DM should just warn the player there are additional expectations that their character will be a focus of any number of encounters, and roll with it.

[spinningdice]

With the caveat that you likely know your players and know what they'll be into better than any of us, I would likely go with a somewhat middling approach. Have the kobolds be more suspicious, perhaps only one hero is allowed to speak to the kobold queen instead of the entire party, or maybe they need to give up their weapons first. Maybe the kobolds arrange for them to stumble into some goblins first, to see if they do fight each other.

This is probably the 'least effort' route that still gives the player's racial choice meaning.

[Theodoxus]

This entire thread is merely academic; every PC ever is going to try to be best friends with Meepo.

Heh, not in the first time I ever played SC. We had a kobold PC who was incensed that Meepo "lost the dragon", and when we were talking to the kobold queen fighting for our lives, the PC straight up slit Meepo's throat for "failing the tribe". We were given free reign for the treachery - yay LE kobolds... but it's definitely false that everyone wants to be his best friend :smallwink:

[JellyPooga]

Heh, not in the first time I ever played SC. We had a kobold PC who was incensed that Meepo "lost the dragon", and when we were talking to the kobold queen fighting for our lives, the PC straight up slit Meepo's throat for "failing the tribe". We were given free reign for the treachery - yay LE kobolds... but it's definitely false that everyone wants to be his best friend :smallwink:

Heh. First time I ran SC, the party Cleric snuck in and crushed Meepos skull with a mace while he was sleeping. Never even got to introduce him! Adventurers :smallsigh:

[NaughtyTiger]

There should be fallout from a player taking a monstrous race. This is explicit in Volo's.
seriously, half orc and tiefling are distrusted. orc, snake folk, goblins, ... are hated.
PCs normally kill these things on sight.

the tension should be do the party and the kobolds trust each other in the interim. anything could mess that up: intimidate instead of persuade, killing a kobold, showing up with an evil swamp gnome...

If you want me to ally with you... don't let me see the goblin scum. or work really hard to convince me that this one goblin is special and not just a 2ft tall murder hobo.