Some thoughts/ questions on Oathbreaker Paladin

[No brains]

Is Oathbreaker really that OP? I get that it's good, but does it really outpace all other paladin oaths?

Is Oathbreaker really that evil? They still have a large array of powers that can still be used for good. Lay on hands still doesn't work on undead buddies and smites still deal radiant damage.

Can the Aura of Hate be used against the Oathbreaker? I noticed it didn't say anything about the buffed fiends and undead needing to be friendly.

Can a Hexblade with Lifedrinker and an MC to get Aura of hate really add their charisma to damage three times over?

Is the capstone worth it?

[CTurbo]

Is Oathbreaker really that OP? I get that it's good, but does it really outpace all other paladin oaths?

Is Oathbreaker really that evil? They still have a large array of powers that can still be used for good. Lay on hands still doesn't work on undead buddies and smites still deal radiant damage.

Can the Aura of Hate be used against the Oathbreaker? I noticed it didn't say anything about the buffed fiends and undead needing to be friendly.

Can a Hexblade with Lifedrinker and an MC to get Aura of hate really add their charisma to damage three times over?

Is the capstone worth it?


1) No it's not THAT OP, but it is really strong.

2) it is presented as a pure evil class, but I wouldn't say it absolutely HAS to be evil. Definitely not good though.

3) Yes Aura of Hate will also boost enemy undead and fiends.

4) Yes the Charisma damage stacks

5) Yes it is a really good capstone so it's probably worth it, but all of the Oaths have really strong capstones.

[Unoriginal]

Is Oathbreaker really that OP? I get that it's good, but does it really outpace all other paladin oaths?

No, it's not OP. Just good.



Is Oathbreaker really that evil? They still have a large array of powers that can still be used for good. Lay on hands still doesn't work on undead buddies and smites still deal radiant damage.

Hell yes, they're that evil. The types of powers they have aren't why they're evil, they're evil because to be an Oathbreaker Paladin and obtain those powers you have to be pretty incredibly and consistently a monster of high order.

An Oathbreaker is someone who has intentionally done something terrible, and then actively avoided any attempt at redemption.

They're the kind of guys who are too much of a scum for the Nine Hells to make them an offer. Though it's probably more brecause they're too untrustworthy than anything else.

They're so corrupt that even if you kill one, they'll come back as an undead just so they can continue being terrible people.



Can a Hexblade with Lifedrinker and an MC to get Aura of hate really add their charisma to damage three times over?

Not likely, 5e's rule wording usually make it impossible to attack bonuses from the same source. I don't have my book right here, though, so I can't say for sure.

[Tectorman]

Hell yes, they're that evil. The types of powers they have aren't why they're evil, they're evil because to be an Oathbreaker Paladin and obtain those powers you have to be pretty incredibly and consistently a monster of high order.

An Oathbreaker is someone who has intentionally done something terrible, and then actively avoided any attempt at redemption.

They're the kind of guys who are too much of a scum for the Nine Hells to make them an offer. Though it's probably more brecause they're too untrustworthy than anything else.

They're so corrupt that even if you kill one, they'll come back as an undead just so they can continue being terrible people.

Question: If my goal is to play a Paladin of above 3rd level without having any tenets or possible risk of a forced oath change or multiclass, does the Oathbreaker's permanent fall after the second time overrule the evil requirement or not? You have to be evil to go Oathbreaker, and if you atone and refall, the second time is supposed to be permanent. But you had to go evil to fall. Do you have to stay evil, even though Oathbreaker's supposed to be permanent? Or is Oathbreaker permanent, even if you stop being evil?

[Unoriginal]

Question: If my goal is to play a Paladin of above 3rd level without having any tenets or possible risk of a forced oath change or multiclass, does the Oathbreaker's permanent fall after the second time overrule the evil requirement or not?

No.



You have to be evil to go Oathbreaker, and if you atone and refall, the second time is supposed to be permanent. But you had to go evil to fall. Do you have to stay evil, even though Oathbreaker's supposed to be permanent? Or is Oathbreaker permanent, even if you stop being evil?

Having the Oathbreaker subclass and breaking your Oath twice aren't the same thing.

If you break your Oath twice, be it for evil reasons or not, you stop being a Paladin, permanently. You lose your divine powers, etc.

If you break your Oath (no matter how many time) and then go way, way further down the pit of scum and villainy, you become an Oathbreaker, getting power back.

You could be a Paladin with an Oath and be evil. Oathbreakers are those who don't respect even that.

[No brains]

Regarding breaking an oath as an irredeemably terrible thing to do: what if the paladin breaks their oath because they feel it no longer represents what is right? Someone under the oath of vengeance or conquest could 'fall' as a paladin and 'elevate' as a person. Does an act of mercy on a goblin or refusal to whip a slave really invite evil of the worst kind?

As for the triple threat of charisma to damage, Hexblade lets someone use cha in place of str or dex, lifedrinker adds necrotic damage, and aura of hate adds a bonus to damage. There is just enough similarity and difference to make it confusing.

If hexblade and aura of hate don't stack, does that mean a paladin won't get their aura of protection bonus to their own charisma saves since that would be adding charisma twice?

[CTurbo]

Regarding breaking an oath as an irredeemably terrible thing to do: what if the paladin breaks their oath because they feel it no longer represents what is right? Someone under the oath of vengeance or conquest could 'fall' as a paladin and 'elevate' as a person. Does an act of mercy on a goblin or refusal to whip a slave really invite evil of the worst kind?

As for the triple threat of charisma to damage, Hexblade lets someone use cha in place of str or dex, lifedrinker adds necrotic damage, and aura of hate adds a bonus to damage. There is just enough similarity and difference to make it confusing.

If hexblade and aura of hate don't stack, does that mean a paladin won't get their aura of protection bonus to their own charisma saves since that would be adding charisma twice?



The Charisma bonus to damage stacks. There is nothing anywhere to say otherwise.

[Sception]

The general way to think about it is that breaking you're oath alone doesn't grant you the powers of an oathbreaker, it's just one prerequisite along the way. A vengence or conquest paladin might break their oath by showing too much mercy, but such a violation of their oath in the name of goodness would not open them to the dark powers of the oathbreaker subclass.

Think of it as a two step process. You break your oath and lose your powers, then you have to atone and truly recommit yourself to get them back... OR, if you commit yourself to evil instead (hence the second, alignment based prereq) then you can become an oathbreaker. It's like there's a little corrupting voice that specifically targets paladins who have already demonstrated a willingness to falter from their path.

That said, while the subclass is strong, it isn't unreasonably so if a DM wanted to refluff it in a way that would open it up to non-evil characters, that wouldn't break anything. Basically, where most oathes have good auras or good channel divinities, or good oath spells, the oathbreaker has all of the above. I don't think the other oaths lacking in some of these areas is deliberate balance though. I don't think there's any evidence that, say, devotion deliberately has a weaker level seven aura than ancients ti balance out the better channel it got at level 3.

And while a hexblade/oathbreaker CAN eventually add cha mod to damage 3 times over, you're talking about at the minimum a level 19 character, where a single classed hexblade would have a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell, while a single classed paladin would have improved divine smite (about equal to cha to damage once right there), animate dead, improved find steed, destructive wave, and would be about to get their amazing capstone. Hex/oathbreaker is a good combo, don't get me wrong, but it isn't so good as to be objectively superior to either class on their own.

All that said, refluffing is certainly an option if your DM is up to it. With DM permission, I've used the oathbreaker to represent a Belmont/Guts/Spawn style curse, granting the character dark powers but also empowering the creatures of darkness that hunt him, and that was a pretty fun character. Didn't break anything. Though I fidn't have a necromancer in the party, which is where Oathbreaker does get *a little* silly.

And I've had an idea for a while for a lawful good fallen aasimar oathbreaker, who's fallen/broken status aren't the result of his own moral failings, but rather of their spiritual conection to a celestial guide who was corrupted after creating them. Now they have to hunt down their now-fiendish progenitor and either redeem them (becoming protector/devotion) or slay them (becoming scourge/vengence).

[Astofel]

I run Oathbreakers differently in my games. For me, becoming an Oathbreaker is what happens when a paladin chooses to forsake their oath or deity, and it can happen to a paladin of any alignment. When that divine link is severed it leaves an empty space in the paladin's soul, like a raw, bleeding wound. The new Oathbreaker draws their power from this empty space, but doing so is very painful, and this pain causes many Oathbreakers to become angered and irritable, and lash out at those who don't deserve it, and most Oathbreakers end up evil. It takes a strong will to resist that pain, so although Oathbreakers can technically be good they are few and far between, and most will seek to forge a new oath to fill that hole anyway.

This has led to there being an NG Oathbreaker in the game that I run. The character's not too bright, and was being strung along by an evil god, but recently the character wised up, and chose to turn their back on their god, becoming an Oathbreaker. After all, for character development like that, I don't want to make the game less fun for the player by just taking away all their paladin abilities.

[CTurbo]

Just give me a Hexblade 20/Oathbreaker 20 Gestalt character and I'll be happy! lol

[Unoriginal]

Regarding breaking an oath as an irredeemably terrible thing to do: what if the paladin breaks their oath because they feel it no longer represents what is right? Someone under the oath of vengeance or conquest could 'fall' as a paladin and 'elevate' as a person. Does an act of mercy on a goblin or refusal to whip a slave really invite evil of the worst kind?


Breaking an oath is NOT an irredeemable terrible thing to do.

You don't become an Oathbreaker JUST by breaking your Oath.

You can change your Oath to another, it's acknowledged by the text. You can even abandon the Paladin way without becoming an Oathbreaker.

An Oathbreaker is someone who break their Oath and THEN commit irredeemable terrible things. Lot of them.

There are Paladins who are evil, and they don't go as low as the Oathbreaker does.

Also, a Vengeance Paladin showing mercy to a goblin or refusing to whip a slave would NOT be breaking their Oath, anyway.

Dunno from where the confusion is coming.

[HolyDraconus]

Breaking an oath is NOT an irredeemable terrible thing to do.

You don't become an Oathbreaker JUST by breaking your Oath.

You can change your Oath to another, it's acknowledged by the text. You can even abandon the Paladin way without becoming an Oathbreaker.

An Oathbreaker is someone who break their Oath and THEN commit irredeemable terrible things. Lot of them.

There are Paladins who are evil, and they don't go as low as the Oathbreaker does.

Also, a Vengeance Paladin showing mercy to a goblin or refusing to whip a slave would NOT be breaking their Oath, anyway.

Dunno from where the confusion is coming.

Show me in the phb where this info is coming from. I see a footnote that literally says all that is needed to become an oathbreaker is to break your oath and not repent. Nothing about being evil or doing "irredeemable " bs. Which sits with how 5e divorced the paladin from being forced to be lawful good.

[BlackRose]

In the dmg it specifies that "An Oathbreaker is a paladin who breaks his or her sacred oaths to pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power. Whatever light burned in the paladin's heart has been extinguished. Only darkness remains." DMG 97 It then goes on to say they must also be of an evil alignment. So to parrot previous posters; a paladin must have turned to the dark side to become an Oathbreaker. Someone who simply messed up is just an oathbreaker.

Also yes, you can get 3 times your charisma as damage. They stack separately on top of your base damage and do not replace existing damage calculations (excepting the hex warrior feature).

Gestalting is the easiest way to get this, it is actually a hugely powerful class but then most gestalts are.

In a standard campaign I'd suggest 1 in hexblade, then paladin to 8, then the rest hexblade. You can start with pally if you're desperate for heavy armor but I usually dump str and pick up a shield to make up. This build can really utilize melee animate dead soldiers. They get bonus damage from your charisma and your aura will mediate a bit of aoe saving throw damage they take. Plus your slots recharge on a short rest that you use to maintain your army once youre warlock 5(cl13).

[Unoriginal]

Show me in the phb where this info is coming from. I see a footnote that literally says all that is needed to become an oathbreaker is to break your oath and not repent. Nothing about being evil or doing "irredeemable " bs. Which sits with how 5e divorced the paladin from being forced to be lawful good.

See what Blackrose quoted.

Plus, while it IS possible to atone from being an Oathbreaker, those who stay on this road are the ones who DON'T, ie they're not redeemable. Because, as I've said in several of my posts, they're actively avoiding all chances at redemption.

Paladins don't have to be good. Paladins can be evil without being Oathbreakers. Oathbreakers are those who beyond that.

[Amdy_vill]

Is Oathbreaker really that OP? I get that it's good, but does it really outpace all other paladin oaths?

Is Oathbreaker really that evil? They still have a large array of powers that can still be used for good. Lay on hands still doesn't work on undead buddies and smites still deal radiant damage.

Can the Aura of Hate be used against the Oathbreaker? I noticed it didn't say anything about the buffed fiends and undead needing to be friendly.

Can a Hexblade with Lifedrinker and an MC to get Aura of hate really add their charisma to damage three times over?

Is the capstone worth it?

so i am playing an oath breaker

1. no you are not evil you just broke you oath. i was a oath of vengeance paladin. i didd't brake my oath normally. my god said i broke it so he could put me at strategic point. braking your oath does tend to make you unlawful thought.

2. no they are kind of under powered unless you are dealing with undead. they get very powerful if you have undead around.

3. yes or at lest my dm let it work like that

4. no clue what those are

5. if you are playing a game where you dm uses grunt yes if not no but most of the capstones are like this. i think oath of vengeance and ancient are the only two with capstones worth it all the time.

hope this was helpful

[Unoriginal]

so i am playing an oath breaker

1. no you are not evil you just broke you oath. i was a oath of vengeance paladin. i didd't brake my oath normally. my god said i broke it so he could put me at strategic point. braking your oath does tend to make you unlawful thought.


This is houseruling, though. The books are explicit on how Oathbreakers are evil.

[Renagadez]

I run Oathbreakers differently in my games. For me, becoming an Oathbreaker is what happens when a paladin chooses to forsake their oath or deity, and it can happen to a paladin of any alignment. When that divine link is severed it leaves an empty space in the paladin's soul, like a raw, bleeding wound. The new Oathbreaker draws their power from this empty space, but doing so is very painful, and this pain causes many Oathbreakers to become angered and irritable, and lash out at those who don't deserve it, and most Oathbreakers end up evil. It takes a strong will to resist that pain, so although Oathbreakers can technically be good they are few and far between, and most will seek to forge a new oath to fill that hole anyway.

This has led to there being an NG Oathbreaker in the game that I run. The character's not too bright, and was being strung along by an evil god, but recently the character wised up, and chose to turn their back on their god, becoming an Oathbreaker. After all, for character development like that, I don't want to make the game less fun for the player by just taking away all their paladin abilities.

I like that. I did something similar. In my world there are Succubus's that tempt Paladin's to break their Oath. They seed doubt and fear while claiming the gods abandon them. Paladins who have been tested or subjected to sorrow are more prone to their words. If a Sucubuss can manage to convince a Paladin for forsake their vows and denounce the gods - the Succubus is released onto the mortal plane where it begins its plans.

I've created A warlock archtype for my Oathbreaker Paladin player called the Pact of the Succubus where he was so taken in by the Sucubuss's word that he makes her a patron. The succubus tempts the Paladin by promising power. The Arch type requires a Oath Breaking Paladin first and then a dip into or the remainder of the levels into Warlock.

My player wanted to be an Oathbreaker from the get go, I told him I wanted to see an emotional or tramatic event that was actually seem legitimate of a reason for a player to Oathbreak. He broke when one player went insane and developed a second personality, the character was a good aligned faithful monk who was destined to aid the gods. Through tramatic experience and player salt the monk ended up becoming a different person. Also another player was killed in an undead tomb. An NPC they grew close too died in a swamp being instantly melted in the mouth of a giant frog. Several Critical 1's - one was him damning the gods before he rolled and I explained he was struck by a radiant bolt of pure energy. When he crit 20 I had the succubus state she was lending him power to see that the gods were nothing.

Anyways currently he went from a redeemer Paladin to an Oathbreaker and now he owes his life to the succubus for saving his allies - he is actively helping the succubus Oathbreak other Paladins to give form to new succubus's so she can absorb their power - in return the Oathbreaker gains more power as well. Each Succubus has like an element to it - so if his patron who is a necrotic succubus of the undead captures a fire succubus than the Patron succubus gains fire abilities/spells and grants some of them to the Paladin - they also give his undead elemental power increases.

It's kinda weird but I as a DM and my player is really enjoying it.