Fuel for dwarven forges? Where does it come from?

[Magzimum]

I run a campaign in Faerun, and the players are about to get to a dwarven city. The dwarves are famous for their mines and their desire for minerals and precious metals. I seem to be able to find less information about what they do with this, but I would assume that they have their own forges and smiths to make metals, which are then turned into weapons, armor and tools.

I would assume that a large dwarven mining colony needs quite large amounts of fuel for its forges. Where does the fuel come from for these forges according to you? If it comes from outside, do the dwarves get it themselves (i.e. independently) or do they trade?

[Unoriginal]

I run a campaign in Faerun, and the players are about to get to a dwarven city. The dwarves are famous for their mines and their desire for minerals and precious metals. I seem to be able to find less information about what they do with this, but I would assume that they have their own forges and smiths to make metals, which are then turned into weapons, armor and tools.

You have troubles finding info on what the greatest crafters of the Material Plane (aside from the Fire Giants,who are equals), whose main deity and creator is Moradin god of smithing, do with metal? I'm having troubles understanding that.

Also, D&D Dwarves are far more interested in a well-manufactured item showing the mastery of the creator than in raw minerals and precious metals. Though they would be proud of finding the ores and managing a good mining operation, as it shows the skills of the miners involved.



I would assume that a large dwarven mining colony needs quite large amounts of fuel for its forges. Where does the fuel come from for these forges according to you?

Coal, wood and lava are old favorite. Maybe some more exotic things can be used, like fire-producing beasts, elemental nods or portals to the Plane of Fire.




If it comes from outside, do the dwarves get it themselves (i.e. independently) or do they trade?

Depends of the city. Those who can and have to trade, do, those who don't need it or can't don't.

[Spore]

E.g. Gauntlgrym is powered by a primordial fire elemental.

[Magzimum]

You have troubles finding info on what the greatest crafters of the Material Plane (aside from the Fire Giants,who are equals), whose main deity and creator is Moradin god of smithing, do with metal?
Thanks for the sarcasm :smallwink:
Plenty info on the great items they craft. Not so much on the economics of the fuels for the forges.

I'd be interested if you know of a link that describes a dwarven coal mine (I'm assuming in Faerun it is found in layers like on Earth, and not in little pockets right next to the gold and adamantine, like in Minecraft).


E.g. Gauntlgrym is powered by a primordial fire elemental.
Cool. Thanks (also to unoriginal) for the info that elementals/primordials were used. I had actually not come across that. Found a link about "Maegera" that gives a little more info (but I cannot post links on the forum, because I am too n00bish).

[Unoriginal]

Thanks for the sarcasm :smallwink:
Plenty info on the great items they craft.


Well it's you who said " but I would assume that they have their own forges and smiths to make metals, which are then turned into weapons, armor and tools."



Not so much on the economics of the fuels for the forges.

You probably shouldn't worry too much about it.



I'd be interested if you know of a link that describes a dwarven coal mine (I'm assuming in Faerun it is found in layers like on Earth, and not in little pockets right next to the gold and adamantine, like in Minecraft).

Sorry, I don't. But Tomb of Annihilation has a dwarven forge powered by lava and a dwarven mine, if you're interested. Though they're not the city-sized kind (more the kind of thing you'd find for a dwarf town).

[Wilko]

I've given some thought to a similar question - where does a mostly subterranean race get grain to make beer? Dwarves are often depicted having a love of beer and ale but you can't farm the grain they need underground...

So i give you the solution i've used in my current setting - Mushrooms.

Dwarves cultivate a variety of useful mushrooms for the purposes of replacing what we normally use grain or wood. They have a particularly hot burning variety which is dried and used as fuel for the forges.

[Magzimum]

I've given some thought to a similar question - where does a mostly subterranean race get grain to make beer? Dwarves are often depicted having a love of beer and ale but you can't farm the grain they need underground...

So i give you the solution i've used in my current setting - Mushrooms.

Dwarves cultivate a variety of useful mushrooms for the purposes of replacing what we normally use grain or wood. They have a particularly hot burning variety which is dried and used as fuel for the forges.
I guess we should at some point stop following the logic and just admit it's a fantasy world... but where do the mushrooms get their food?
In the real world, mushrooms consume decomposing matter such as rotting wood/plants and manure (i.e. poop).

Also, now that I think of it a little longer: Where do the dwarves leave all the stone that they dig out of their tunnels/mines? Shouldn't there be huge piles of loose rock just outside the dwarven cities? Or do they manage to find large caverns in the Underdark which they just fill up with rocks, without care for the local flora/fauna?

Ultimately, my key question is: Are the gates to a dwarven city a super busy place with tons of carts going in and out because dwarves are lacking all kinds of resources, or is it a quiet place because the dwarves are almost entirely self-sufficient? Pictures of dwarven gates suggest the latter: these gates are often depicted as large and ominous, but rather quiet.

In my world, this has not been answered yet, because the players haven't visited the dwarves yet and the DM (me) hasn't made up his mind yet. But for my immersion, I think I tend towards a busy gate with lots of traffic, with dwarves who rely on products from the surface and trade these for high-quality products that only they can make (e.g. forged goods, ales), or products that only they have access to (precious metals, gems).

[Justin Sane]

There's always the option of having a big, solemn Main Gate, where travellers are supposed to enter, and a series of smaller, busier Trade Gates.

[Spiritchaser]

I run a campaign in Faerun, and the players are about to get to a dwarven city. The dwarves are famous for their mines and their desire for minerals and precious metals. I seem to be able to find less information about what they do with this, but I would assume that they have their own forges and smiths to make metals, which are then turned into weapons, armor and tools.

I would assume that a large dwarven mining colony needs quite large amounts of fuel for its forges. Where does the fuel come from for these forges according to you? If it comes from outside, do the dwarves get it themselves (i.e. independently) or do they trade?


I can’t comment on Faerun, but I love the question. In fact, I generated an entire campaign around this issue.

A large emperialistic (though sophisticated, relatively egalitarian ) power discovers coal, in vast quantities in a nearby, independent, magically strong and environmentally conscious, but socially backwards nation.

The dwarven kingdoms have a method of using coal to do many things, but have an exceedingly limited supply.

The invasion by the empire, trade with the dwarves, peace treaties, divine tampering and opportunistic (but actually somewhat well meaning) dragon will take things through to the end of the mid game. After that, some of the arcane wards that the coal mining has disrupted will start letting things in (and the players out)and the players can deal with that from the backdrop of whatever political landscape they’ve created at that point.

[Unoriginal]

I can’t comment on Faerun, but I love the question. In fact, I generated an entire campaign around this issue.

A large emperialistic (though sophisticated, relatively egalitarian ) power discovers coal, in vast quantities in a nearby, independent, magically strong and environmentally conscious, but socially backwards nation.

The dwarven kingdoms have a method of using coal to do many things, but have an exceedingly limited supply.

The invasion by the empire, trade with the dwarves, peace treaties, divine tampering and opportunistic (but actually somewhat well meaning) dragon will take things through to the end of the mid game. After that, some of the arcane wards that the coal mining has disrupted will start letting things in (and the players out)and the players can deal with that from the backdrop of whatever political landscape they’ve created at that point.

D&D: Coal Empire

That gotta be the name.

[Anonymouswizard]

Coal, wood and lava are old favorite. Maybe some more exotic things can be used, like fire-producing beasts, elemental nods or portals to the Plane of Fire.

But if you use the lava to run the forges what will you trap the trading post with?

EDIR: you saw nothing Urist.

[Unoriginal]

But if you use the lava to run the forges what will you to the trading post with?

A word is missing here.

As is the reference by me. Probably Dwarf Fortress.

[Tanarii]

Coal mines seems reasonable.

Even the Underdark apparently has coal aplenty. Which seems weird to me. I don't know how far down coal deposits tend to be, but I wouldn't have thought several miles down. But hey, it's not like I'm a miner or no anything about it. /shrug

Edit: Also, on Krynn the first post-Kal-Thax dwarven fortress was explicitly a magma pool, that was reignited by focused sunbeams once a year. I believe it was called Thoradin.


I guess we should at some point stop following the logic and just admit it's a fantasy world... but where do the mushrooms get their food?
In the real world, mushrooms consume decomposing matter such as rotting wood/plants and manure (i.e. poop).
According to dungeonomics, the answer is gas vents. :smallamused:

[ZorroGames]

Coal mines seems reasonable.

Even the Underdark apparently has coal aplenty. Which seems weird to me. I don't know how far down coal deposits tend to be, but I wouldn't have thought several miles down. But hey, it's not like I'm a miner or no anything about it. /shrug

Edit: Also, on Krynn the first post-Kal-Thax dwarven fortress was explicitly a magma pool, that was reignited by focused sunbeams once a year. I believe it was called Thoradin.


According to dungeonomics, the answer is gas vents. :smallamused:

Gas Vents... will not make a joke, will not make a joke, will not make a joke...

[mgshamster]

Gracklstugh is powered by a Red Dragon hatched from an egg in their care. They convince it that it's in charge while at the see time never letting it leave certain areas. When it gets old enough to recognize the ruse and start thinking about Independence and taking over the city, they slaughter it and hatch a new red dragon, in an endless cycle.

[JackPhoenix]

But if you use the lava to run the forges what will you trap the trading post with?

EDIR: you saw nothing Urist.

There's plenty of magma for everyone. Especially if you make your floodgates from non-magma-safe stone. Lots of !!!FUN!!! for anyone nearby.


I guess we should at some point stop following the logic and just admit it's a fantasy world... but where do the mushrooms get their food?
In the real world, mushrooms consume decomposing matter such as rotting wood/plants and manure (i.e. poop).

In FR, the answer is faerzress, weird magical radiation present in Underdark. Not only fungi, but proper plants (which are better source of nutrients) can live on it.

[VoxRationis]

I guess we should at some point stop following the logic and just admit it's a fantasy world... but where do the mushrooms get their food?
In the real world, mushrooms consume decomposing matter such as rotting wood/plants and manure (i.e. poop).

Also, now that I think of it a little longer: Where do the dwarves leave all the stone that they dig out of their tunnels/mines? Shouldn't there be huge piles of loose rock just outside the dwarven cities? Or do they manage to find large caverns in the Underdark which they just fill up with rocks, without care for the local flora/fauna?

Ultimately, my key question is: Are the gates to a dwarven city a super busy place with tons of carts going in and out because dwarves are lacking all kinds of resources, or is it a quiet place because the dwarves are almost entirely self-sufficient? Pictures of dwarven gates suggest the latter: these gates are often depicted as large and ominous, but rather quiet.

In my world, this has not been answered yet, because the players haven't visited the dwarves yet and the DM (me) hasn't made up his mind yet. But for my immersion, I think I tend towards a busy gate with lots of traffic, with dwarves who rely on products from the surface and trade these for high-quality products that only they can make (e.g. forged goods, ales), or products that only they have access to (precious metals, gems).

One would presume that dwarves represent a significant force in the quarrying industry. They may even drive the price of quarried stone, or at least gravel, to the point where others may not be able to compete; as the dwarves are not producing the stone as a primary business, but as a by-product of their other ventures, they are not beholden to profitability on that venture. This depends on the ease of transportation.

I've had dwarves with vast greenhouses on the surface of the mountains, and other dwarves that carefully manage geothermal vents, in order to secure their food supplies. This makes them fairly self-sufficient. This is very setting dependent-though, and many dwarf cities should probably just live by trade with other societies. With both strong manufacturing and mineral resources sectors, most dwarf kings can probably feel comfortable in their economic security even if they have to import all of their food.

[Sigreid]

There's plenty of magma for everyone. Especially if you make your floodgates from non-magma-safe stone. Lots of !!!FUN!!! for anyone nearby.



In FR, the answer is faerzress, weird magical radiation present in Underdark. Not only fungi, but proper plants (which are better source of nutrients) can live on it.

One would suppose that since there are underground streams, and dwarves have to release themselves they could set up what are essentially hydroponics farms underground. Especially with a little maguc.

[Anonymouswizard]

Gas Vents... will not make a joke, will not make a joke, will not make a joke...

I have far less restraint.

So that's where the Charisma penalty came from!

[Mith]

I take the homebrew approach that Dwarves have racial rituals to shape metal and stone that allows them to cold work or use very little fire for very high efficiency.

Granted, this is because I have Humans arriving on the scene with Steel Weapons.

[LudicSavant]

Lava, despite its reputation, isn't actually hot enough to reach the melting point of steel. (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html)

[Mellack]

You do not need to get metal melting for smithing. You want it softened. That happens at roughly 70% of melting temperature, which seems to put it at about lava temps.

[kebusmaximus]

Also, according to wikipedia, some magma can get hot enough to melt steel; I think it is reasonable to say dwarves could either find such magma or somehow heat up 'regular' magma.

[Anonymouswizard]

Also, according to wikipedia, some magma can get hot enough to melt steel; I think it is reasonable to say dwarves could either find such magma or somehow heat up 'regular' magma.

I thought the magma was our heat source, now we need to heat it up?

**** this, I'm installing a water trap in the trading post instead. If those elves don't like my wooden spears they can die in the carp pond.

[kebusmaximus]

I thought the magma was our heat source, now we need to heat it up?

**** this, I'm installing a water trap in the trading post instead. If those elves don't like my wooden spears they can die in the carp pond.

I was thinking of an earlier suggestion to have the dwarves use mystical forging rituals, but you're right, everything is much easier if you give up and just be a mushroom farmer instead.

[Sigreid]

I thought the magma was our heat source, now we need to heat it up?

**** this, I'm installing a water trap in the trading post instead. If those elves don't like my wooden spears they can die in the carp pond.

Most things that generate heat can get a heck of a lot hotter with a bellows setup.

[VoxRationis]

Most things that generate heat by oxidation, you mean. Magma is just hot by virtue of leftover heat from the formation of the world and the heat generated by radioactive decay of certain minerals. A bellows will cause it to become cooler by virtue of convection.

[Mercurias]

Coal, dried fungus, and poop!

[Tensaru]

You could use natural gas. Call it "Dwarven Smoke" or something like that.
It could also be an export that helps pay for the kingdom, various grains used to make beer, and a reason they can craft airtight and intricate items. Players could have a challenge transporting barrels of this explosive trade good to neighboring areas.

[Knaight]

Coal seems like the obvious answer - it's plentiful, it's easy to use, it historically saw heavy use by the later middle ages. That said liquid or gas phase hydrocarbons could also work. One large oil well covers a lot of forging, as does a decent methane/ethane/propane/butane vent.


I guess we should at some point stop following the logic and just admit it's a fantasy world... but where do the mushrooms get their food?
In the real world, mushrooms consume decomposing matter such as rotting wood/plants and manure (i.e. poop).

The tendency of D&D cave systems to be stupid huge with stupid huge openings works in our favor here - decomposing matter can get waterborne easily enough, the caves generally slope downhill, and this should work out to periodic deluges of sludge going through, accumulating at local low points, and getting eaten by fungi.

This also works out back to the question of forging fuel - dried fungus isn't nearly as good as wood, but it might work.

[Mith]

Peat would also work in part, and could be a part of the giant compost heap that turns organic waste into mushrooms(food), and peat moss. It does a slow burn, but I would think a bellows system could accelerate burn rate and therefore temperature.

[LudicSavant]

If you want to actually forge stuff with lava you're going to need some sort of mechanism to amplify the temperatures even further.

My understanding is that lava is rather less dangerous than its reputation (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf). Which isn't to say that falling into lava isn't a very bad idea (it is, in fact, a very bad idea), but you can't actually melt good iron or steel in it and there are reports of regular, non-epic-fantasy-hero humans falling into it and surviving.

[Chaosmancer]

In 5e, Cave Fishers are a good source of alcohol, their blood is very alcoholic for strange reasons.

But, my Dwarves also use mushrooms a lot, combine with rivers and fish or crustaceans found in underwater systems and caves, we're starting to build something similar to an ecosystem.

Plus, never forget that they need waste disposal, and while the real world cycle of eating mushrooms and pooping in mushroom fields to grow the mushrooms you eat probably would lead to nutrient deficiencies we have two advantages 1) already got fish, cave fishers and cave moss along with whatever other cave creatures you like to supplement both the diet and the farms and 2) dwarves are not human, therefore it is possible they have microbial nutrients they put into the soil which prevents the cycle from reaching zero.


Personally, I think this would lead to a traditional dwarven cuisine that is very bland, so they'd probably pay a lot for spices. Also, on top of likely cornering the markets in stone and metals, dwarves would likely encounter large salt deposits and unless you have a lot of magic, salt is worth its weight in gold. This means larger dwarf cities probably are massive trade hubs, but dwarves aren't entirely dependent on those trade routes to avoid starvation.

[Bohandas]

If you want to actually forge stuff with lava you're going to need some sort of mechanism to amplify the temperatures even further.

My understanding is that lava is rather less dangerous than its reputation (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf). Which isn't to say that falling into lava isn't a very bad idea (it is, in fact, a very bad idea), but you can't actually melt good iron or steel in it and there are reports of regular, non-epic-fantasy-hero humans falling into it and surviving.

It's still be good for tin and copper smithing though, right?

In the case of steel and so forth perhaps both magma and fire could be bypassed in favor of a magical system based on either Heat Metal or [Ghorus Toth's] Metal Melt.


If you want to actually forge stuff with lava you're going to need some sort of mechanism to amplify the temperatures even further.

My understanding is that lava is rather less dangerous than its reputation (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf). Which isn't to say that falling into lava isn't a very bad idea (it is, in fact, a very bad idea), but you can't actually melt good iron or steel in it and there are reports of regular, non-epic-fantasy-hero humans falling into it and surviving.

Plus it's the kind of hazard you can just walk away from. Kilauea has been drooling lava into populated areas for the past month and AFAIK it hasn't killed anybody; it's burned down dozens, even hundreds, of buildings but everyone who's been in them has had ample time to get out. The things that make volcanoes like Vesuvius deadly are the toxic fumes huge explosions and clouds of burning hot ash

[Tanarii]

We're talking about isolated & deep dwelling Dwarves here right? Traditionally that'd be Mountain Dwarves in most settings. Except perversely in Faerun, where the Hill Dwarves (Gold Dwarves) are the isolated underdark dwellers that most people will never encounter.

[Eldan]

Plus it's the kind of hazard you can just walk away from. Kilauea has been drooling lava into populated areas for the past month and AFAIK it hasn't killed anybody; it's burned down dozens, even hundreds, of buildings but everyone who's been in them has had ample time to get out. The things that make volcanoes like Vesuvius deadly are the toxic fumes huge explosions and clouds of burning hot ash

Mostly true, but occasionally, you get a pyroclastic flow that runs at over 700 mph. Though that's not exactly lava.

Another fun fact? When a pyroclastic flow hits water, it can actually shoot across the water on a bed of steam. A bit like a Leydenfrost effect. There's been cases where it landed on neighboring islands.

[Amdy_vill]

I run a campaign in Faerun, and the players are about to get to a dwarven city. The dwarves are famous for their mines and their desire for minerals and precious metals. I seem to be able to find less information about what they do with this, but I would assume that they have their own forges and smiths to make metals, which are then turned into weapons, armor and tools.

I would assume that a large dwarven mining colony needs quite large amounts of fuel for its forges. Where does the fuel come from for these forges according to you? If it comes from outside, do the dwarves get it themselves (i.e. independently) or do they trade?

trade, mine and maybe magic. depends on what you want

[Chaosmancer]

Mostly true, but occasionally, you get a pyroclastic flow that runs at over 700 mph. Though that's not exactly lava.

Another fun fact? When a pyroclastic flow hits water, it can actually shoot across the water on a bed of steam. A bit like a Leydenfrost effect. There's been cases where it landed on neighboring islands.

Well, that gets added to my list of "awesome and terrifying facts I now know"

[Beleriphon]

Lava, despite its reputation, isn't actually hot enough to reach the melting point of steel. (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html)

Don't have to melt steel to forge it, and there are methods to smelt iron and other metals without using a modern industrial blast furnace, they just take longer and can't be done in quite the same quantities. That being said, when you have a place calls the Element Plane of Fire, I feel as though heat related problems are largely not a problem.

[Bohandas]

Yeah, fire elementals!

[PhoenixPhyre]

For most things, my dwarves have a coal-equivalent. They've got ways of making it burn hotter/cleaner, and the mountains they live in are lousy with the stuff.

For special things, they have a few runic forges. These are engraved with the runes for heat and metal--when empowered by the smith and his assistants (which requires a chunk of personal energy, leaving them exhausted after a short time), it gets hot enough to forge anything. It's how they make the really big things. These are hold-overs from the 1st Age, so they're immensely valuable and irreplaceable. It's said that each of the original dwarven cities has one, and that there's a special forge complex somewhere with the secret to making more...

Now I have an adventure idea for dwarves (who had kinda fallen by the wayside).:smallbiggrin:

[Beleriphon]

Now I have an adventure idea for dwarves (who had kinda fallen by the wayside).:smallbiggrin:

Isn't it a dwarf classic to have lost some kind of ancient craft/forge/thing of power in a lost dwarfhold somewhere? Dragon Age did it, the fantastic book series Dwarves did (seriously, if you don't like dwarves go read the books, you'll like dwarves after), Forgotten Realms has at least three, and I'm pretty sure that Middle-earth is implied to have one as well.

[LudicSavant]

Don't have to melt steel to forge it, and there are methods to smelt iron and other metals without using a modern industrial blast furnace, they just take longer and can't be done in quite the same quantities.

Could you elaborate?

Also, here's forging temperatures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging_temperature).

[PhoenixPhyre]

Isn't it a dwarf classic to have lost some kind of ancient craft/forge/thing of power in a lost dwarfhold somewhere? Dragon Age did it, the fantastic book series Dwarves did (seriously, if you don't like dwarves go read the books, you'll like dwarves after), Forgotten Realms has at least three, and I'm pretty sure that Middle-earth is implied to have one as well.

Yeah, but for some reason I haven't had any good dwarf adventure ideas. And I like dwarves. Now I have one that fits the setting and brings in runes (and probably giants).

See, giants and dwarves are related (via an ancient race of rune-wielding Titans). When bad things happened, the dwarves tried to preserve the ability to write a selection of runes, while different giant clans grabbed ("swallowed", merged with, etc.) individual runes. To this day, dwarves take writing very seriously. Forgery or intentionally writing false information down is blasphemy and gets the death penalty (stole this from Terry Pratchet :smalltongue:).

So lost runic Titan forges make all kinds of sense in-universe.