Booming Blade: Whip + Spell Sniper - or - Rapier + Warcaster

[Antarx]

I'm currently playing a female flying tiefling hexblade lock 1/ lore bard 4 with hex, shield, eldritch blast, vicious mockery and booming blade.

My plan was to be a versatile ranged character (dps with eldritch blast if needed, debuffing with Vicious mockery and cutting words, healing, party face, skills and so on) but our group needs more melee characters, so I was forced to stay in melee.

Our group does not need more dps (we have a crossbow sniper). In fact, most of the time i'm just spamming Vicious mockery to nerf the BBEG, but I want to be competitive at dps.

I always thought that a flying demoness slashing her whip on the faces of the enemies will be a lot of fun, but I can't figure how to make it work. I mean, reach weapons seems to actually nerf your chances of getting an AoO, since they give the enemy more room to move around you without triggering the effect, and the damage is sooooo lame that seems preferably to just spam cantrips all day long.

So, now I have to pick a feat. I was going to choose warcaster, to use sword/shield and booming blade, but now I'm wondering if may be better to pick spell sniper and get advantage of the extra reach with booming blade (and also get green flame blade cantrip for free for extra fun).

- With warcaster I can use booming blade as a AoO, but it also wastes my reaction (cutting words / healing word most of the time)
- With spell sniper and whip I will do 2 points less damage on average, but probably procs the extra damage more often and can be used at a safe distance or even flying above the enemy.

Any ideas? Is the whip in particular as useless as it seems? Am I missing something vital for the build?

[CTurbo]

Booming Blade + Spell Sniper + Whip is a strong combo. That's probably what I would do in your shoes. Or take +2 to Cha

[Trickshaw]

- With warcaster I can use booming blade as a AoO, but it also wastes my reaction (cutting words / healing word most of the time)

How are you managing Healing Word as a reaction?

[Arkhios]

How are you managing Healing Word as a reaction?

Yeah...

Bonus Action ≠ Reaction.

[Antarx]

Sorry, I made a cheat sheet to manage action economy, but I wrote healing word as a reaction, and I keep confusing it every time I check the sheet, (note to self: Make a new cheat sheet)
"Shield" is the other reaction I cast.

Anyway, the maths doesn't seem to show any real improvement in damage with a whip + booming blade + hex against simply spamming eldrith blast with hex

* EB + HEX = 2d10+2d6=18 hp on average
* Whip + BB+ Hex (+Spell Sniper) = 1d4+4 (char) +1d8 + 1d6 + (2d8 if target moves) = 14.5hp, or 23.5 if the target moves
Average damage on a AoO is just 6hp on average, and the whip makes harder to trigger an AoO.
* Rapier + BB + Hex (+Warcaster) =2d8+4(char) + 1d6 + (2d8 if enemy moves) = 16.5, or 25.5
This options seems to make more AoO than the whip, hitting much harder when triggered.

I keep thinking that must be a way to make the whip viable with a character like this, but I'm failing miserably to find it

[mephnick]

I keep thinking that must be a way to make the whip viable with a character like this, but I'm failing miserably to find it

Not much is going to beat straight EB. Generally for the whip/BB combo you need something extra, like sneak attack, to get full mileage out of it.

[MrStabby]

Another thing I find useful with booming blade is the mobile feat. Firstly the feat is pretty good anyway - speed and ability to avoid opportunity attacks is nice.

With booming blade you can safely retreat from someone you used booming blade on and force them to move to you if they want to attack you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry, I made a cheat sheet to manage action economy, but I wrote healing word as a reaction, and I keep confusing it every time I check the sheet, (note to self: Make a new cheat sheet)
"Shield" is the other reaction I cast.

Anyway, the maths doesn't seem to show any real improvement in damage with a whip + booming blade + hex against simply spamming eldrith blast with hex

* EB + HEX = 2d10+2d6=18 hp on average
* Whip + BB+ Hex (+Spell Sniper) = 1d4+4 (char) +1d8 + 1d6 + (2d8 if target moves) = 14.5hp, or 23.5 if the target moves
Average damage on a AoO is just 6hp on average, and the whip makes harder to trigger an AoO.
* Rapier + BB + Hex (+Warcaster) =2d8+4(char) + 1d6 + (2d8 if enemy moves) = 16.5, or 25.5
This options seems to make more AoO than the whip, hitting much harder when triggered.

I keep thinking that must be a way to make the whip viable with a character like this, but I'm failing miserably to find it
I mean, without Hex your blast will do 2d10 (11 avg) while a Booming Blade + Whip will deal d4+d8+4, +2d8 if they move (11 or 20 avg). It's a marginally better non-resource-consuming attack, at least.

[KeilFX]

Another thing I find useful with booming blade is the mobile feat. Firstly the feat is pretty good anyway - speed and ability to avoid opportunity attacks is nice.

With booming blade you can safely retreat from someone you used booming blade on and force them to move to you if they want to attack you.

On top of this, 2 levels of Rogue would give you Sneak attack *and Cunning Action*, allowing you to bonus action Dash (on top of added speed from Mobile), making it very likely you can dash, move 40ft up, swing w/ booming blade, then move 40ft away. Other bonus action dash options include Monk, Rogue, and College of Satire Bard (Tumbling).

[Sinon]

You said that you "group needs more melee characters." (Emphasis mine)

May I ask about the other melee character or characters?

The reason why is because while Greenflame Blade is about damage, Booming Blade is about control.

You can use it to force the opponent to make a choice - stay put and miss out on an action, maybe take a less optimal action, or move and take damage.

If you are partnered with other mobile, hit-and-run types like a monk or a rogue, BB works well in this regard. Everyone does the hit-and-run, and the bad guy has to seriously consider not chasing after anyone.

Alternatively, you may be allied with a BDF type, heavily armored and hard to kill, but armed with a giant blade; formidable, but slow; dangerous, but vulnerable to precisely the same sort of tactics you use.

In this case, the possibility of damage triggered by movement inclines the bad guy to remain within reach of your BDF using a (melee) attack against his plate mail instead of charging or using a ranged weapon against the party crossbow sniper, or worse, you.

If you have the right partner or partners, Booming Blade + Whip makes you a better controller, consistent with some of your other choices (like the debuffing).

And, come on - a flying, smack-talking demoness slashing and blasting her way across the battlefield with a whip of thunder? That's cool.

[Lunali]

Check with your DM first, but you could also use both weapons to get AoO whenever the enemy leaves either range.

[charlesfro]

Or delay that ASI and take one more Hexblade level for invocations; significantly bumping up your EB damage and picking up a control rider for EB like Repelling Blast or Lance of Lethargy, which may give you as much mileage as Booming Blade without sacrificing your shield's bonus to AC or +2 Charisma ASI the next level.

[Antarx]

I'm afraid that the whip is a trap, much the same as TWF was in 3.5 for rangers... I mean, I have to invest a lot of resources to make competitive this concept, when I can just stick to eldritch blast and do the same damage (and use situationally BB in some cases, or just for boredom)

My resources are limited. 20 character levels, a few spells slots, some spells know, and a small number or feats/ability scores upgrades.

It's really worth the spell sniper feat? On the other hand, I can just increase my Charisma to 20, gaining +1 to attack and damage, +1 to spells DC, and more important, more chances to find someone who want to warm my bed in the cold nights at the inn.:smallsmile:

Now seriously, seems that the best option is just get a +2 charisma, and pick warlock 2 next level (agonizing and repelling blast), or pick warcaster now, just because it also allow me to cast some variety of spells as an AoO and stick to bard to keep the character as close as full caster as possible.

Answering Sinon, my group has a an evocation elf wizard (friends don't let friend specialse in evocation... but I failed at saving him), a crossbow sharpshooter multiclass ranger, a cleric that comes to the table when he can, a rogue halfling that spends most of the combat in a hit-and-hide game, and a human paladin who is always crying because he feels alone in the middle of the critters


By the way, I'm not sure why BB is about control and GFB is about damage. Both cantrips deal extra damage to attacks, and, under correct tactical circumstances, even more damage.
I prefer GFB because the extra damage triggers more often, and because it gets bonus from high charisma, but I don't think that you can use GFB in AoO with warcaster, because you can only choose spells with a single target.

[Antarx]

Missed these post while I was writting, sorry


Check with your DM first, but you could also use both weapons to get AoO whenever the enemy leaves either range.

That's one of the parts that I hate from 5ed: All the rules are deliberately confusing and "at DM discretion"
The threaten area is The character area OR the weapon area? Because in the second case, I can threaten the 5' area with my unarmed attacks, and trigger AoO when the enemy moves to the 10' zone.
I don't have that area of the rules clear


Or delay that ASI and take one more Hexblade level for invocations; significantly bumping up your EB damage and picking up a control rider for EB like Repelling Blast or Lance of Lethargy, which may give you as much mileage as Booming Blade without sacrificing your shield's bonus to AC or +2 Charisma ASI the next level.

I already took bard 4 in the last sesion, so I can't change that part. I still have to decide what to do with the feat/ASI.
But otherwise, I think that you are right, and warlock 2 is the best option hands down.

[CTurbo]

Go with +2 to Cha


I have seen the Spell Sniper/Booming Blade/Whip in person and it always seemed to trigger the extra movement damage far more often than normal, but obviously, a Rapier + Mobile can almost pull of the same thing and has a larger damage die. The Whip is safer though as you never have to get within 10ft.

I've seen Polearm Master + Spell Sniper + War Caster + Booming Blade in action too and it's pretty awesome lol


About Eldritch Blast, it's VERY effective but also VERY boring after a while.

[Sinon]

By the way, I'm not sure why BB is about control and GFB is about damage. Both cantrips deal extra damage to attacks, and, under correct tactical circumstances, even more damage.
I prefer GFB because the extra damage triggers more often, and because it gets bonus from high charisma, but I don't think that you can use GFB in AoO with warcaster, because you can only choose spells with a single target.
Both do damage, and I should make it clear - killing is the ultimate control. But the reason why friends don't let friends specialize in evocation is because when the fabric of reality is yours to control, mere damage is the option of the obtuse.

But BB triggers off of movement, which (by and large) is a choice. When you attach damage to one of your opponent's choices, you influence his choices. That's what I mean by soft control.

GFB can do this as well, forcing a group of opponents to spread out. It's is just that, which some exceptions, I usually don't need them spread out. Your evoker probably doesn't want that either.

Addressing your argument: there are costs for going this way, but your proposal was this or rapier + Warcaster. That strategy means you are going to stand toe-to-toe in melee, relying on your shield and your Shield spell to keep you on this side of the dirt. I don't know that this is going to work that well. Your AC and hp are never going to be good enough. It also fails to synergies with what is your greatest strength, flight.

Now, as a flying warlock you can certainly use EB, on which you can use the hard control of Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy, and Grasp of Hadar to improve the options for both your rogue and your paladin while doing reasonable damage in your own right. And I ALWAYS take the stat increase up to 20. Always.

That is probably the strongest way to go, but just so you know: after he smites into smithereens a foe whom you pushed into an untenable position and then slowed and with your EB, your paladin is still going to whine that he was all alone.

Controllers never get the credit we deserve.

[Sinon]

About Eldritch Blast, it's VERY effective but also VERY boring after a while.

IMHO - Hurting bad guys has never bored me.

Even if it could, it is no less boring to use EB than to make an attack with a sword or shoot an arrow every round, yet there seem to be lots of fighters and rangers out there.

EB has control options (v.s.), which can be a set of tactical considerations every round, and with multiple blasts, potentially against multiple targets, that's entertainment.

[MrStabby]

IMHO - Hurting bad guys has never bored me.

Even if it could, it is no less boring to use EB than to make an attack with a sword or shoot an arrow every round, yet there seem to be lots of fighters and rangers out there.

EB has control options (v.s.), which can be a set of tactical considerations every round, and with multiple blasts, potentially against multiple targets, that's entertainment.

Eh, I would say it is as boring as a simple attack each round. This is why I prefer my fighters to be battlemaster rather than champions - you can chose for an attack to be more than an attack. Likewise with monks, paladins and to a lesser extent rangers. Same thing each turn is boring, same thing but with different riders, shoves, grapples and strategic positioning to get attacks of opportunity is pretty fun.

[Antarx]

Finally I'm going to pick a ASI to improve charisma to 20. That nets me +1 to hit and damage with my hexblade weapon and improves skills and spells DC. It's probably the best option.

I'll probably pick warlock 2 next on the next level, for the invocations. That solves the damage problem.



As a side note, I just noticed that I can use a lance as hexblade weapon. It doesn't have the two-handed property (even if it need two hands to use when not mounted) It's not is heavy either, so is eligible.

It has 1d12 damage and reach. Even if that gives you disadvantage at 5', I can simply attack from a safe 10' casting booming blade and continue moving /flying. I can't use a shield unless I'm also mounted, but the fact that you need two hands for attack with it, but not to hold it means that I can cast spells freely, or even draw another 1-handed weapon for free if needed (and just drop it latter)
Anyway, I was planning to pick "find steed" in a few levels for mounted combat.