Psychonauts vs. Persona 5: Who did "People's minds as dungeon levels" better?

[Sermil]

(Unmarked spoilers for Psychonauts since it's well over 10 years old now)

What with the "Zodi Plays: Psychonauts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556804-Zodi-Plays-Psychonauts-(This-One-Time-At-ESPer-Camp-))" thread, and having just finished Persona 5, I'm wondering... who did the "People's minds as dungeon levels" better?

On the one hand, both had some standout "Yes, I can totally see the real person in the mindscape levels". For Psychonauts, the Milkman level was creepily wonderful and made perfect sense as the mind of someone having paranoid delusions, and the saturated colors of Edgar's velvet painting level seemed to bring out the view of someone who saw colors far more clearly than I do. For Persona 5, the first level (Kamoshida's Castle) clearly shows why he is abusive jerk he is and why he gets so angry when Ann doesn't act like the brainless sex object he wants her to be.

On the other hand, both had some "misfires". Psychonauts' Fred Bonaparte level didn't seem anything like an actual human mind and was missing that dream / subconscious-weirdness quality you'd expect (especially from someone in an insane asylum), and, of course, Zodi's been complaining about some of the gameplay. On Persona 5's minus side, the casino level didn't seem to have much of anything to do with
Sae Nijima's personality; she seems like a hard-working, somewhat overworked prosecutor, not an "I don't care if they're guilty, get me their heads" type. She's certainly willing to sit there and listen to you ramble on a long time, and is even convinced by your statements of innocence. Yes, she opposes the Phantom Thieves early on, but she (not unreasonably) thinks they are behind the mental shutdowns as well. The ruler of that castle would never be willing to believe in you enough to show the phone to Akechi. And the pyramid level didn't seem like
the mind of someone who was suicidally depressed; there wasn't anything like enough heaviness.

[Eurus]

The idea of your own mind being a sealed-off tomb full of deadly traps actually seemed quite appropriate, to me. It's unpleasant and dangerous, but on the other hand, where else can you go? Outside it's just desert in all directions...

[DaedalusMkV]

On Persona 5's minus side, the casino level didn't seem to have much of anything to do with
Sae Nijima's personality; she seems like a hard-working, somewhat overworked prosecutor, not an "I don't care if they're guilty, get me their heads" type. She's certainly willing to sit there and listen to you ramble on a long time, and is even convinced by your statements of innocence. Yes, she opposes the Phantom Thieves early on, but she (not unreasonably) thinks they are behind the mental shutdowns as well. The ruler of that castle would never be willing to believe in you enough to show the phone to Akechi.

The thing with P5 is that you aren't necessarily entering the subconscious mind of an individual in general so much as the specific 'distortion' that has caused them to develop a twisted view of the world, seeking after 'treasure' that represents whatever it is that caused that distortion in the first place. The game carefully highlights the boundaries of the different palaces to show just how widespread the characters' delusions are, and the fact that everything outside of a Palace belongs to the collective unconscious is indicative of the difference between P5's Metaverse and the journeys into the subconscious in Psychonauts.

Kamoshida has come to see the school he teaches at as his own personal kingdom, which he believes he has earned thanks to his winning of an Olympic medal. It's not just that he sees the students as objects for his glorification and gratification, he fully believes that he deserves this. Hence seeing himself as a king, and his medal as a crown. In his view, his medal grants him the authority to do anything he pleases. Note how nobody in his Palace is unhappy. Everyone willingly does as he commands, regardless of how horrible his actions are from a sane standpoint.

By comparison, Sae's distortions came from the other way, though it's hard to be sure of the exact cause of them since we never see her Treasure in-game. She chose her profession for idealistic reasons, but eventually came to see Japan's court system as a fraudulent casino where the rich and powerful rig the games and use proxies to avoid any consequences to themselves, and where the prosecutors have endless, unfair advantages and are expected to only win at any cost. Real-life Sae would likely be disgusted by Shadow Sae, much as real-Sae grows more disillusioned and disgusted with her own job over the course of the game. It's telling that she quits her job to become a defense attorney at the end of the game, and is clearly much happier for it; the horrible, villainous Sae you find in the Casino? That was what Sae had come to see herself as in her role as a prosecutor, and she despised it. The specific area of the distortion here is particularly important: only the Courthouse is distorted, even though the police station exists within her mental landscape, because Sae does not see the police as corrupt, unlike the courts.

As for the Pyramid, while I personally found it the second least-inspired level in the game in terms of design and gameplay, the symbolism checks out. What could be more indicative of suicidal depression than an unshakeable belief that you are already dead, nothing more than a ghost haunting a tomb filled with monuments to how much you deserved to die?

[smuchmuch]

.... I dont think it's even fair or relevant to compare them.

Persona 5 take it's premice somewhat fairly seriously (TOO seriously sometime. I swear a someone who actualy studied some cognitive sciences and neurobiology, the whole 'cognitive Psience' and the absolute overuse of the word 'cognition' made me cringe quite a bit.) and try to tell a fairly good storry, based on elements that wee hnned i many many many previous Shin Megami tensei games before
While Psychonaut is very clearly made to be wacky, not all that grounded in reality, and more in the general design of a lightheartedSaturday morning cartoon or a comic book.

Persona 5 mental levels are more believable on the whole, while Psychonaut feel more creative.
But in the end both game, I've come to realise really don't feel like they are showing "whole" mindscape, too often do they feel like they reduce the person to a single issue, theyre more like... representation of a particular state of mind that are relevant to their storries.
And Persona 5 does that much better, mosty because in this game it is justified.

[Razade]

But in the end both game, I've come to realise really don't feel like they are showing "whole" mindscape, too often do they feel like they reduce the person to a single issue, theyre more like... representation of a particular state of mind that are relveant to their storries.

I'm going to have to disagree with you pretty strongly here. Psychonaughts juggles and handles a lot of pretty heavy issues. Sure it's all put in the context of a kind of zany, off kilter, Burton-esque at times feel but if you look past a lot of the haha funny moments you see some pretty dark subtext. And sometimes it's just text. Coach Oliander and Raz have some pretty serious abuse issues going on in their lives and the end boss is the literal amalgamation of their overbearing and abusive fathers.

Milla Vodello's backstory and issue you have to resolve is the overwhelming guilty she feels about burning all her children in a giant fire. That's some pretty dark stuff. You can find and hear it in the game itself no less. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ford0MGvWIc) That's...not whimsical or light hearted.

Boyd, the Milk Man Chronicles, character was actually inspired by a real life...mentally unhealthy janitor that worked where Double Fine was based out of. A lot of his lines were ripped right out of things he said and they based the level on that.

Sasha's hate for lamps comes from the fact that his mom died next to a particularly tacky one. So he developed an aversion to them.

It's a lot of digging for a lot of it but Psychonaughts isn't just a wacky game. It gets pretty dark. The darkest stuff was cut even, since people thought it'd make it impossible to sell.

[smuchmuch]

After three playthrough of the game I was aware of those except for Boyd' being insired by a real person, interesting o know. But I feel how that's contadict what i said in the bit you quoted

Where it not for the mental vaults showing you Boy'd getting fired, the milkman conspiracy feel like it could be the mind of any paranoid lunatic. (i such a hing can reall be saidto exist) There is very little in here that make Boyd Cooper stand as thatmu of characer on it's own besides his issues.
All that you se of Edgar Teglee's life in Velvetopia is only wht is relevant to his current sitation.
And Wateloo world is just... shallow.

The only two level that felt like they belonged to a person with an actual history and life to me where Gloria's theater (even if it is seen in a waythatis once againsonly elevant to hermenal issue) and Shasha's cube.
Mila' does have her notso ecret roomof nihtmare, sure, but can't shak the feelng the only reson it's here is because it'san artifac from a cut storyline. (Milla's nghtmare were supposed to escape her mind and contaminate others.

As for the coach. Yes, as you mentioned, we do get to see he had some childhood issues with his father and abueis implied (athough the fact that Rasputin own 'evil father' turns out to be percieved rather than real make you wonder how real were Oleander's own in turn) and adding to it the real vault in basic braining show why you'd get a resut a bitter angry man full of sef issus and resentement tot eh worldat large.
But to get from that to welll.. TAKE ON THE wORLD megalomania, I feel there is some serious 'trigger' events and feelings missing ere. yet te game act as if a hadchildhood was enough to both explain and fuel it all.
I'm sorry but no. There something missing, a partof aultOleader mind that shold have ben confronted and seen as well before he's so easily declared 'cured'.

I understand that levels can only be so big and only so much ca be shown (especialy gven how Pyconaut production ran out of money and time) and only so much will feel relevant to the player but my point is there is more to people, even if they are 'Misfits, Monsters, and Madmen' than a single or a colection of issues.
And that is something that, to me at least, was somewhat mising in some levels; to give that impression there is more to the people and theyr mental world that jsut what you get to see.