Challenge Rating?

[Trey Bright]

I have to players that are starting off as slaves in an arena. One is a Tebaxi way of the elements monk with primarily fire style attacks and the other is an Aarokora battle master fighter running two rapiers and two weapon fighting style and feat. Both are level 16. Question is: Would a CR 15 monster be to hard of a challenge for them? I know a CR 16 is designed for more then two players, so would dropping one CR make it equal?

[SiCK_Boy]

CR 15 is worth 13 000 XP. The creature is alone (x 1), against a smaller than 3 characters party (multiplier becomes 1.5).

So the encounter is worth 19 500 XP for budgeting purposes.

A deadly encounter for 2 Lvl 16th characters is 14 400 XP. This encounter would thus be deemed deadly, as per the guidelines in the DMG.

The fact that the monster's CR is lower than the character level means that the players should have a good chance to survive, with maybe one of them becoming unconscious.

[Trey Bright]

CR 15 is worth 13 000 XP. The creature is alone (x 1), against a smaller than 3 characters party (multiplier becomes 1.5).

So the encounter is worth 19 500 XP for budgeting purposes.

A deadly encounter for 2 Lvl 16th characters is 14 400 XP. This encounter would thus be deemed deadly, as per the guidelines in the DMG.

The fact that the monster's CR is lower than the character level means that the players should have a good chance to survive, with maybe one of them becoming unconscious.

Gotcha! Thank you! Hmmmmm. Guess I need to go through the DMG again and try and get the CR stuff down. Thank you for the reply :D

[MaxWilson]

I have to players that are starting off as slaves in an arena. One is a Tebaxi way of the elements monk with primarily fire style attacks and the other is an Aarokora battle master fighter running two rapiers and two weapon fighting style and feat. Both are level 16. Question is: Would a CR 15 monster be to hard of a challenge for them? I know a CR 16 is designed for more then two players, so would dropping one CR make it equal?

It really, really depends on the monster. Against most monsters they would be fine, but some monsters will hit their weak points. I suspect a beholder would give them quite a lot of trouble for example, despite being only CR 13, because it will hammer the fighter's saving throws while staying out of melee range of the Tabaxi monk's fists (because it flies). A Purple Worm might kill one of them.

[BLC1975]

It really, really depends on the monster. Against most monsters they would be fine, but some monsters will hit their weak points. I suspect a beholder would give them quite a lot of trouble for example, despite being only CR 13, because it will hammer the fighter's saving throws while staying out of melee range of the Tabaxi monk's fists (because it flies). A Purple Worm might kill one of them.

A Beholder gladiator...that backstory could be awesome!!

[Armored Walrus]

I'll second MaxWilson - make sure you look at the actual monster.

I'll add this, anything with legendary actions and resistances will probably be too much for the two of them. Anything without them will probably be doable, barring some ability that the two PCs have no way to combat.

(of course, give that Aarakocra a bow and no ceiling, and give them an enemy with no ranged attack, and they auto-win)

[darknite]

As others have said, look over the monster and make a judgement call. CR is such a weak indicator of encounter viability.

[ad_hoc]

Keep in mind at levels 11-16 characters are expected to face challenges to entire worlds. At 17+, the multiverse itself.

If you diverge from that model strange things may occur.

[MaxWilson]

I'll second MaxWilson - make sure you look at the actual monster.

I'll add this, anything with legendary actions and resistances will probably be too much for the two of them. Anything without them will probably be doable, barring some ability that the two PCs have no way to combat.

Thinking out loud here...

I kind of think that anything that relies on legendary actions will actually be relatively weak against these PCs, because there's only two of them, so it only gets 2/3 of its normal legendary actions. (It makes no sense, and a given DM may not actually play by those rules, but that's how 5E is written on paper at least.)

For example, I bet they could take a Mummy Lord. Normally the Mummy Lord gets 3/4 of its offensive power from legendary actions, but against only two PCs its usual 4 attacks per round will be reduced to 3 attacks. It tends to be a bit of a glass cannon (pretty good to-hit, huge damage output, good resistances, but "only" 97 HP) so the monk and the battlemaster will chew through its HP before it chews through theirs, especially if the monk stuns it.

I'm not sure they could take a Black Dragon, but that's less about legendary actions than about the monk's potential relative inability(?) to engage effectively with flying opponents. Two Young Black Dragons would probably be about as difficult (maybe moreso) despite being only CR 7 each and having no legendary anything.

[SiCK_Boy]

Thinking out loud here...

I kind of think that anything that relies on legendary actions will actually be relatively weak against these PCs, because there's only two of them, so it only gets 2/3 of its normal legendary actions. (It makes no sense, and a given DM may not actually play by those rules, but that's how 5E is written on paper at least.)

For example, I bet they could take a Mummy Lord. Normally the Mummy Lord gets 3/4 of its offensive power from legendary actions, but against only two PCs its usual 4 attacks per round will be reduced to 3 attacks. It tends to be a bit of a glass cannon (pretty good to-hit, huge damage output, good resistances, but "only" 97 HP) so the monk and the battlemaster will chew through its HP before it chews through theirs, especially if the monk stuns it.

I'm not sure they could take a Black Dragon, but that's less about legendary actions than about the monk's potential relative inability(?) to engage effectively with flying opponents. Two Young Black Dragons would probably be about as difficult (maybe moreso) despite being only CR 7 each and having no legendary anything.

On the other hand, knowing it will only have 2 opportunities to use legendary actions, the monster will make more frequent use of those abilities that require the use of 2 or 3 charges of "legendary action", which he would possibility avoid in favor of the 1 charge abilities against a larger group (to better distribute the pain and keep the entire opposing party on its toes during the whole round).

[Unoriginal]

Thinking out loud here...

I kind of think that anything that relies on legendary actions will actually be relatively weak against these PCs, because there's only two of them, so it only gets 2/3 of its normal legendary actions. (It makes no sense, and a given DM may not actually play by those rules, but that's how 5E is written on paper at least.)

For example, I bet they could take a Mummy Lord. Normally the Mummy Lord gets 3/4 of its offensive power from legendary actions, but against only two PCs its usual 4 attacks per round will be reduced to 3 attacks. It tends to be a bit of a glass cannon (pretty good to-hit, huge damage output, good resistances, but "only" 97 HP) so the monk and the battlemaster will chew through its HP before it chews through theirs, especially if the monk stuns it.

I'm not sure they could take a Black Dragon, but that's less about legendary actions than about the monk's potential relative inability(?) to engage effectively with flying opponents. Two Young Black Dragons would probably be about as difficult (maybe moreso) despite being only CR 7 each and having no legendary anything.

Creatures "rely" on Legendary actions against groups, it doesn't make them weak in a solo fight or in case the group is smaller.

A Mummy Lord may not dish its optimal damage against a small group, but the duo is inherently less threatening to it, due to themselves having less HPs and actions than a bigger group.

So no, those monsters will be fine.

[MaxWilson]

Creatures "rely" on Legendary actions against groups, it doesn't make them weak in a solo fight or in case the group is smaller.

Legendary Actions are included in offensive CR calculations and affect total CR. If a creature is not getting to use its regular amount of legendary actions, it will be weaker than its CR predicts.

[Unoriginal]

Legendary Actions are included in offensive CR calculations and affect total CR. If a creature is not getting to use its regular amount of legendary actions, it will be weaker than its CR predicts.

Which is not a problem, because the smaller group will be significantly and proportionally weaker too.

I haven't made the calculation, but I'd be willing to bet the Mummy Lord's DPR loss if it faces only 2 adventurers is not enough to lower its CR, per DMG calculation.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Which is not a problem, because the smaller group will be significantly and proportionally weaker too.

I haven't made the calculation, but I'd be willing to bet the Mummy Lord's DPR loss if it faces only 2 adventurers is not enough to lower its CR, per DMG calculation.

Especially since it would have to lose 2 offensive CR to drop its overall CR by one, being an average and all.

And all else being equal, one OCR is about 6 DPR.