Need help finding a class that can cast and fight normally

[CiceroLelouch]

i've been interested in a spell caster but i also want to be in the front of it hitting things. any suggestions? im already aware of normal clerics.

[Malimar]

What you're looking for is known as a "gish" -- there are an infinitude of gish builds involving a variety of classes (for example, the "sorcadin" -- paladin/sorcerer/some other classes).

The simplest and most straightforward gishes are the duskblade (Player's Handbook II) and the psychic warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook) in 3.5e; and the magus, hunter, warpriest, and skald in PF. A wildshape-focused druid can also gish in much the same sense that a cleric can.

[CiceroLelouch]

Thanks for the info! any other basic/ good gish classes? the player im looking this up for is still kind of new/never played a caster (which is why he wanted a gish)

[Fouredged Sword]

Why does your party need a caster? If they need utility spells like teleport and such, duskblade isn't great. It is more about hitting things with a sword and making them explode than say, casting teleport.

I like wizard 6 /ruthar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / other + spellcasting PRC 7

It can melee well starting at level 10 or so. Your defensive spells become silly and your AC hits 30-40. You can keep 20/20 casting progression.

Another solid gish class is wizard 10 / swiftblade 10. Swiftblades get super haste and basically are hasted at all times. You lose some of your spell levels on the top end. No 9th level spells, but you do get a timestop like effect.

[ngilop]

I would add that a Bard can do it too.

Maybe not as out the box good at fighter than a duskblade, BUT the caster is miles better.

I also think that putting optimized build plans on a 'new to casters' player is a bit much.

Failing that, the cleric and even more so Druid is capable to doing both better than any other class in the game.

[CiceroLelouch]

It has nothing to do with balancing or anything like that. he just wants to play a gish class.

[Necroticplague]

If you want to actually get your casting and your meleeing at the same time*, Paladin is probably one of your better bets. They have access to the absolutely obscene Battle Blessing feat, which makes most spells swift actions, leaving you free to move and stab while you cast. Possibly taking Shielded Casting for the AoO avoidance.

*= as opposed to having to choose to do one or the other (usually poorly), due to action economy limitations

[AnimeTheCat]

A sorcerer with the stalwart sorcerer and battle sorcerer ACFs is a pretty simple fish as well. It uses very few spells and, so long as the game is new magic user friendly, is a good introduction to the subsystem.

[BowStreetRunner]

It has nothing to do with balancing or anything like that. he just wants to play a gish class.
Duskblade is a good intro to gish. It's a very solid class and it's hard to go wrong with it. Simple and straightforward, as Mailimar already said. But plenty of flexibility and options. I'd recommend one of these well before trying to get into something like Paladin/Sorcerer (Sorcadin) or some other complicated gish build. Duskblade is playable without any prestige classes, right out of the box from level 1 straight through.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Most gish builds are really complex and may be a bit much for a newer player. A single-class Druid with Natural Spell could accomplish this without being too complicated.

[CiceroLelouch]

What kind of feats would you recommend for a gish character?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What kind of feats would you recommend for a gish character?

It depends on the build. You'll probably always want Power Attack unless you go with an odd build. If you're multiclassing with a spellcasting class you generally always want Practiced Spellcaster. Most gish builds will have feat prerequisites for the prestige classes you're planning to take.

For a single-class Duskblade, Power Attack and Arcane Strike.

For a Sorcadin build (Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8) you'll want Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Arcane Preparation to be able to cast Luminous Armor, Ancestral Relic if you want to make things super complicated, Extend Spell and Persistent Spell if you go with an Illumian with Naenhoon for your race, plus your prerequisites.

[CiceroLelouch]

If you're using a shield is Power Attack worth it?

[Malimar]

What kind of feats would you recommend for a gish character?
Combat Casting comes to mind for any spellcaster who'll be on the front lines.
Practiced Spellcaster is good for paladin, ranger, or any multiclass gish, but not necessary for single-classed duskblade.
Power attack is good for any meleer wielding a two-handed weapon (which is widely held to be the most effective melee style).
But yeah, depends on the specific build.

[Andor13]

Other options for achieving much the same feel/playstyle as a gish include Tome of Battle (Sword Sage or Crusader) where you have encounter based resources, instead of daily, and the PsiWarrior from Psionics Expanded for a point based casting system.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you're using a shield is Power Attack worth it?
Using a shield in 3.5 is rarely worth it. Are you looking to be a Tank gish? You would do better with a battlefield control build.

[gorfnab]

This handbook may be of some use: The Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook)

[DMVerdandi]

i've been interested in a spell caster but i also want to be in the front of it hitting things. any suggestions? im already aware of normal clerics.

I am going to double up on the Battle sorcerer as a viable foundation.
It really doesn't lose that much compared to a standard sorcerer, still gets 9th level spells, and has medium BAB. Stalwart sorcerer IMO takes away more than what it gives, so It's not really worth it.


One of the magic items worth crafting as a battle sorcerer are rune-staves. They give you an assortment of spells to switch your spells known slots by meditating with them at a given time.

As far as the spells you should get, they should definitely be geared more towards buffing. All of the utility spells/blasty ones can be held by a rune-staff.
Metamagic worth taking is
1. Smiting spell
2.Extend spell
3.Persistent spell

Alternatively, Archivist/Sacred Exorcist
Archivist is a wizardy divine caster, but they have the ability to scribe spells from all divine classes. Natively, they cannot fight THAT well, but once the divine power starts kicking in, they are pretty great.



Finally, Spell to power Erudite 19/Monk 1 with tashalatora & carmindine monk/kung fu genius feats.
Get snap kick, superior unarmed attack and a monk's robe, and you are a BEAST of an unarmed combatant.
Also, has access to psion/wilder list natively, as well as all arcane lists and all discipline lists at 1 power level lower than his highest.
The spell flower spell allows you to hold charges of touch spells in your arms, so it's good if you want to nova something.

Also pick up meta-psionic feats like extend power, quicken power, and persist power [3.0]

[Kelb_Panthera]

Best Gish, level for level, has gotta be either cleric 4/crusader 1/Ruby Knight vindicator 10/ X 5 or paladin 4/crusader 1/RKV 10/ X 5 where X is something that pushes your casting. Sacred exorcist fits.

The former gets more overall magical power but paladin casting with battle blessing is nothing to laugh at and you get solid martial maneuvers either way. Not the least complex Gish build ever but rock solid. I prefer the paladin build, personally.

[Crake]

Using a shield in 3.5 is rarely worth it. Are you looking to be a Tank gish? You would do better with a battlefield control build.

Strongly disagree, however using a heavy shield and a weapon does pose a problem for casters: you lack a free hand to use your somatic components. Thankfully, there's a solution to that problem: the somatic weaponry feat. It does require eating up a feat though, and requires 5 ranks in concentration and spellcraft, so not attainable from level 1. If you want to use a light shield, then just go for a buckler instead, it leaves your hand free as you please.

[Eldariel]

Cleric 20 is basically this in a can. You can add prestige classes but ultimately all you need is the Cleric-chassis. Cleric buffs themselves, casts touch spells on enemies through their attacks should they feel so inclined, cast spells that make enemies fall down, etc.

Other than that, the basic arcane gishes include everything mentioned here.

[mesc]

While not as optimized as some other builds, I have more fun playing as battle bard. As a gish though, it lacks over all spellcasting ability and melee abilities, but makes up for it in other aspects and bardic music. + every battle becomes cooler with music.

[Darrin]

Gish options:


Duskblade 20. Duskblades are simple and straightforward enough for new players and more casual players who don't want to pull out a spreadsheet whenever they cast a spell, but also have enough interesting tactical options that more seasoned or higher-optimization players can still have plenty of fun.
Core Gish = Ranger 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10. Not the sexiest build, but a solid build in a casual Core game (PHB/DMG/MM only) and meets the "Gish Criteria" of BAB +16 and 9th level spells. Ranger is preferable over Fighter because you get more skill points, better skill list, and access to ranger wands. May get frustrated when standing next to a IDDQD Wizard/Cleric/Druid, but will shine in a casual or mostly-mundane party.
Sorcadin = Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. It's a little slow to start out, but can throw down with the planet-smashers in the mid-to-high levels. It helps to have some basic understanding of system mastery to navigate when you should be casting spells and when you should be splitting skulls, but offers a lot of exciting options for even casual players.
Bard 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Sublime Chord 2/JPM +3/Abjurant Champion 5. At low-to-mid levels, offers the flexibility and utility of a bard along with a few ToB maneuvers. Once Sublime Chord kicks in, you're a Sorcerer who sings and occasionally gets his hands dirty in melee.
Tin Can Wizard = Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 2/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK +7. Race has to be dwarf, but you can cast spells in full plate armor.

[Eldariel]

Core Gish = Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10. Not the sexiest build, but a solid build in a casual Core game (PHB/DMG/MM only) and meets the "Gish Criteria" of BAB +16 and 9th level spells. May get frustrated when standing next to a IDKFA Wizard/Cleric/Druid, but will shine in a casual or mostly-mundane
[/LIST]

Here Ranger is almost strictly superior to Fighter. You miss out on proficiencies you can't use and a feat (which you even get back by ignoring PBS-prereq on Rapid Shot at the end - not to mention Core doesn't have many feats worth picking in the first place) and in compensation you get tons of skillpoints and a good list, Ranger Wands and various minor bonuses. Also optionaĺly replace Wizard 2 with either Loremaster 2 or Archmage 2. AM in particular is a bit rough to enter but grants some irreplaceable abilities, particularly Mastery of Shaping and Arcane Reach (shaped AMF is really strong for melee).

[Resileaf]

If you're playing Pathfinder, the Magus class is literally a mage/fighter hybrid that can attack and cast spells at the same time. Worth looking into if you're playing that system.

[Allanimal]

Gish options:


Tin Can Wizard = Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 2/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK +7. Race has to be dwarf, but you can cast spells in full plate armor.



I think Duskblade 1 instead of fighter 1 is a more interesting start to this. Sure you give up a few HP, a bonus feat, and the sweet, sweet fighter skill list, but gain a better will save, some useful spell-likes and INT-based spells, and an improved skill list. It would be cool to work Duskblade 3 into that build to get the arcane channeling, but not sure if it is possible to do that and still get 9th-level wizard casting...

[Ellrin]

I'm going to echo those recommending straight Duskblade. It's a gish in a can already, both mechanically and in flavor. It's hardly the most optimized gish out there, but it sounds like you're looking for something straightforward for a relatively new player, and for gishing, there's really nothing more straightforward in 3.5 than the Duskblade.

If he wants to mix things up later, he can always add a prestige class on top of it—many of the prestige classes mentioned here so far will work well for a Duskblade. But if he's fairly new to the game, and especially if he's new to casting, I'd steer him AWAY from multiclassing, aside from maybe adding a single PrC, right now.