So how much AC do you *need*?

[danielxcutter]

Yes, boosting your AC to dozens of times your class level is horribly inefficient, but no matter what class you are, having only half your class level in AC either isn't exactly much better, especially since every melee brute and their mother - sometimes literally, in fact - tends to have Power Attack. So how much should you get to avoid being chopped apart by mooks with PA and a CR lower than your weapon enhancement in the first round?

[zlefin]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CCxnAb8apicr3fOrSCEFNRwHlzRieMrXm6ld9-uLAFc/edit#gid=0

https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/bench-pressing-character-creation-by-the-numbers/

[Venger]

As you already seem to understand, if you aren't an abjurant champion or similar, who invests heavily in AC to become unhittable, it's not a good investment.

Wear the heaviest armor your character is proficient with (taking asf into consideration of course), get a +1 so you can put armor enchantments on it, and if you have some more money to waste and an empty slot, maybe buy a ring or protection +1. This will probably get you to the high teens or low 20s, depending on your size and dex.

You're better off investing in miss chance through items like cloak of minor displacement. If you aren't a king of smack or similar, you don't want to entirely dump your AC. Monsters' to-hit goes up so much faster than you can boost AC, you can't expect to deflect all of them. However, having a decent ac will prevent monsters from hitting with iteratives after they've gotten you with their primary.

[Geddy2112]

A quick and dirty rule of thumb is
Minimum: 10+level
Average character: 15+level
Tank:20+level

But yes, as said AC is a losing man's game, particularly at higher levels.

[Zaq]

What has been said so far is about right, but I want to add that part of it has to do with the enemies you tend to face.

If you mostly fight “monsters” who are making non-iterative (and therefore relatively accurate) attacks with natural weapons, your AC goal might be different from if you mostly fight “dudes” who are making iterative attacks with weapons. The first attack is still relatively likely to hit because to-hit is easier to raise than AC, but if a moderate investment in AC can give you a reasonable chance of not being hit with the iterative attacks, that can still be a meaningful increase in survivability.

[Mordaedil]

To wit, with my abjurant champion gish, I arrived starting AC of 17, 18 at level 2, 20 at level 4, 23 at level 5, 29 at level 7 when I started Abjurant champion, hitting AC 30 at level 12.

That is without any buffs, but I was also not using Mage Armor as part of my character (just a battle sorcerer with light armor and then battle caster to use mithril full plate) and this is without enchanting anything.

I don't recommend doing this, because the DM will know what you are doing and plan around your ludicrous high AC. It's better if you just observe what a basic cleric can get and try to stay in line with that.

[SangoProduction]

A quick and dirty rule of thumb is
Minimum: 10+level
Average character: 15+level
Tank:20+level

But yes, as said AC is a losing man's game, particularly at higher levels.

That's actually a pretty decent rule of thumb, I'd say. I'd say around level 5-10 is about when this starts breaking down in to 'untenable' situation.

[Deophaun]

Wear the heaviest armor your character is proficient that doesn't impede your movement
You forgot that. Maneuverability > AC. I've seen many tin cans that arrived at the battle after it was over.

[Crichton]

To wit, with my abjurant champion gish, I arrived starting AC of 17, 18 at level 2, 20 at level 4, 23 at level 5, 29 at level 7 when I started Abjurant champion, hitting AC 30 at level 12.

That is without any buffs, but I was also not using Mage Armor as part of my character (just a battle sorcerer with light armor and then battle caster to use mithril full plate) and this is without enchanting anything.

I don't recommend doing this, because the DM will know what you are doing and plan around your ludicrous high AC. It's better if you just observe what a basic cleric can get and try to stay in line with that.



My Rogue3 Swordsage2 had an AC of 23 at 5th level - 5 from DEX(18 plus 2 racial), 4 from mithral chainshirt, 1 from size, 3 from WIS to AC from Swordsage 2. Later got a +1 deflection bonus from a Shadow Cloak, but other than that, no AC from magic items. I did still get hit, but not super often.

[Venger]

You forgot that. Maneuverability > AC. I've seen many tin cans that arrived at the battle after it was over.

No I didn't. It just doesn't matter. Mithral exists, so you can take any heavy down to medium for acp, and then if you care about terrestrial movement speed because you're low enough level that you can't just be flying all the time (or didn't begin play with some method of reliable flight) you can get the boots of striding and springing or similar, which you'd want anyway as a thuggish character.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The expectation of the system is that a PC class character will have an AC of about level+14. If you're significantly (4~5ish points) below that, upgrade something. If you're significantly above that, unless you're a front-line bruiser type, leave it lie for a level two or even consider trading something in.

Don't forget that fighting defensively is a thing.

[CrazyNoob]

Depending on what rules you use for determining to Hit and Critical.

Using standard rules, For the most part any AC above 20 is almost irrelevant since your guaranteed a 5% chance of being hit. Higher AC would mean less likely hood of confirming a crit typically. If something can hit you regardless if your AC is super high, chances of a Crit is that much higher.

Trying to get super high AC is practically pointless as to Hit bonuses from BAB and STR mod escalate far faster than AC will without really optimizing. I would consider negating the opportunity for a hit chance over having higher AC. Blur or mirror image or the likes.

From past experiences having a super AC tends to be more of a problem for the group than anything else. Encounters will go one of a few ways. If the encounter is a Brutish creature it will 1) change target to something more squishy, or 2) Grapple you and beat you when standard AC is meaningless, 3) get a bunch of enemies together to surround you and Flank you or other party members to death.

If the the encounter is more of spell casting fight, the encounter will go 1) brute deals with you, and Spell casting creature targets your TouchAC, your saves (Fort, Ref, Wil).

[Deophaun]

No I didn't. It just doesn't matter. Mithral exists, so you can take any heavy down to medium for acp, and then if you care about terrestrial movement speed because you're low enough level that you can't just be flying all the time (or didn't begin play with some method of reliable flight) you can get the boots of striding and springing or similar, which you'd want anyway as a thuggish character.
Boots of striding and springing and similar work for people who aren't bogged down by medium armor as well. Speed is all relative. If you move 20ft while everyone moves 5, you're fast. If you move 20ft while everyone moves 60, you're slow.

So no, it does matter.

And if you're saying "well, I just do this so my movement speed doesn't enter into it," that would mean the armor isn't impeding your movement, wouldn't it? Tin cans not on mounts are doing something wrong.

[Spore]

As you already seem to understand, if you aren't an abjurant champion or similar, who invests heavily in AC to become unhittable, it's not a good investment.

It's something for earlier levels against mooks. With trash mobs you deal in different ways.

1) Horde combat character: Cleave, Whirlwind Attack etc. plus decent but not incredible AC

2) Blasts: Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt!

3) Control spells: Entangle, Fear, Sleep, Confusion, Force Wall, Stone Shape

AC 20-25 is enough for early game and most minions late game. It does not make you invulnerable. But I had the PLEASURE of being in a party with a Con 22 AC 11 Barbarian as the designated healer. Yes, with Con 22 you could heal afterwards and be fine. But it still strains the ressources (Pathfinder, so no regen shenanigans, just wands of CLW). You can feel it.

[Venger]

Boots of striding and springing and similar work for people who aren't bogged down by medium armor as well. Speed is all relative. If you move 20ft while everyone moves 5, you're fast. If you move 20ft while everyone moves 60, you're slow.

So no, it does matter.

And if you're saying "well, I just do this so my movement speed doesn't enter into it," that would mean the armor isn't impeding your movement, wouldn't it? Tin cans not on mounts are doing something wrong.

The boots (just as an example, of course there's other stuff to boost movement speed) will get you back up to 30ft/round if you're wearing armor that reduces your land speed. Unless your gm is going out of his way to screw you, most enemies don't move 60 feet a round.

I am saying that, because it doesn't matter. If it's trivial to obviate a speed penalty through things like being on a mount, as you've suggested, then it doesn't really bear mentioning.

[Elkad]

You forgot that. Maneuverability > AC. I've seen many tin cans that arrived at the battle after it was over.

I aim for about 10', plus 5'/level in speed. Being slow the first couple levels is OK, but not for long after that. 10'/level isn't too fast.

If you are faster than the other guy and have a range advantage, you can't lose. Even if you don't have a range advantage (melee vs melee), the opportunity to split up the enemies so you only fight a few at a time is important.

My current game as a player, I move 110' in combat at 12th level, plus have swift-action teleports to draw on. Which is still slow compared to a Phantom Steed.
If they can't catch you, your AC rarely matters.


Note that when you start fighting dragons, that 150' fly is pretty darn fast. You'd better have a counter if you don't want to get strafed to death. If you can run faster than a dragon flies, at least you can get away.

[Fouredged Sword]

All armor in 3.5 is roughly the same total defense value for a character with decent dex. A chain shirt has the same total max dex + armor as full plate.

So compare your dex mod to the armor that best fits it. A high dex character should wear lighter armor or no armor. A low dex character should wear full plate.

[Goaty14]

If they can't catch you, your AC rarely matters.

So your solution to every combat is to run away?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So your solution to every combat is to run away?

I suspect more run around. Elusive target kinda stuff.

[Remuko]

All armor in 3.5 is roughly the same total defense value for a character with decent dex. A chain shirt has the same total max dex + armor as full plate.

So compare your dex mod to the armor that best fits it. A high dex character should wear lighter armor or no armor. A low dex character should wear full plate.

No it doesnt? Padded and Full Plate have 1 more point of value than most other armors. Padded is 1 Armor and 8 Max Dex and Full Plate is the opposite. Thats a total of 9 where Chain Shirt is +4/+4.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Best armor before magic, if you've got the dex, is a mithral chainshirt with a set of dastana and cahar-aina.

+6/+6.

[Necroticplague]

AC, like movement speed, is relative to your fellow party members, not the enemy. It doesn't have to be high enough for the enemies to have trouble with, it just has to be high enough that the DM has enemies target someone else. So 'two points higher than everyone else' is my usual safe bet.

[ericgrau]

Depends on optimization. Whatever you can get for a reasonable chunk of your WBL ("reasonable" varies), spreading out sources to save gold and using other tricks mentioned above. Since the price scales quadratically, it's usually a good idea to at least get cheap items like multiple +1s, if not better.

Besides power attack, there's secondary attacks. And a cheap +1 is worth it even against regular primary attacks. You have to fall 8 points behind before "hit on 10" becomes "hit on 2". That takes a long time, so you usually can get at least some benefit for just a little gold.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Unless you're a frontliner you want enough that non-boss enemies miss at least 50% of the time.
That's about the "level +14" others have mentioned if your DM picks his enemies straight from the MM and sticks roughly to CR.
There's not much point making a CR+4 dragon miss on anything but a 20 when 99% of enemies you'll face have way less to-hit after all. That's just wasted WBL most of the time.

You can get by with a Cloak of Displacement or other miss chance item (if you're good with positioning and not melee), but you should get some AC anyway because a 1/5 chance of not being hit won't keep you alive very long on its own. As in, keep it in a range where it'll actually affect most enemies instead of ignoring it completely and ideally get it as Touch AC.
You should also keep in mind that the first enemy with Blindsight or True Seeing will completely ignore that defense and play accordingly.


AC, like movement speed, is relative to your fellow party members, not the enemy. It doesn't have to be high enough for the enemies to have trouble with, it just has to be high enough that the DM has enemies target someone else. So 'two points higher than everyone else' is my usual safe bet.

If your DM picks targets that way.
Personally i don't play monsters as omniscient. They attack either who's closest or who's the biggest threat (from their PoV), depending on their intelligence.
A dragon or similarly intelligent monster will go for the spellcasters first in most situations, for example. If it's not stopped/blocked at least.