[3.X] Player that won't buy items

[Chronikoce]

This is a new problem for me. I DM a pathfinder campaign with 3.5 content allowed and I currently have a player who refuses to buy items.

He is currently a factotum 8/wizard 4 and has about 10,000gp of wealth in items and 70,000-80,000 gp of unspent wealth at his disposal. He is next to useless in combat and doesn't use the majority of his factotum abilities (mostly just knowledge checks).

Does anyone have any advice? He flat out said he has zero intention of ever buying items because 1) he is unwilling to allot any of his free time to d&d shopping & 2) he feels there is no reason for him to improve his combat ability.

So far I've considered the following
1) ignoring the issue. If he doesn't care that he is useless then I won't press the issue
2) buy items for him and give him a list of what he now has
3) (nuclear option) rebuild his entire character into some kind of bard so at least he can inspire his allies in combat. His only concern is being able to make outrageous knowledge checks and roleplaying so that can be achieved as a bard.

Do you guys and gals have any suggestions for other options or ways to handle this?

If he is on board and option 3 were to be taken, can you suggest a build (bard or otherwise) that can make amazing skill checks and do something in combat to boost allies with zero effort expended on the players part out of game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tell him not to come back next session if he doesn't actually want to interact with the game? If you can't be bothered to learn what your character can do, much less seek ways to improve our expand on that with gear, this game is probably not for you.

I mean, does he have so little free time that it's already allotted to more important things? I could understand that, at least. If he plays -any- kind of CRPG with mechanics more involved than Ocarina of Time, do me a favor; go to your local grocer, buy a fresh, whole fish of whatever kind you like, and also him with it for me. Then cook and eat the fish so as not to be wasteful.

[DeTess]

Have you asked him why he does this? If not, that sounds like a great place to start.

[Climowitz]

As long as he doesn't interfere with sessions let him be, when he becomes am obstacle for other players make him commit to the game or leave.

[RoboEmperor]

Have you asked him why he does this? If not, that sounds like a great place to start.

Obviously he doesn't really give a **** about combat and is playing solely for the knowledge stuff.

Simply put he's not into playing d&d.

If I were the DM I'd give him an ultimatum. Spend the time and effort to learn the game or get lost.

As a player I don't mind deadweights because it just gives me an excuse to build a crazy powerful character, but other players apparently do get significantly annoyed at deadweights.

edit:

As long as he doesn't interfere with sessions let him be, when he becomes am obstacle for other players make him commit to the game or leave.

Actually I change my mind. I agree with this guy.

[Bullet06320]

is he actually disruptive to the game?

what do the other players think?

you cant really force someone to play their character the way you want them to, even if they aren't putting the effort in for whatever reasons of if not using it the best of available options. not everyone is a serious gamer.

give him better appropriate loot drops, less cash

[Chronikoce]

More details

I chatted a bit more and he basically said he doesn't enjoy combat and is there for RP side of things. He said he'd rather leave the game than spend any time out of game to improve his combat abilities.

The situation is a bit strange because he loves to RP and interacts regularly with the party. He enjoys planning and preparing for combat and setting up strategies. He just has zero desire to do the actual combat.

We are in a strange case where I (the DM) live in Japan and the players (all longtime friends) live in America. So nobody really wants him to leave since this is one of the few ways for us all to chat and hangout.

We used to play League of Legends or other PC games together too, but my ping from Japan is too bad for me to join them.

As for his free time. I would say he is not proficient in time allocation. Probably has some sort of circumstance modifier penalizing him too with how bad he is at that...

After chatting with the other players I think we'll just let him be so he can still RP and everyone can be social together. As the DM, I'll just assume zero effective combat contribution from his character going forward.

[DeTess]

Are the other players attached to the combat and crunchy-ness of DnD? If this is a way to meet together socailly first and foremost, maybe take a look at a more free-form system like FATE?

[Chronikoce]

Are the other players attached to the combat and crunchy-ness of DnD? If this is a way to meet together socailly first and foremost, maybe take a look at a more free-form system like FATE?

Yeah, one guy is a big fan of combat, another likes both, and the third enjoys rp more but still likes combat.

The big issue with a system change is comfort level. Two of the guys have played from levels 2-12 another from 4-12 and the last from 5-12 in this campaign so switching systems isn't something they are greatly interested in atm. Maybe in the future though.

[Hal0Badger]

Why don't you show him some items that can be used out of combat? Like rod of ropes. I am pretty sure there can be more expensive stuff in those lines.

[Sian]

Talk to him about vow of poverty? Sure it sucks donkey balls, but its a step up from not getting anythring dor not using your money, and a decent RP-incentive

[BowStreetRunner]

I've been in a game before where someone based their character on a non-combat character they loved in a TV show and that is what they wanted to do, even though it didn't contribute to combat. The DM seemed to adjust to it well enough and the game didn't seem to suffer.

Find out what the player's goals are and then offer him opportunities to further those goals. He wants to be some sort of sage font of knowledge? Okay, see if he is interested in buying up some items to help with that goal.


Using the Tool, Masterwork entry from the Player's Handbook, offer him a library of tomes of Knowledge. One book for each knowledge skill that when perused can offer a +2 circumstance bonus on that specific check.
Likewise, there is a Crystal Mask of Knowledge from Magic Item Compendium for each knowledge skill that offers a +5 Competence bonus on those checks.
How about making a portable library with a Handy Haversack - the exact book you need is right where you need it every time.


Personally, if I were going to run a character like this I would go with an Archivist - making Knowledge checks to give a tangible, useful bonus to the rest of the party through Dark Knowledge would at least be contributing in combat. A two level dip in Loremaster, or a one level dip into Paragnostic Apostle will also give a Lore ability similar to Bardic Knowledge.

[Quertus]

I chatted a bit more and he basically said he doesn't enjoy combat and is there for RP side of things. He said he'd rather leave the game than spend any time out of game to improve his combat abilities.

The situation is a bit strange because he loves to RP and interacts regularly with the party. He enjoys planning and preparing for combat and setting up strategies. He just has zero desire to do the actual combat.

There is nothing strange about this whatsoever. This is completely normal. We don't all game for the same reasons.

Actually, if anything is strange, it's that the player can articulate his desires and preferences so clearly.

IMO, there are several ways to proceed here.

The easiest, of course, is that, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

If the concern is that his character will be the "princess", constantly needing protection, then have the group suggest defensive items for him to buy. Yes, he still won't contribute to combat, but at least the group won't have to babysit him, either. Or, you know, just give him the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd.

If the party is concerned that he is the Load, see if everyone is amenable to having another player / the party choose his gear for him. Alternately, like in the example above, just give him Custom Artifact of Contribution, and call it a day.

[Bohandas]

Vow of Poverty feat maybe (BoED)?

[Chronikoce]

Vow of poverty won't work because he is neutral at best. Maybe give him an item familiar or something that grows in power for his weapon and just not worry about it too much.

I really like the library in a handy haversack idea and that does seem like something he would enjoy. I'll suggest it, thanks.

[Segev]

If he likes the RP side of things...have you considered introducing chances to RP the "shopping?" It need not be overtly "go to the magic item mart, buy stuff." It could be you coming up with ludicrously expensive in-game money sinks that might be of interest. Make his money useful. Give him chances to bribe people, to buy influence, even titles and lands. Put items you think would be good for him up for sale in public places; maybe even make them macguffins for plot.

The dragon has the magical armor required to "prove" the inheritance of a title needed to persuade the King to heed the prophecy the party bears. The dragon's not above selling it for more gold. Oh, and the armor is perfect for a factotum, coincidentally.

Mix and match elements as needed, but...he's got 80,000 gp! Surely there are cool things in-game to spend that on that can make him have more social influence, more literal investment in the lands he visits, or something!

[truemane]

If it were me, I'd offer him the chance to just purchase power-ups and not even worry about them being items. Just let him spend 36,000 gp to get +6 Intelligence. Just let him spend 25,000 to +5 to his saves.

And whatever's left give him AC bonuses. start with his armour, and work your way out. And if that gets boring, start giving him skill check bonuses. And if that gets boring start giving him bonuses in other attributes (even if he doesn't want to engage with combat, everyone can benefit from more HP).

"So, if you're not interested in spending non-game on gaming, and don't want to learn about magic items or other rules, that's cool, so how about we just dump your gold into passive bonuses? I'll even do the math for you and just tell you what to increase."

And then, next session, just tell him, "Your Int is now +6, your AC is +3, your saves are +5. Your knowledge (Thing) is now +10." And so on.

You can just keep upgrading his Int, AC, saves, skill checks, and attributes practically forever and he'll see increases in the things that matter to him (in terms of making knowledge checks and staying alive) and it doesn't have to take anyone's time or energy.

[Mordaedil]

Why is him not shopping a problem, precisely? Because he's got a lot of unused gold? That isn't what I'd consider a problem.

If you want to make it a thing, throw NPC's at them that beseech him on his great fortune to help out by asking him for donations. Armies needing surplus to equip them. Kings demanding tribute or subservience.

Also maybe have your shopkeepers be actual characters rather than lists of inventory that people pick stuff from. We've always played using the same method as Critical Role here, where the supplies are picked by the DM and you have to buy from what is available, but they also dispense useful tidbits of information, ask favors of the players and dispense valuable information.

Put in more libraries and places of magic research into your game. Your player wants to RP seeking knowledge, let him do that.

[Andor13]

There are ways to make his "I chat up NPCs and I know things, that's what I do." approach to the game more functional. Knowledge Devotion from 3.5 for a start. There are several abilities in pathfinder for sharing knowledge with your party in beneficial ways. Maybe offer him a few of those. Could be a custom PRC that grants abilities like the Sensei's Advice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/sensei/) and Cavalier's Tactician ability.

As for shopping, make a disguise check to make it look like something he wants, instead. For example, a patron of the arts seeks his aid (and unspent loot) in refurbishing a decrepit library in town, and afterwards is so grateful they insist he accept some items that their old Uncle Horace had leftover from his adventuring days that were simply cluttering up the wardrobe.

[Chronikoce]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I liked a lot of the ideas that were given and will keep them in mind.

In an effort to reply to the questions that were asked I realized I'd inadvertently written a massive rant regarding the player in question. It has become clear to me that his lack of concern for items and combat isn't the source of my frustration but rather a catalyst for snapping my patience.

As such, I think the proper course of action for me is to sit down and chat with the player regarding his intentions for the game, his social time with our friend group, and ways we can move forward without straining the friendship.

[lylsyly]

Simply put he's not into playing d&d.

If I were the DM I'd give him an ultimatum. Spend the time and effort to learn the game or get lost.

I know you changed your mind but I have a question. Is Dungeons and Dragons really all about combat to you.

Guess what... IT'S A ROLE​ playing game.

[eggynack]

I'm honestly way more confused by the four levels of wizard than by the non-spending of money. I get that factotum 8 is a good cutoff point, but wizard 4 seems pretty close to useless, especially given the fact that factotums already have some limited casting. Double especially because wizards get so few skill points from level. I can't think he's improving his knowledge access overmuch through those levels. What I would advise is helping him rebuild in a way that plays to his desires.

So, start with factotum 8. That's fine, and it provides some combat utility whether he wants it or not. Next, maybe a cloistered cleric dip. That's some classic stuff in general, even better on a knowledge focused dude. He can trade out knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, turning his sky high scores into some face beating capacity, he gets lore for a different kind of knowledge, and you get to toss two domains/devotions on top of all that. Lotsa options there, providing utility and/or combat as needed. You can even have one of the domains be knowledge for double knowledge action. Flavorful and effective.

Next, I'm thinking a marshal dip. If he has any charisma whatsoever, then motivate intelligence will give a small boost to his knowledge and some extra to the rest of the party as well. If you really want to sell it, I'd let him trade out the skill focus for one of the knowledge of his choice. If you do that, you could even skip the motivate intelligence part. Maybe even toss in a second level for a combat oriented aura.

After that, I'm honestly not all that sure. Dipping wizard isn't all that bad, cause you can pick up abrupt jaunt or something. Dragon shaman is fun, but the lack of knowledge on the list is a problem. Alternatively, he could always just take more factotum levels. Two more of those and he gets a new spell level. Spells are good. A lot of his issues could probably be helped out by curating his list a bit.

I think there are two main ideas here. First, your goals and his aren't necessarily diametrically opposed. Second, knowledge devotion is a thing. He should take it regardless of what else he's doing, cause he might not care about hitting things but it's the most fitting feat possible for his build. It has knowledge in the name.

[RoboEmperor]

I know you changed your mind but I have a question. Is Dungeons and Dragons really all about combat to you.

Guess what... IT'S A ROLE​ playing game.

It's both. If you take away combat then there is no point in using the system. I mean a RP group doesn't need mechanics to slay a troll. The "DM" and the player will just describe what each one is doing and end the combat without a single dice roll.

"The troll swipes at you with its club"
"I duck"
....
"I finally pull the rope and trip the troll into the campfire!"
"The troll catches fire and dies"

[Arbane]

I know you changed your mind but I have a question. Is Dungeons and Dragons really all about combat to you.

Guess what... IT'S A ROLE​ playing game.

D&D is a skirmish wargame with some out-of-combat rules slapped on.

[Chronikoce]

I'm honestly way more confused by the four levels of wizard than by the non-spending of money.


He added wizard for the utility spells not combat power. In terms of cleric, not an option. He has trouble deciding what 2 spells to get at a level up. He has no desire to choose from the cleric list for spells to use daily.

After chatting more today he seems to be more willing to look at items once he realized how many items are just weird utility things not combat power boosts. He got pretty excited by phase locking on his bow so that stuff can't escape

[eggynack]

He added wizard for the utility spells not combat power. In terms of cleric, not an option. He has trouble deciding what 2 spells to get at a level up. He has no desire to choose from the cleric list for spells to use daily.
Honestly doesn't have to be a huge deal. Casting is pretty far down on the list of things that makes this dip. Cloistered cleric grants three separate feats/domains, at least one of which is directly pertinent to his character. He could prep the same exact couple of first level cleric spells each day, or even never cast a single spell, and it'd still probably make his character more capable. I don't really see how wizard is supposed to significantly help with utility spells, or why he isn't struggling already with his casting capacity. His 8th level factotum can already cast three spells a day, one of them third level, off of the entirety of the wizard/sorcerer list.

[martixy]

The way you tell it, he seems to be under the impression RP and combat are mutually exclusive or something.

While false, this opens the door for you to hand the character crunch to some of the players who do enjoy that. Including handing over combat/shopping control.

Ask him if he'd be okay if one of the others controlled his character in combat and his gear, while he retained control out of combat.

This is by no means an ideal solution, but it might be a good fit in your particular case.

[Chronikoce]

Yeah, it's definitely a case where he thinks of combat as it's own thing instead of an extension of roleplaying and strategy. Something I can work on with him.

[Peat]

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

It does sound like its somewhat broke in that you're exasperated by his lack of interaction with large portions of the game. I don't know what else is straining your patience, but whatever it is, that's somewhat broken.

It sounds like you've got good communication with him and he's pretty articulate about what he wants, so that's a good start.

Have you talked to the other party members about ways to improve whatever's bugging you? They've got a stake in it too and maybe they can suggest things and ways to focus him more on the game that'd you'd have fun doing.


I know you changed your mind but I have a question. Is Dungeons and Dragons really all about combat to you.

Guess what... IT'S A ROLE​ playing game.

It's a role playing game where all the rules, published scenarios, and cultural expectations are that combat will be a central part of the experience. Central enough that I'm guessing that, yeah, the player isn't into D&D itself all that much, and is playing it just to hang out with their friends.

After all, not every roleplayer is into every RPG.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's an expensive magic item in Dragon #302, retribution armour (140 000 gp). Any time you take melee damage, the damage is divided between you and your attacker. Maybe having such an exotic and interesting way of surviving/contributing to a fight might appeal to your player, even if they're not otherwise taking actions. Make sure to give them some healing magic, too :smallwink:.


(As in, they don't do anything in combat except walk around and examine things, but when they do get attacked, they get to RP wounds appearing on their enemies.)

[ericgrau]

#2, except ask him politely if he would like you to buy items for him. Also get him cool non-combat items for the things he does outside of combat, and perhaps add more similar options. If he really doesn't want to build around fighting, consider items with a built in attack that substitutes in place of his class features. Like ring of the ram.

If he still doesn't want to participate in combat at all, then you have a social problem not a build problem. Though I suppose he doesn't have to be useful to play D&D. Make sure he has enough defensive items to not die in combat at least (plus most foes will see him as less of a target), reduce the CR and move on. He probably would have more fun if he participated more in a large section of the game he's playing, but you can't force someone to have fun.

[Malphegor]

to be honest as someone who isn't into the whole shopping thing as a new player (hoarding my money for spells and pearls of power more than anything. Really need to steal my DM's arcane item compendium), I'd say your best option would be to tease him with items you'd get if you were him.

[thethird]

Why dont you have thieves steal his money. Make It an adventure to recover it. Instead of giving money back give useful loot.

[Luckmann]

Now, apologies if I say things that have already been said - I didn't read through the entirety of the thread, just the OP and then I skimmed.

But as someone that is playing a somewhat pacifistic character (and have, in another game (not D&D) played a full-on pacifist) I just can't fathom the issue here. Not only because this shouldn't really be that big of an issue to you as a DM (I would simply end up thrashing him, but that's me) unless he's being passive-aggressive about sitting in a corner for large amounts of time (because face it, D&D isn't that fast in the combat department), but even moreso because even as a pacifist there's so much to do if someone is a bit inventive, engages with the game, and especially in 3.5/PF there's so many goddamn items that I'd go so far as to call it an inherent weakness of the system.

Even if he has no interest in combat, he could still want to:

Have items that increases his core abilities. These are potentially extremely expensive. Cloaks of Charisma, Circlets of Intelligence, Manuals, etc.
Have utility items that can be used in a pinch, not necessarily in combat but also narratively. Wands of Glitterdust and Grease. Hell, a slotless item (such as a neat tattoo) of Prestidigitation at-will (Command Word) is only 1800. Colour things green, flip through someone's books, pull their pants down.
Invest his fortune(s) in various endeavours, which in themselves can lead to plot hooks that his character would actually cares about.
No but seriously, utility items. You said he's only got about ~10k in items, so it doesn't even sound like he's got the basics like Heward's Handy Haversack and some of the better Bags of Holding. He can still be incredibly useful to the team just by being the one that happens to have two miles of silk rope and a barrel of alchemist's fire. This isn't just a fun slot to fill in a party, it actually fits a Factotum extremely well. Dog Whistles, Caltrops, 10-foot poles, bags of marbles, mirrors, magnifying glasses, inks & quills & parchments, coal & chalk, grappling hooks, hell, 10 grappling hooks. Check, check, check, check and check.
Hell, just an Adamantine Dagger is 3002gp, and it will let him cut through almost anything forever. It's the ultimate skillmonkey's tool. For 32400gp he can get a slotless tattoo on his body which he can use 3 times a day to cast Absorb Weapon, allowing him to hide that knife inside his skin for 5 hours per use (so totally up to 15 hours a day). None of this has anything whatsoever to do with combat - you get caught? Enemies can't find that dagger! There's a locked door in the dungeon? Trapped? Doesn't matter, carve up the rock around it! Can't get that lid off the peanut jar? Adamantine Dagger!
Magic items that boosts skills. Arguably, it doesn't need to be a Ring of <Skill> +5 or +10. If he wants to boost Knowledge Checks, have him invest in books that can give up to +15, no problem! A +15 skill item has a base price of only 22500, and if it's just for knowledge checks, there's a fair argument that it should be a bit cheaper, since it's "only" magical reference books. A Wand of Divine Insight (CL 15) has a price of 22500gp too, and is a straight up +20 to any skill. Hell, an Eternal Wand of Divine Insight (CL 15) would be even slightly cheaper - 21600gp - but would only be able to be used 2/day.
Again, I don't understand your player at all, because there's just so damn many options.

That said, however, the player (and you) should probably examine the motivations for the game and the characters involved. Generally, since D&D is primarily a game about adventuring, and adventuring frequently involves at least a bit of combat, playing characters that have no interest or aptitude in combat is less than perfect. Characters without motivations should be retired and go do whatever suits them.

More worrysome, however, appears to be the player's own reluctance or outright refusal to even engage passively in violent encounters, suggesting deeper issues at the table than the issue of a character's suspect motivations or behaviour. I'm not sure about your relationship to this individual player, but the way you describe it just makes it sound (to me) like he's just going to be disruptive and has some kind of hangup. If that's so, you shouldn't be trying to salvage the situation, you should try to explain to him that this isn't going to be the kind of game he obviously wants to play. It is also possible that the player is using his reluctance of engaging in combat as an excuse for not learning the rules or browsing sources for things that he'll actually want to get, since it takes some time and effort, and some people worry way more about looking foolish or making mistakes when it comes to these sort of things than they should - in which case imparting on him just how many non-combat options he has (many even in combat) will either help resolve this or force him to reveal himself as a lazy good-for-nothing that just can't be bothered, and in the case of the latter you should drop him like last week's take-out.

It is possible, however, that I'm just misreading the situation, and he's simply not sure what to do or how to engage with things, and maybe he's written off most of the items and things as "meh, combat, I suck at that anyway". If that's so, I hope some of the suggestions will help dispel any such notions and get both of you to enjoy the game and, hopefully, make him feel like he can be a useful addition to the party without necessarily being a knuckle-dragger.

[Kaje]

Why are the other party members sharing the gold with him if he's not contributing to encounters?

[Quertus]

More worrysome, however, appears to be the player's own reluctance or outright refusal to even engage passively in violent encounters, suggesting deeper issues at the table than the issue of a character's suspect motivations or behaviour. I'm not sure about your relationship to this individual player, but the way you describe it just makes it sound (to me) like he's just going to be disruptive and has some kind of hangup. If that's so, you shouldn't be trying to salvage the situation, you should try to explain to him that this isn't going to be the kind of game he obviously wants to play. It is also possible that the player is using his reluctance of engaging in combat as an excuse for not learning the rules or browsing sources for things that he'll actually want to get, since it takes some time and effort, and some people worry way more about looking foolish or making mistakes when it comes to these sort of things than they should - in which case imparting on him just how many non-combat options he has (many even in combat) will either help resolve this or force him to reveal himself as a lazy good-for-nothing that just can't be bothered, and in the case of the latter you should drop him like last week's take-out.

So, allow me to express an unusual take on RPG combat.

See, I'm a war gamer. A proper war game is pure Combat as Sport, and runs off the assumption of a fair fight. That, in theory, things are roughly balanced, and each side has a roughly 50/50 chance of success.

If RPGs were played like war games, that would mean that each encounter would have a 50/50 chance of resulting in a TPK! Even if it didn't, even if the party won, they'd still expect to take losses. I'd say 50% casualties for a victory is probably a little on the low side.

With these statistics, a character who survived 10 fights would literally be a one-in-a-million occurrence!

Hopefully, it's easy to see why most combat-heavy RPGs aren't played like war games. RPG combat is a boring, easy-mode snoozefest in comparison.

This is why I often bring characters with lesser combat potential, to let players who actually care about such things have their moment to shine, while I focus on other things that I actually find enjoyable in a game.


That said, however, the player (and you) should probably examine the motivations for the game and the characters involved. Generally, since D&D is primarily a game about adventuring, and adventuring frequently involves at least a bit of combat, playing characters that have no interest or aptitude in combat is less than perfect. Characters without motivations should be retired and go do whatever suits them.

How interesting - a character-focused appeal. Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named, thoroughly agrees with you. Unfortunately, trouble keeps brewing, his friends keep asking for his help, and, really, there's no-one else as qualified to understand arcane theories and save the world as he is, so, unfortunately, duty calls.

[Chronikoce]

Update!

So the player and I chatted. He isn't adverse to items but it seems like it was more of a misunderstanding about the type of items available with the wealth he had accrued.

At low levels he was content to grab a few scrolls or wands here as he needed them. As he continued up in level his mindset stayed the same and he assumed other items were mostly about direct combat power increases (which his character is not concerned with).
After chatting more and finding some cool utility items for him he is more open to hunting for some other near things on his own.

We won't get to play again for another 2 weeks but I'm optimistically going to assume that this won't be an issue and we have come to understand regarding where the miscommunication between us occurred.

[Mordaedil]

No end like a happy ending.