3.5 Wizard in an Exalted Game?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, I'm not talking about the Book of Exalted Stupid. I mean Exalted, the game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalted). I've never played it, but I've read some crossover stories where the main characters gain Exalted status and the powers that come with.

They seem to range between being absurdly powerful at times to being almost useless at others, oftentimes within the same story.

Question is, how do Exalted characters tend to sit on the scale of D&D? Would a high level 3.5 wizard with reasonable amounts of optimization be overpowered in comparison? Underpowered? And if so, at about what levels? Mostly this is just to sate my curiosity.

[Nifft]

You'd have to reconcile the basic mechanical systems before you could figure out how D&D spells would work.

You'd also need to decide how summoning / calling / planar effects worked, since Exalted has a very specific cosmology.

I suspect that under most reasonable interpretations, the D&D Wizard would be a weird but viable character in an Exalted game.

[Zanos]

I remember one of the strongest abilities in exalted being the ability to counterattack off-turn, so I'm pretty sure a high level wizard would clean house. I haven't played Exalted for a long time, but if I remember correctly the settings Exalts are closer to enhanced humans than deities. Being bludgeoned with clubs by a pack of commoners is relatively lethal.

[Necroticplague]

Everyone important* in Exalted is essentially a sorceror. The have spells known called Charms, a common reserve of energy called Motes**, and a power stat that boosts the power of the former and the amount of the latter similar to level.

What exactly your power level is depends on your choice of spells known. Just as you can screw up a sorcerer by taking nothing but incredibly situational abilities that are hard to come up, so to can an Exalt be made useless by niche charms, and broken by charms that are almost always useful compared to everything else (There is very rarely a problem you cannot solve with a summoning spell, for instance***).

The comparison is also complicated by the fact that in DnD, your power in all respects scales with level. Exalted's different character progression means the two aspects of power (Charms known and Essence level) aren't necessarily related to each other. So you can have someone with high spell slots, CL, and max spell level, but low spells known, or you can have somebody with a breadth of spells known, but they're relatively weak and limited in their reserves.

Internally, 'exalts' have a category have the same balance as dnd 3.5 casters: they can range anywhere from 'Status quo continues to exist only because can't be bothered to upend it again' levels of ridiculous to 'slighty better than the average person at one thing, basically entirely identical to a random peasant at everything else'.

*=yes, I know the rare non-enlightened Heroic Mortal can be important, but they are usually shown as relatively small potatoes compared to all the essence-wielders.
**=also called essence, but usually referred to as motes to differentiate the stat that's basically the equivalent of your level (Essence) from your mana bar (motes of essence).
***=Though of note, summoning in Exalted is actually what DnD refers to as Calling.

[Quertus]

Wizard: I turn you to stone.

Exalted: no. Prefect dodge. <Player narrates cool cinematic dodge into swinging their hands into the wizard's face>. I counter by hitting you for enough damage to kill two humans.

Wizard: a mild scratch. And you can do that all day long, huh?

Exalted: no, actually, I can't. The amount of power it takes to combine a perfect dodge and an exalted attack into a single maneuver is greater than I recover by stunting.

Wizard: "stunting"?

Exalted: having my player describe my attack in annoying, game-slowing detail.

(And thus was the infinite mana exalted wizard project born.)

Exalted: so, my devastating attack, that could kill dragons and wound gods didn't really phase you?

Wizard: not really.

Exalted: ok, then, I guess, on my turn, I'll attack your intimacies.

Wizard: my what?

Exalted: the things you care about.

Wizard: but the only thing I care about is... No, not my love of treasure! Aaaaaaagh...

(and thus was the first Vow of Poverty wizard born)

-----

By the way I do conversions, at least, the wizard would have issues with planar geography invalidating any teleportation / summoning style spells (assuming that their magic worked at all). Most exalted-level opponents would just "no" anything that they tried to do directly. And "high level" exalted can have all kinds of crazy abilities, including things like mindrape, summoning rituals, etc, that do not necessarily come online at "level appropriate" moments (in fact, many can be wielded by starting characters).

[Morty]

A 3.5 wizard isn't going to be powerful compared to Exalted, but their magic is going to be a lot more reliable and casual than most Exalts can manage. Magic in Exalted has heft and thematic boundaries, rather than being a kitchen sink. The default protagonists, Solars, are incredibly powerful, but to call their powers "spells" is to miss the point entirely - they're superhuman powers channelled through their mastery over mortal skills.

They can get actual spells, through sorcery - but, again, they don't involve reshaping reality by spending a slot and a standard action. Likewise, since Exalted aims to provide exciting and cinematic combat, insta-kill effects and save-or-dies are unheard of. In its third, current edition, anyway, while the other people posting here seem to be working on assumptions from the old ones.

Bottom line, it's really hard to say whether they'd be powerful or not because 3.5 D&D and Exalted have completely different ideas of what constitutes "power".

[Mechalich]

The power of Exalted characters varies significantly from one edition to the next (including garden-variety 2e versus Scroll of Errata 2e) and also in terms of which abilities they use and how those abilities function. A 2e Solar with a full turtle-suite - meaning the set of perfect defenses that can be activated in any instance the system permits - is generally the most powerful build-type. A combat-type build with those abilities can simply utilize a completely normal flurry attack with their Grand Goremaul (the standard OP weapon) and kill roughly three characters per action if they don't have defenses of their own - which means even a high HP wizard would run out of HP awfully fast if taking hits.

As such it comes down to a simple math problem. Assuming a perfect defense can counter any attack launched by the 3.5 Wizard (including SoD, SoS, and damage), it's simply a matter of whether the Exalt runs out of motes before the wizard runs out of spells and is unable to maintain an active defense.

Of course, there are various elements that complicate matters. If one or more sides starts summoning/calling it just gets stupid quickly - in canon many high-level exalts run around with a number of stupidly powerful demon servitors essentially constantly. High-XP exalts have access to a wide range of broken abilities such as sidereal martial arts (Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick exists - a combo that does exactly what the name says and kills everyone in the setting) and high level 'sorcery' that includes the ability to call up demons who have 'plot device' stats (really).

Ultimately though, Exalted is a bad system. Its mechanics are a fractal dumpster fire (1e and 2e at least, I haven't bothered with a fragment of a system that is 3e). Comparing it to anything becomes an exercise in futility because it simply doesn't work as advertised in the first place.

[Peat]

*scratches ear* I... uh, am not really sure where to begin.

Exalted charms vary wildly in power, both in between various types of Exalted and just in general charm sets. Like... one charm will let you parry a mountain falling on you as long as you see it coming, one charm will make you better at pen-pushing. The thing Quertus describes? You could do that with a beginning character in 2nd ed. They could probably also spare a few charms to summon demons and charm the pants off of asexual dead nuns on top of that. I get the impression 3rd ed has toned things down somewhat.

But as Exalts progress, they get increasingly more specialised in doing one or two things incredibly well, while the range of stuff a D&D3.5 Wizard can do gets bigger and bigger. Particularly if they keep getting WBL which just isn't an Exalted thing at all. At some point, I figure they'd be pretty equal.

How does a level 20 wizard compared to an Exalt with about 400 xp? Not sure. That's only about 50 charms (if you never upped your essence). In a lot of ways, an Exalt that far along the power curve isn't all that much more powerful than they were at the start. But if optimised and going straight for the nasty stuff... dunno. I don't know who wins a fight between Octavian and a D&D Solar either (has there been a crossover where the Wizard summons a Solar and accidentally summons an Exalted Solar?).

TL:DR - Exalted has some whacky power dysfunctions but a starting Exalt can achieve a level of power that would make any starting D&D character weep (or be utterly useless), but a far slower power curve favours the D&D3.5 wizard in the end. I think...

[Morty]

A somewhat more useful comparison might be that a reasonably experienced 3E Solar Exalt who's not a sorcerer is what a high-level D&D non-spellcaster could be if they weren't, well, D&D non-spellcasters.

[icefractal]

Definitely depends on the editor of Exalted. If we're talking 2E, a Wizard has effectively the highest circle of sorcery but with more options, so good enough to be a valuable member of an Exalted party for utility. But on the other hand, their defenses run out of a lot faster than those of an optimized Solar, and depending on how the mechanics are handled much of their offensive spells might only work on mooks.

On the other, other hand, it depends on what we mean by "moderately optimized" on the 3.5 side. If it's just "good solid spell and feat choices, but nothing that would render most adventures moot in five minutes", then I'd say the above would be true. If you're talking about a Wizard using heavy minion-mancy and taking measures to be un-targetable in the first place, it becomes a lot harder to compare, but AFAIK Exalted doesn't have anything quite as crazy in that department.

On yet another hand, it's not clear how well said Wizard would be able to deal with Exalted social charms, and some of the organization-scale charms would be hard to match without TO stuff like "I make unlimited Ice Assassins and replace the entire population with them."

Ex3, I'm not too familiar with, but from what I've seen the power level is lower, so the Wizard is likely better in comparison.

[Mechalich]

How does a level 20 wizard compared to an Exalt with about 400 xp? Not sure. That's only about 50 charms (if you never upped your essence). In a lot of ways, an Exalt that far along the power curve isn't all that much more powerful than they were at the start. But if optimised and going straight for the nasty stuff... dunno. I don't know who wins a fight between Octavian and a D&D Solar either (has there been a crossover where the Wizard summons a Solar and accidentally summons an Exalted Solar?).

Exalted has a funny power curve. I wouldn't compare a 400 XP Solar to a 20th level wizard by any means. It'd be more like a 4000 XP Solar. A 20th level wizard is supposed to be one of the most powerful people in any given setting. The most powerful people in Exalted are shockingly, sickeningly, ludicrously powerful and all of them have XP totals that are utterly ludicrous. Could a 20th level wizard take on a Lunar or Sidereal elder? A Deathlord? A 1st Circle Demon? A high-end god?

D&D is usually premised on the idea that your character can become, if they are lucky, skilled, and smart, one of the most powerful people in a given setting. Exalted, like all WW games, is explicitly against this and your character will never, ever, ever, have the power necessary to actually accomplish anything at the setting-wide level unless the ST arbitrarily grants you a massive pile of XP.

[Morty]

Exalted 3E's power level is not so much lower as more consistent, as I understand it. You're not going to screw yourself over by picking the wrong Charms, and a character without a combat focus isn't going to turn into a fine red mist when combat actually starts. Solars are powerful without voiding the whole rest of the setting. Dragon-Blooded are weaker but awesome in their own right. And so on.

Solars, and other Exalts, are also absolutely supposed to make waves, change the setting and knock out major power players. It's rather the point of the whole thing. But, of course, that doesn't mean they have to do it through physical combat or sorcery. You can have an Exalt who is incredibly persuasive, so that they can change the fate of nations with a few words. Or a craftsman who builds a magical death-robot. Or... well, you get the picture.

[Quertus]

Do note that, contrary to my standard "if you're comparing PCs by having them fight each other, you're doing it wrong" stance, I attempted to describe the wizard fighting an exalted because, in Exalted, it's pretty much assumed that any lesser beings are just cannon fodder that you win against. Like, whole nations of them at a time level just win against.

That's only a sight exaggeration of Exalted, right?

[Peat]

Exalted has a funny power curve. I wouldn't compare a 400 XP Solar to a 20th level wizard by any means. It'd be more like a 4000 XP Solar. A 20th level wizard is supposed to be one of the most powerful people in any given setting. The most powerful people in Exalted are shockingly, sickeningly, ludicrously powerful and all of them have XP totals that are utterly ludicrous. Could a 20th level wizard take on a Lunar or Sidereal elder? A Deathlord? A 1st Circle Demon? A high-end god?

D&D is usually premised on the idea that your character can become, if they are lucky, skilled, and smart, one of the most powerful people in a given setting. Exalted, like all WW games, is explicitly against this and your character will never, ever, ever, have the power necessary to actually accomplish anything at the setting-wide level unless the ST arbitrarily grants you a massive pile of XP.

I picked that comparison as taking roughly the same amount of game play. I'd say both are among the most powerful in the setting - compare gods to gods.

And I'd say you're completely wrong about Exalted's premise. The mechanics mightn't always support it, but you are definitely there to usurp the mighty. And some people have found the mechanics support it, fwiw.

[Mechalich]

I picked that comparison as taking roughly the same amount of game play. I'd say both are among the most powerful in the setting - compare gods to gods.

And I'd say you're completely wrong about Exalted's premise. The mechanics mightn't always support it, but you are definitely there to usurp the mighty. And some people have found the mechanics support it, fwiw.

Every single one of the canned adventure modules created for Exalted are basic fetch quests wherein Solars take orders from various other more powerful people. Various portions of the game books might prattle on about usurping the mighty, but the simple fact is that you could stack all 150 returning Solars up against the Mask of Winters (who isn't even supposed to be the strongest Deathlord) and he'd slaughter them all quite easily. And keep in mind that, when people manipulated the mechanics in 1e to come up with ways to just possibly maybe take the Mask on, the 2e response was to massively beef up the stats of him and all the other super-NPCs in the setting.

WW always wanted your characters to cower before the mighty setting-determining NPCs. It's a key aspect of every single game they ever made.

[Quertus]

So, how would the Mask of Winters fair against / in a party with a Wizard 20?

[Calthropstu]

So, how would the Mask of Winters fair against / in a party with a Wizard 20?

How would the mask of winters fare against pun-pun?

[emeraldstreak]

Truly optimized Solars can act on the best Initiative count in the game, are never surprised, and additionally act before anyone else. They teleport away if they don't like the odds. They'll stay mote-positive and willpower-positive under almost all circumstances. They additionally can feed on Pun-pun-like loops achieving arbitrary high (and in some cases infinite) values in some of their statistics. The only way to beat them is to match all of their Initiative tricks and then use Exalted's varieties of "antimagic" and pray the "Storyteller" rules the Solar's perfect defenses shut down before protecting him against the antimagic.

I'd rate Wizards' downtime suite as better defined and worded. Solar utility is impressive between their sorcery, charms, and ability to tap into the powers of other creatures, but a lot of it is left as blanks to be filled in by the Storyteller.

[ryu]

If we pun-puning the D&D side literally has abilities that say you lose, also shut up. Many of which don't even have to be made up. Traveling back in time to murder one's opponent or their ancestors at a vulnerable point for example.

[Arbane]

If we pun-puning the D&D side literally has abilities that say you lose, also shut up. Many of which don't even have to be made up. Traveling back in time to murder one's opponent or their ancestors at a vulnerable point for example.

As it happens, time travel is one of the very few things that can't be done in Exalted. (At least in older editions, haven't been keeping up with 3rd ed.)
Raising the dead is another.

[Morty]

I guess we'd have to figure out if Finger of Death is a withering or decisive attack. What about Disintegrate?

[Calthropstu]

As it happens, time travel is one of the very few things that can't be done in Exalted. (At least in older editions, haven't been keeping up with 3rd ed.)
Raising the dead is another.

So d&d 3.5 wizard pretty much obliterates exalted with a single spell. To be fair, even if they DID have time travel, whoever cast first wins.

[Segev]

The first thing one needs to do in any comparison like this is give good-faith effort to assuming both participating groups have the basic assumptions in place that let their powers work.

Therefore, the Wizard can access all the D&D multiversal planes (at least, assuming he's not silly enough to have failed to bring any spells that do so), and none of his abilities will fail due to cosmological laws being different.

The Exalt, meanwhile, can respire motes and stunt and use Charms that do what they say they do, without any nonsense about the world not following Creation's pseudo-physics.

In other words, both groups' powers do what they say they do.

The harder part can be handling finicky bits like how Health Levels map to Hit Points, and the like, but for this discussion, that's largely irrelevant.

The Solar's perfect Shaping Defense will even protect him from temporal paradox, so Pun-Pun going back in time to kill his father before he's born will just result in a Solar being very angry at his father's murderer.

The Wizard's contingent spells will ping as they're supposed to, so most of the time, the Exalt's mountain-shattering attacks will miss. The Exalt is actually quite used to this, since his own perfect dodges and those of his most dire foes tend to result in the same thing.

As a general rule, the things the Wizard Calls or Summons are going to be "cannon fodder" as far as the Exalt is concerned. Depending on how descriptive and creative his player is feeling, they may be a net advantage as they fuel his stunts. Or they may whittle him down little by little with death by a thousand papercuts due to sheer numbers. Action deficit does kill, but Exalts can cheat it to a degree.

In the Exalted setting, as a member of a party of Solars, a wizard would stand out as a particularly squishy heroic mortal, but with a massive array of useful tricks and minions which, while ranging up to Second Circle Demon level, are not quite as powerful as the greatest of those. (Generally speaking, Third Circle Demons start at Orcus's level and range up to Asmodeus and Io.) The D&D wizard would actually be able to simulate the perfect defenses of an Exalt well enough to survive in Exalted-level combat, and would have much EASIER access to a few tricks that are explicitly very hard to pull off in Exalted. Most notably: casual teleportation. Usually a second circle sorcery, it's something a wizard can do 3-4 times in quick succession if he really wants to, and with a range greater than 50 miles or so.

So, I think a D&D Wizard would stand up well as a party member, if high enough level. But he wouldn't be overwhelming, and in some ways would be the most vulnerable PC.

[Calthropstu]

The first thing one needs to do in any comparison like this is give good-faith effort to assuming both participating groups have the basic assumptions in place that let their powers work.

Therefore, the Wizard can access all the D&D multiversal planes (at least, assuming he's not silly enough to have failed to bring any spells that do so), and none of his abilities will fail due to cosmological laws being different.

The Exalt, meanwhile, can respire motes and stunt and use Charms that do what they say they do, without any nonsense about the world not following Creation's pseudo-physics.

In other words, both groups' powers do what they say they do.

The harder part can be handling finicky bits like how Health Levels map to Hit Points, and the like, but for this discussion, that's largely irrelevant.

The Solar's perfect Shaping Defense will even protect him from temporal paradox, so Pun-Pun going back in time to kill his father before he's born will just result in a Solar being very angry at his father's murderer.

The Wizard's contingent spells will ping as they're supposed to, so most of the time, the Exalt's mountain-shattering attacks will miss. The Exalt is actually quite used to this, since his own perfect dodges and those of his most dire foes tend to result in the same thing.

As a general rule, the things the Wizard Calls or Summons are going to be "cannon fodder" as far as the Exalt is concerned. Depending on how descriptive and creative his player is feeling, they may be a net advantage as they fuel his stunts. Or they may whittle him down little by little with death by a thousand papercuts due to sheer numbers. Action deficit does kill, but Exalts can cheat it to a degree.

In the Exalted setting, as a member of a party of Solars, a wizard would stand out as a particularly squishy heroic mortal, but with a massive array of useful tricks and minions which, while ranging up to Second Circle Demon level, are not quite as powerful as the greatest of those. (Generally speaking, Third Circle Demons start at Orcus's level and range up to Asmodeus and Io.) The D&D wizard would actually be able to simulate the perfect defenses of an Exalt well enough to survive in Exalted-level combat, and would have much EASIER access to a few tricks that are explicitly very hard to pull off in Exalted. Most notably: casual teleportation. Usually a second circle sorcery, it's something a wizard can do 3-4 times in quick succession if he really wants to, and with a range greater than 50 miles or so.

So, I think a D&D Wizard would stand up well as a party member, if high enough level. But he wouldn't be overwhelming, and in some ways would be the most vulnerable PC.

I'd argue least vulnerable given astral projection shenanigans. Unless exalted can somehow bypass the wizard's planar defenses and break into (or strike into) his demiplane, they are pretty much chasing his shadow.

You don't have to be pun-pun to by nigh invincible.
But my wonder is what happens when the wizard lvl 20 decides to pick up and combine his magic with exalted stuff or vice versa... obviously if one can cross between the two systems, you can pick up the tricks of both. Seems like if you gestalt the two, you may just shatter both systems.

[Heliomance]

I'd argue least vulnerable given astral projection shenanigans. Unless exalted can somehow bypass the wizard's planar defenses and break into (or strike into) his demiplane, they are pretty much chasing his shadow.

Thematically, I'd be entirely fine with high-level Larceny charms allowing exactly that, though I don't know if there are any already written. Failing that, Sidereal Martial Arts almost certainly has a solution.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I could absolutely see a Sidereal charm that could pickpocket an astral projection, reach along the silver cord and steal the real item.

[Quertus]

But my wonder is what happens when the wizard lvl 20 decides to pick up and combine his magic with exalted stuff or vice versa... obviously if one can cross between the two systems, you can pick up the tricks of both. Seems like if you gestalt the two, you may just shatter both systems.

Um, no. Just because I live in a world with women and fish doesn't mean that I can breath water and give live birth. :smallfrown:

The wizard may be used to taking levels in whatever class he wants, so long as he meets the prerequisites, but that's the key - he needs an Exalt to "take levels" in an Exalted "class".

And thus was Polymorph Any Object used to create the first artificial Exalt.

(And thus was the infinite mana exalted wizard project initiated.)

[Quertus]

The first thing one needs to do in any comparison like this is give good-faith effort to assuming both participating groups have the basic assumptions in place that let their powers work.

Therefore, the Wizard can access all the D&D multiversal planes (at least, assuming he's not silly enough to have failed to bring any spells that do so), and none of his abilities will fail due to cosmological laws being different.

Although I agree with this when comparing characters, I disagree with this for this particular thread: 3.5 Wizard in an Exalted Game. Exalted, sadly, very much has a setting baked in - and I doubt that said setting is terribly conducive to most D&D wizards - at least, from a planar layout PoV.

[Eldan]

He could do the reverse and teach Vancian Wizardry to the Exalted?

[Nifft]

He could do the reverse and teach Vancian Wizardry to the Exalted?

Eclipse charmstealers would happily learn Vancian Wizardry.

[Segev]

I'd argue least vulnerable given astral projection shenanigans. Unless exalted can somehow bypass the wizard's planar defenses and break into (or strike into) his demiplane, they are pretty much chasing his shadow.

You don't have to be pun-pun to by nigh invincible.
But my wonder is what happens when the wizard lvl 20 decides to pick up and combine his magic with exalted stuff or vice versa... obviously if one can cross between the two systems, you can pick up the tricks of both. Seems like if you gestalt the two, you may just shatter both systems.

If we're assuming a "versus" battle, any Solar kitted out to fight spirits could probably do it. Ghost-Eating Technique is expressly designed to permanently kill spirits who, when "killed," reform in their sanctum. Specifically by destroying the spirit that it is used on. And severing the silver cord would arguably be doable with a stunt and the Charm that allows attacking dematerialized spirits.

If we're not assuming a "versus" battle, then the wizard is a bit safer. Most anti-Spirit stuff are Exalted Charms. But enemy Exalted would still be a threat. Though I can think of ways a Raksha could make a problem of himself, and I don't doubt various spirits and demons would also be threats in their own ways. The wizard has plenty of times his contingencies will pop.

[ryu]

It's not even necessary to be present in spirit form. You can literally make ice assassins of ice assassins of yourself, the level of removal is so that the clones that get to stay alive don't want to kill you, minderape them obedient only to you, and kill the ice assassin middle children. Then order waves of them to do whatever you want while observing at a distance. Vulnerability is completely optional to a level 20 wizard.

[Heliomance]

It's not even necessary to be present in spirit form. You can literally make ice assassins of ice assassins of yourself, the level of removal is so that the clones that get to stay alive don't want to kill you, minderape them obedient only to you, and kill the ice assassin middle children. Then order waves of them to do whatever you want while observing at a distance. Vulnerability is completely optional to a level 20 wizard.

Again, Sidereal charms get conceptual enough that stabbing an ice assassin and having the originating wizard feel it - Feb through a layer of cut outs - is thematically well within their capabilities.

[ryu]

Again, Sidereal charms get conceptual enough that stabbing an ice assassin and having the originating wizard feel it - Feb through a layer of cut outs - is thematically well within their capabilities.

As stated the originating thing is dead. The two creatures share no link, not even the telepathic one, because we've obviated that.

[Eldan]

That doesn't matter. Sidereals can do things like stab abstract concepts, dreams and ideas. Say, breaking a weapon and having the smith who made it die? Possible.

[ryu]

That doesn't matter. Sidereals can do things like stab abstract concepts, dreams and ideas. Say, breaking a weapon and having the smith who made it die? Possible.

So what you're saying is that the wizard can't be the one to have made the ice assassin? Fine. The same steps but then have the ice assassin make an ice assassin of itself then mindrape it with the order to follow your commands. Still too linked? Fine keep the ice assassin alive such it's the creator, the one relaying orders, the mark of appearance, and the only one to have had any proximity with the subject. If you can attack through thematic links the solution is to break them which we've ample resources to do. I haven't even gotten into using Vecna blooded to repeatedly erase all record and knowledge of the caster from history such that you can't know he exists to attack him.

[Nifft]

I haven't even gotten into using Vecna blooded to repeatedly erase all record and knowledge of the caster from history such that you can't know he exists to attack him.

Probably best that you didn't bring that up -- all Siderals get that for free, except stronger.

[Eldan]

So what you're saying is that the wizard can't be the one to have made the ice assassin? Fine. The same steps but then have the ice assassin make an ice assassin of itself then mindrape it with the order to follow your commands. Still too linked? Fine keep the ice assassin alive such it's the creator, the one relaying orders, the mark of appearance, and the only one to have had any proximity with the subject. If you can attack through thematic links the solution is to break them which we've ample resources to do. I haven't even gotten into using Vecna blooded to repeatedly erase all record and knowledge of the caster from history such that you can't know he exists to attack him.

I mean, yeah, there's ways around it, I'm not debating that. I'm just saying that Exalted and D&D sometimes work on very different paradigms and that the same tricks might not work without a lot of hoops to go through.

[ryu]

I mean, yeah, there's ways around it, I'm not debating that. I'm just saying that Exalted and D&D sometimes work on very different paradigms and that the same tricks might not work without a lot of hoops to go through.

And? Wizards are all about being perfectly ready, willing, and able to jump through any number of hoops for safety and power. Their entire moveset is centered around rewarding careful planning and paranoia.

[Lord Raziere]

And? Wizards are all about being perfectly ready, willing, and able to jump through any number of hoops for safety and power. Their entire moveset is centered around rewarding careful planning and paranoia.

Well too bad, cause I have bad news for ya and its called Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style: Breathing on the Black Mirror.

the charm? quite almost literally "the sidereal temporarily becomes the ST, choose one of five possible ways to win this climactic moment, that is what happens automatically, no one can stop this charm, no one remembers this charm happening, no roll, no save, no hope."

and a wizard producing infinite frozen clones to kill and or conquer all of Creation is a pretty damn climactic fight. its the height of 2e Exalted ridiculousness that a single charm is basically an I-win button. Sure thats an E7, Martial Arts 7 Sidereal martial arts capstone charm you need to master a bunch of other stuff to get to first that is only useable during a climactic moment or fight, but if we're having a max level wizard, then high essence Exalts aren't out of the question.

[ryu]

Then the question becomes what edition of exalted we're dealing with. None was listed so in absence of that the native assumption is the most recent one. Is there a more up to date version of the charm you speak of in whatever the most recent exalted is? You said it's second and I know we at least third.

[Eldan]

In that case, shouldn't we switch to 5E wizards, too?

I mean, I'm all for wizards winning this, but that's an annoying argument.

[ryu]

In that case, shouldn't we switch to 5E wizards, too?

I mean, I'm all for wizards winning this, but that's an annoying argument.

The OP SPECIFIED 3.5. Therefore the thought experiment is about 3.5. It also helps that this is the 3.5/pathfinder forum. Convenient for me as 3.5 is the only addition of D&D I actually care about.

They did NOT specify exalted edition.

[Lord Raziere]

Then the question becomes what edition of exalted we're dealing with. None was listed so in absence of that the native assumption is the most recent one. Is there a more up to date version of the charm you speak of in whatever the most recent exalted is? You said it's second and I know we at least third.


In that case, shouldn't we switch to 5E wizards, too?

I mean, I'm all for wizards winning this, but that's an annoying argument.

Well 3.5 is the jankiest outdated edition of DnD and 2e is the jankiest outdated edition of Exalted, so I thought it was only fair. you play the infinite clones of grey goo doom, I play the Sidereal trump card of storytelling.

for 3e, I will assume a 5e Wizard, which is fair since both editions are lower in power. Sidereals and their martial arts charms haven't been printed for 3e yet. however a Solar can use Cup Boils Over, a charm that instantly kills one person that reads something the Solar has written, but only as long as the reader have abstruse or no intimacies, as the written text is about pointing out the readers life is meaningless and them realizing that the Solar is right and dying because of it.

since a Wizard's power comes from reading and uses a spellbook and scrolls, all a Solar has to do is act like a certain scroll has some powerful magic in it that he can't ever let the wizard see, do a lot to protect it, watch the wizard use his tricks to get it anyways then when they open the scroll to read the spell- BAM. Cup Boils Over. dead, because wizards in neither edition has no intimacy mechanics, therefore no intimacies and any wizard paranoid enough to be this powerful would probably care very little to form non-abstruse intimacies anyways.

[ryu]

I mean, you can do that, but I won't be responding on the grounds that I don't care about 5th in any sense whatsoever making any conversation between us moot.

We can even wait for official word on what exalted we're dealing with, but there's a good reason for me to stick to the argument I actually came for. It can in theory involve any edition of exalted but only 3.5.

[Heliomance]

I mean, you can do that, but I won't be responding on the grounds that I don't care about 5th in any sense whatsoever making any conversation between us moot.

We can even wait for official word on what exalted we're dealing with, but there's a good reason for me to stick to the argument I actually came for. It can in theory involve any edition of exalted but only 3.5.

Then let's stick with Exalted 2e, as the edition with the most extant material and also the most hilariously broken stuff.

[Peat]

I'm assuming most people are using the version of Exalted they're most familiar with, and it seems most people here are most familiar with 2nd, which also makes sense for a comparison as its a complete game and 3rd ed still has a lot of material to come. We know that Sidereal Exalted will probably have a lot of ways to utterly curbstomp your day, but we don't know the exact details yet in 3rd.

[ryu]

I'm assuming most people are using the version of Exalted they're most familiar with, and it seems most people here are most familiar with 2nd, which also makes sense for a comparison as its a complete game and 3rd ed still has a lot of material to come. We know that Sidereal Exalted will probably have a lot of ways to utterly curbstomp your day, but we don't know the exact details yet in 3rd.

I mean... I have approximately negative three familiarity with exalted. I just wanted some agreed upon ground rules for the setting thing. When arguing the first thing to establish is exactly what fence everything is to stay in. I also haven't escalated as far as 3.5 allows. We have conceptual level inability to be harmed or hindered as an unambiguously obtainable ability in 3.5 after all. Aleaxs are fun and conceptual level silliness is legal when the other side brings it.

The clone plan isn't conceptual by the way. Merely the roof of practical planning with complete steps of mechanistic level non-arbitrary defensive levels. Non-arbitrary in the sense that they arise by a clear explainable set of steps and work mechanistically explicable ways.

[Eldan]

Thing is, Exalted third is still relatively new and doesn't have that much material out. Second edition has some thirty books, plus a few digital-only publications, totaling about fifty total.

Third edition... Wiki tells me eight books. However, of those, just from the titles:

One book on Solar Exalted (think of it as one "class" or "magic system" in D&D terms)
One book on Dragonblooded (another class or magic system, but really the weakest around, imagine an entire book on monks or fighters in 3.5)
Two books on regions of the setting
Two books on item crafting
One book on magic, probably mostly for Solars again?
One book on a new type of exalted.

Which basically means that third edition doesn't seem to cover the Infernal, Abyssal, Lunar or Sidereal Exalted at all so far, basically. Which makes this a very limited comparison.

[Heliomance]

I mean... I have approximately negative three familiarity with exalted. I just wanted some agreed upon ground rules for the setting thing. When arguing the first thing to establish is exactly what fence everything is to stay in. I also haven't escalated as far as 3.5 allows. We have conceptual level inability to be harmed or hindered as an unambiguously obtainable ability in 3.5 after all. Aleaxs are fun and conceptual level silliness is legal when the other side brings it.

The clone plan isn't conceptual by the way. Merely the roof of practical planning with complete steps of mechanistic level non-arbitrary defensive levels. Non-arbitrary in the sense that they arise by a clear explainable set of steps and work mechanistically explicable ways.

Conceptual level silliness is indeed entirely valid, and I suspect that Exalted has rather a lot more of it than D&D does. I'm not convinced Aleaxes are an insurmountable obstacle to a sufficiently high Essence Exalt.

As a side note, an additional precaution you'd need to take with your Ice Assassin is disguising it - having had a look through Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style, a practitioner can attack you through anything that reflects your image, and there's definitely an argument that holding a mirror to an Ice Assassin of you would count.

[noob]

Conceptual level silliness is indeed entirely valid, and I suspect that Exalted has rather a lot more of it than D&D does. I'm not convinced Aleaxes are an insurmountable obstacle to a sufficiently high Essence Exalt.

As a side note, an additional precaution you'd need to take with your Ice Assassin is disguising it - having had a look through Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style, a practitioner can attack you through anything that reflects your image, and there's definitely an argument that holding a mirror to an Ice Assassin of you would count.

Why use an ice assassin of yourself instead of using one of the exalted you want to annoy?(done by a creature gated by a construct made by a wizard you did not make who was copied by a mirror of opposition by another wizard you did not make)(somehow it was made due to your careful planning and to thugs sent very indirectly to cause that)

[Lord Raziere]

Then let's stick with Exalted 2e, as the edition with the most extant material and also the most hilariously broken stuff.

Well ok, theres the Eclipsoids who can learn All The Charms, there are Infernals who can become Yozis unbound by their oaths and give wizards a bad time, cause the thing about Yozis is that they have a soul hierarchy, and to kill them for perma-realz, you got to use Exalted spirit-killing charms on their most powerful soul, otherwise they just keep coming back endlessly. and even successfully killing them is bad, because every time you do so, it breaks reality a little more and empowers Oblivion, the hole at the bottom of the Underworld surrounded by Neverborn who while they can't do anything directly, also can't die or be fought in any way, shape or form. and if too much things fall into Oblivion, it'll get too powerful and reality ends.

and there is Fair Folk cheese. I forget the exact combos, but Fair Folk can also do infinite reproduction of super-powerful minions as well. like they can get real ridiculous, but the person I know who figured them out who detailed them to me, I don't know where they went, so I don't really remember how. like its a lot of oneiromancy abuse, which requires understanding one of the most weird, complicated and difficult mechanics of 2e AND the errata for those mechanics, all to play what is basically pure chaos pretending to be a humanoid form by adapting story archetypes as their persona and not even an Exalt. I haven't read those mechanics in years, so possible, but it might be too much work to find the exact broken combos that Fair Folk can do....

[Acanous]

I mean, Wish exists. That’s a pretty damn big deal and one of the things it does is change the outcome of a recent moment in time. Like some janky sidereal martial arts shenanigans. Even if you wouldn’t survive, Contingent wish for a resurrection in the event that you die, and you’re doing some BS that nobody in the setting is even going to contemplate. Then wish the outcome of last round went differently.
Ring of evasion plus starmantle cloak and a REF save of 14 with pride domain access through one of the five ways wizards can get it gives you a perfect defense that consumes no motes and it’s vulnerability is “opponent must be using a weapon”. (In exalted, weapons are a big deal, and they feature in the martial arts a lot of the time too. Which I think is cool). You have a couple other tricks that make you immune to attacks all day, and a demiplane that functions as a storage spot for your buff routine using those nifty energy fields means you never actually run out of defenses. Or HP. Or money.
If your demiplane can be fast time (debatable) you end up having decades to prepare for any fight. With the ability to, if that fight starts going south, rewind time and try it again with new preparations.
Then there’s Abrupt Jaunt, aforementioned ice assassin legions, shapechange (as soon as the wizard knows about Higher Circle Demons, he can become one. That’s scary af, unless we assume his spells can only utilize his rulebooks)
The wizard can utilize a few tricks to gain epic level spellcasting. As soon as the wizard has epic level spellcasting, he can make the entire setting bend to his whim, and the gods cry. For that matter, exalted gods are significantly weaker than he’s expecting.
It’s not completely one sided, there are things in exalted that are going to mess with even a high OP wizard, but that wizard is going to laugh Lunars to death and use most solars like speed bumps. He’ll wonder why dragon-blooded even bothered to show up, and what took the death lords so long to actually get out here so he could get the real fight on.

Sidereals, though. That’s where the high op wizard has real problems, unless Mind Blank stops their “forget me” power from working on him. Even if it does, they can nope a lot of his powers and work around the rest.
The wizard’s biggest advantages here are actually from the premise. He’s not up against an equivalent “max possible op exalted of any caste and type”, he’s up against NPCs, and probably not all of them at the same time.

And if he does cheese into epic, ice assassin assisted spellcasting, he could simply create a permanent “I’m immune to sidereal charms and martial arts” spell, which, in all honesty, is what he really cares about.

Being able to do that at all, though, assumes some things.
-that the wizard can find out/remember/know about Sidereals at all,
-that the wizard can cheese his way into epic casting prior to something doing something about him like removing him from creation
-that the wizard actually can create a fast time demiplane (seriously its a “nothing says I *cant*” argument at the best of times)
-that the wizard can pull thought bottle cheese for so much XP.

Also imagine feeding an Exalted Ambrosia. “By the way you just ate 2 XP.”

Point being that Exalted does really turn into Calvinball at the upper end, and Sidereals just flip that over and do what they want. A high op wizard would be a curiosity at worst and something the very lords of creation/destruction can’t wrap their heads around at best.

Of course, Exalted might do what they do with other ridiculously op potential threats; give you whatever you want, put that in a corner of the map, and then leave you alone over there.

[ryu]

Wait it's not assumed standard procedure to change the appearance of all minions? You think I'm going to go the trouble of individually having the ice assassin and mindrape spells cast multiple times for individual minions and not bother to give them a makeover? Really?

On the subject of conceptual no versus conceptual no you have a few options. Both apply defense favored means defensive concepts trump offensive concepts. The fight is a draw as neither side can harm or hinder each other. Or concepts cancel out and we're back to quantifiable advantages contest. Both sides have infinite loops but 3.5 has less explicitly forbidden options and wins.

[Eldan]

Shapechange at least is hit die limited. That doesn't directly translate to exalted, but can roughly be seen as a limit on power level. Scarily high power level, though, more than a Solar (D&D solar, not Solar Exalted), who are basically minor gods (D&D gods, not Exalted's puny lowest levels of gods). It also says non-unique, which, again, should probably exclude a lot of the scariest stuff in Exalted.

[Heliomance]

I've just found Singular Escape Stratagem, in the Scarlet Patterned Battlefield style, which is very interesting. You launch a perfectly executed attack, with every variable accounted for, such that your opponent only has one way to escape. You get to nominate an action your opponent must take - "discard this important defence" is a good one. They then get a choice - perform that action, or don't. If they choose not to, your next attack ignores all defences completely, even perfect ones. This is an explicit exception to the normal rules that defence trumps offence, the only way out of the trap is to do what the Exalt wants.

[Eldan]

The wizard’s biggest advantages here are actually from the premise. He’s not up against an equivalent “max possible op exalted of any caste and type”, he’s up against NPCs, and probably not all of them at the same time.


Not exactly? The OP, as far as I can see, said that it would compare Exalted characters to a 3.5 wizard with "moderate optimization". So, there's at least some player cheese on each side.

I mean, there's no question that a practical optimization wizard runs roughshod over 90% of the Exalted setting's NPCs. That's not a fair comparison.

Otherwise, we could do the reverse. Then, our comparison for D&D is, like, Elminster in the Epic Level Handbook, and he's an utter joke. He has completely pointless Fighter, Rogue and Cleric levels, for Mystra's sake.

[Drascin]

And? Wizards are all about being perfectly ready, willing, and able to jump through any number of hoops for safety and power. Their entire moveset is centered around rewarding careful planning and paranoia.

Not really, no.

Wizards are about being prepared. Wizards are not about "well I'm behind seven projections and I never interact with the game". And as an habitual DM, I kinda wish the meme would die because that is NOT how wizards are played or are supposed to be played and it makes players of Wizards feel like they're failing at their class for acting like actual goddamn player characters and interacting with the ****ing narrative.

As for the question, honestly I think that this would probably end in some kind of alliance in most cases, because what Wizards generally are is curious, and the kind of powers Exalted wield are weird and unique and alien, and by the same token what the wizard does is so much more practical than Exalted sorcery that a lot of Exalts would be quite happy to ask if they can learn some Vancian magic. And I get a feeling your average Wizard would be quite happy to befriend an Eclipse. "Wait a minute, you can copy the enemy archwizard's spells right out of their spellbook without actually opening or touching the spellbook, just by looking at it from far away? And it's not even actual magic, so it can't be dispelled? Okay, let me get you a quill and fire up my Scry pool, because we are about to hit the big time, friend".

[ryu]

I've just found Singular Escape Stratagem, in the Scarlet Patterned Battlefield style, which is very interesting. You launch a perfectly executed attack, with every variable accounted for, such that your opponent only has one way to escape. You get to nominate an action your opponent must take - "discard this important defence" is a good one. They then get a choice - perform that action, or don't. If they choose not to, your next attack ignores all defences completely, even perfect ones. This is an explicit exception to the normal rules that defence trumps offence, the only way out of the trap is to do what the Exalt wants.

If you want to run offense beats defense the D&D side has access to Pun-Pun, alternate form, an unlimited number of bodies wherein it's irrelevant how many you kill, and the ability to calvinball any ability imaginable. You really wanna play the conceptual offense trumps world?

Edit: We interact with the narrative plenty. It's just that people not similarly powerful lose automatically.

[Eldan]

Can we please leave Pun-pun out of this? I mean, I know this thread is kind of a **** measuring contest from its inception, but still. It did say moderate optimization.

[ryu]

Can we please leave Pun-pun out of this? I mean, I know this thread is kind of a **** measuring contest from its inception, but still. It did say moderate optimization.

Conceptual level everything begets conceptual level everything. If you want a lack of conceptual dominance strategies you aren't permitted to use them. Simple as that.

[Eldan]

You were the one going back to the OP. He said moderate optimiization. You can't claim Pun-pun is that.

On the other hand, all those powers mentioned for the exalted are explicitely written up for player use. They are intended.

[Heliomance]

Conceptual level everything begets conceptual level everything. If you want a lack of conceptual dominance strategies you aren't permitted to use them. Simple as that.

Exalted has conceptual dominance strategies baked into it though. An awful lot of the high level Exalted stuff is conceptual, it's just part of how the setting works. D&D doesn't have them unless you're getting into highly theoretical stuff that relies on exploits and minute inspection of precise wordings that don't mean exactly what the authors thought they did.


If you want to run offense beats defense the D&D side has access to Pun-Pun, alternate form, an unlimited number of bodies wherein it's irrelevant how many you kill, and the ability to calvinball any ability imaginable. You really wanna play the conceptual offense trumps world?

Edit: We interact with the narrative plenty. It's just that people not similarly powerful lose automatically.


Singular Escape Strategem is a specific and explicit exception to the normal rule, not a general changing of the rules. I see no reason why it shouldn't be valid.

Given, though, that I've just discovered Fantasy, from the Quicksilver Hand of Dreams style, sure I'll play in that world. Fantasy says that the world is a dream, and you are a lucid dreamer. You get to take over from the storyteller, and narrate how the next scene goes. You can't narrate things that are actually impossible, and everything you narrate must have a cause, but other than that anything goes. Only creatures with an Essence pool are capable of rebelling against the narrative of the scene, everyone else is a helpless puppet.

[ryu]

You were the one going back to the OP. He said moderate optimiization. You can't claim Pun-pun is that.

On the other hand, all those powers mentioned for the exalted are explicitely written up for player use. They are intended.

And yet people wanted to use second because it was the most janky powerful edition available and immediately jumped upon conceptual level abilities which are the height of the system's power. "moderate" applies to both sides as optimization in this case applies just as much to power as effort. You escalate, I escalate. You call for deescalation, I call for deescalation. Because no you don't get to apply the defense only to yourself.

Helio edit: So you're limited to things which are theoretically possible and have cause and effect? Pun-pun isn't.

[Heliomance]

And yet people wanted to use second because it was the most janky powerful edition available and immediately jumped upon conceptual level abilities which are the height of the system's power. "moderate" applies to both sides as optimization in this case applies just as much to power as effort. You escalate, I escalate. You call for deescalation, I call for deescalation. Because no you don't get to apply the defense only to yourself.

Helio edit: So you're limited to things which are theoretically possible and have cause and effect? Pun-pun isn't.

Pun-Pun is a) a far higher level of optimisation than I'm talking - I am literally just looking at individual charms that do what they say, not combining multiple abilities such that the interactions produce effects never intended - and b) requires a very generous reading of Manipulate Form to allow it to grant arbitrary abilities rather than only being able to give published abilities. Pun-pun has every beneficial published ability, under a reasonable reading. Pun-pun does not have the ability to become the DM for a scene.

Also, given that Pun-Pun does not have an Essence pool, "I give a nihilistic speech. Pun-pun realises the futility of all existence and kills himself" is an entirely valid use of the charm.

[khadgar567]

actualy any solar caliber exalted can go mano o mano againgst our good old achmage as the sorcery charms start by saying you are mastered mundane magic thus essence one exalted with enough magic knowledge basicly is 20th level wizard. then the problem increases as second and third circle sorcery charms kinda basicly means nope to any good atempt on wizards behalf. only way i see wizard win basicly finding way to exalt himself quick as possible and reach elder essence 6 as soon as he knows how.

[Heliomance]

actualy any solar caliber exalted can go mano o mano againgst our good old achmage as the sorcery charms start by saying you are mastered mundane magic thus essence one exalted with enough magic knowledge basicly is 20th level wizard. then the problem increases as second and third circle sorcery charms kinda basicly means nope to any good atempt on wizards behalf. only way i see wizard win basicly finding way to exalt himself quick as possible and reach elder essence 6 as soon as he knows how.

Creation mundane magic and D&D mundane magic are very different beasties. Saying that a First Circle Sorcerer automatically gets all the powers of a Wizard 20 is not a defensible reading of the rules.

[ryu]

Ah but the two setting interact. An essence pool is an ability therefore it is gettable. You want to become a DM? I too can do that. Optimization is a matter of results. Not steps. Manipulate form is one ability. It's far simpler than the ice assassin plan. It's just more powerful.

[Eldan]

I think I'm done with this thread. The entire thing was a mistake.

[Heliomance]

Ah but the two setting interact. An essence pool is an ability therefore it is gettable. You want to become a DM? I too can do that. Optimization is a matter of results. Not steps. Manipulate form is one ability. It's far simpler than the ice assassin plan. It's just more powerful.

The standard rules of these things generally involve neither side being able to use abilities from the other - or there's nothing stopping an Exalt from going "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu". Either Pun-pun doesn't have Essence, or an Exalt can become Pun-pun.

As for Manipulate Form, it was never intended to be able to be used by the creature possessing the ability - thus the bit about Sarrukhs being immune to it. The designer very clearly did not intend the Manipulate Form ability to be granted to anything else. That is and remains a higher level of optimisation than reading a charm and doing what it is supposed to do.

[Anymage]

If we're going to escalate pointlessly, Pun Pun vs. V:tM Caine. One can create powers willy-nilly, the other's stats are literally You Lose. E2 made the mistake of explicitly statting out some of its biggest players (you can find numbers for the Unconquered Sun out there), but I'm sure that arbitrary You Lose enemies are out there too.

Going by the spirit of the question over the specific subforum we're posting in, 5e D&D wizard vs. 3e Exalted exalts. A mid to mid-high level wizard can affect the plot in ways that only the highest powers of the Exalted setting can match. Assuming a reasonably sized spellbook and the ability to learn more spells, the wizard's ability to adjust his power list every day gives him a flexibility that few exalts could match. Exalts have more stamina, though, while the wizard quickly finds that limitations of spell slots and Concentration keep them from stopping every avenue of attack.

So what measure of power? Arena combat? Ability to contribute to a party? Ability to render all the DM's notes useless on a whim? The wizard's ability to prepare for a specific situation given a day's warning and ability to pull off effects specifically forbidden in the Exalted canon gives them the edge. An endurance contest (where the exalt's ability to regain motes and larger pool compared to the wizard's spell slots) or a surprise (where the exalts have more broad coverage defense charms that they can use on a moment's notice, while the wizard needs to have a specific counter handy) gives the exalt something to do beyond commiserate with the 3.5 fighter, though.

Edit: To translate into 3.5 terms, an exalt is closest to a wilder, ignoring the risk of enervation. You have a few really cool powers, and what are in practice a limited number of very broad powers. (Ten specific "I'm a talented BS artist" powers looks very similar in play to one broadly applicable charm spell.) You're a spell point based caster, and you can pull off some really impressive stunts within your idiom. Their lack of breadth makes them top out as a low tier 2, however. And again, D&D allows shenanigans that Exalted's cosmology was specifically and deliberately written to forbid.

[Heliomance]

The original question, though, wasn't a versus question. It was, interpreted, "Could a D&D wizard (converted to work under Exalted rules) be a useful and balanced member of an Exalted party, or could an Exalt (converted to work under D&D rules) be a useful and balanced member of a D&D party?"

I think we've fairly well established that the answer to that is yes. They play in sufficiently similar levels of power that they could work together in a party and - depending on optimisation levels - neither would drastically outshine the other.

I suspect that low levels are rather tilted in favour of the Exalt though. I'm inclined to think that a starting Exalt would wreck a level 1 Wizard's face with a fair amount of ease.

[Eldan]

Yeah. Noticeably, D&D magic can do a few things that Exalted magic can never do, like time travel and resurrection. That alone would get them the interest of a few powers in the setting.

[Peat]

If we're going to escalate pointlessly, Pun Pun vs. V:tM Caine. One can create powers willy-nilly, the other's stats are literally You Lose. E2 made the mistake of explicitly statting out some of its biggest players (you can find numbers for the Unconquered Sun out there), but I'm sure that arbitrary You Lose enemies are out there too.


Not really, although maybe I'm forgetting some. Part of the logic behind Exalted is you're playing the weapons that were created for use on the You Lose people. There are no You Lose people, although there are incredibly powerful people that would take an ungodly amount of power to unseat. But that power is out there waiting for a sufficiently advanced PC, and not as heavy optimisation or some theoretical "The DM gives you that look then ignores you" stuff, but straight up baked into the game.

Although, really, also baked into the game is (imo) the assumption that you're not going to be beating these big bads by straight up over mighty power but by picking the right moment and hitting them where it really hurts. Perfect Defences stop being so powerful if you can force the Exalt to act contrary to their virtues. Finding the one person who the Big Bad ever truly loved and social-fu'ing them into talking the Big Bad into laying down their arms is something the rules gives a lot of support for. And so on.

And that goes right back at the PCs. It all depends on play style, but a popular and developer supported way of doing Exalted is the PCs try to make the world a different place, they succeed, but to keep it intact, they have to start choosing between bad options and you see where it goes. Forcing a PC to play a long way out of their comfort zone is a lot more standard than it is in D&D. In such a game, a Wizard would (imo) have a bad time. Everyone has a bad time really, it's at least part tragedy at that point, but Wizards feel a lot less happy when not calling the shots than Exalts.

[Drascin]

Yeah. Noticeably, D&D magic can do a few things that Exalted magic can never do, like time travel and resurrection. That alone would get them the interest of a few powers in the setting.

Though Wizard does not actually get the resurrection spells, sadly. A lot of people in the Exalted setting would personally murder an entire country with their bare hands for access to Resurrection.

[Eldan]

Though Wizard does not actually get the resurrection spells, sadly. A lot of people in the Exalted setting would personally murder an entire country with their bare hands for access to Resurrection.

Wish has an explicit clause that it can replicate Resurrection.

[khadgar567]

3.5 wizard in the exalted setting gonna create completely new exaltation and from the basic crap exalt can do its gonna be one hell of a wacky adventure worth reading. I approve the wackiness.

[Drascin]

Wish has an explicit clause that it can replicate Resurrection.

Oh, right, 20th level Wizard. I've never actually reached 9th level spells, campaigns always end befoore that, so sometimes I forget they exist.

[noob]

Oh, right, 20th level Wizard. I've never actually reached 9th level spells, campaigns always end befoore that, so sometimes I forget they exist.
at level 1 or 17 depending on whenever you like to use scrolls or not you can get wish.

[Eldan]

Yes, but a low-level wizard alone in the exalted world wouldn't have access to scrolls.

[ryu]

Yes, but a low-level wizard alone in the exalted world wouldn't have access to scrolls.

If all rules apply equally the availability of any given magic item is based upon the size of the population center and nothing else. That's if all D&D rules are in effect.

[Eldan]

Not in the Exalted world. We kinda have to assume that the Exalted world is based on Exalted rules, otherwise nothing makes sense.

[ryu]

Not in the Exalted world. We kinda have to assume that the Exalted world is based on Exalted rules, otherwise nothing makes sense.

Was there a point where that ever considered a prerequisite to RAW? I once mass-abducted commoners and forced them to live in a city I built on the grounds that cities of a given population have listed numbers of every class. It was recruitment for a war effort. Yes the characters appeared, immediately, seemingly from nowhere.

[Eldan]

Because if the Exalted worled worked by D&D rules, it wouldn't be the Exalted world anymore. We're not talking about "What can a wizard do", we're talking about "What can a wizard do in the Exalted world".

Also, you can take taking the D&D rules literally only so far. Or do all your D&D games take place in a world where you can't see more than a few hundred feet and the sun is invisible, because of the spot rules? Is gravity linear in your world and there is no inverse square rule, because of falling damage?

[noob]

A level 1 wizard can write a wish scroll provided he knows the wish spell which just means having it in their spellbook(you do not need to be able to cast a spell to make a scroll of it: you only need to know it) and you can have it in your spellbook if you research it which will just take 9 weeks and an easy check.

[Eldan]

I suppose that's true. Though they probably reasonably wouldn't have it (way out of WBL).

[ryu]

I suppose that's true. Though they probably reasonably wouldn't have it (way out of WBL).

Only if Exalted has a harsh limit on wealth as opposed to XP. If world rules don't apply there's nothing stopping the wizard from literally making money.

[Heliomance]

Only if Exalted has a harsh limit on wealth as opposed to XP. If world rules don't apply there's nothing stopping the wizard from literally making money.

Exalted abstracts wealth to Background dots, similar to WoD, which means that increasing your wealth costs XP.

[ryu]

Exalted abstracts wealth to Background dots, similar to WoD, which means that increasing your wealth costs XP.

So what you're saying is that he who has farmable XP of any sort has the money? Ambrosia farming. XP to money is reasonably crafting. Unless money in setting isn't physical objects?

[Heliomance]

So what you're saying is that he who has farmable XP of any sort has the money? Ambrosia farming. XP to money is reasonably crafting. Unless money in setting isn't physical objects?

If you're going with XP generation abuse, money is small potatoes. Just level up faster. Or you could not be a douche and abuse badly written rules in a manner likely to get books thrown at you.

[ryu]

If you're going with XP generation abuse, money is small potatoes. Just level up faster. Or you could not be a douche and abuse badly written rules in a manner likely to get books thrown at you.

It's crafting XP. You don't level with it. You CAN craft with it which is exactly what turning XP into money sounds like.

[Heliomance]

Money is handled very very differently in Exalted to D&D. You don't track how much money you have in Exalted, you simply have dots in Resources, represnting income. A given number of dots in Resources corresponds to a certain steady level of spending money - rather than spending your cash to buy items, you simply have a "can I afford this thing y/n?" check.

Exalted is also a lot less gear dependent than D&D. Most items you actually care about are artefacts, which are generally plot rewards rather than being for sale.

[ryu]

Money is handled very very differently in Exalted to D&D. You don't track how much money you have in Exalted, you simply have dots in Resources, represnting income. A given number of dots in Resources corresponds to a certain steady level of spending money - rather than spending your cash to buy items, you simply have a "can I afford this thing y/n?" check.

Exalted is also a lot less gear dependent than D&D. Most items you actually care about are artefacts, which are generally plot rewards rather than being for sale.

And this isn't the case for a D&D wizard. They have discreet tasks that take an explicate number of little gold coins to accomplish. They can also generate XP which cannot be used to progress their primary power track, literally exactly a wealth tool. In this system that translates to the local money.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah. Noticeably, D&D magic can do a few things that Exalted magic can never do, like time travel and resurrection. That alone would get them the interest of a few powers in the setting.

Particularly the Sidereals. they would NOT want things like original primordials brought back to life, or First Age solars coming back at full power. either of those would be crazy tyrants more powerful than the current age, and the Sidereals would be the ones who know enough to try and stop of any of that being a thing.

but Underworld, Malfeas, Solars in general would all want it, there are a lot of things that should stay dead in Exalted that wish they weren't.

also a thought: Black Mirror Shintai. perhaps a Fiend Caste can use that charm to become his own antagonistic copy of the wizard, then screw the wizard over by fighting him with all the wizards own tricks? there is little more that a dnd character hates than facing a mirror of opposition like opponent.

[Nifft]

also a thought: Black Mirror Shintai. perhaps a Fiend Caste can use that charm to become his own antagonistic copy of the wizard, then screw the wizard over by fighting him with all the wizards own tricks? there is little more that a dnd character hates than facing a mirror of opposition like opponent.

Sure but then the Fiend gets the opposite motivations and intimacies, which in this thread seems to mean:

- Intimacy towards a good-faith reading of the rules; and
- Motivation to avoid anti-social game tactics.

[Lord Raziere]

Sure but then the Fiend gets the opposite motivations and intimacies, which in this thread seems to mean:

- Intimacy towards a good-faith reading of the rules; and
- Motivation to avoid anti-social game tactics.

Not how that works.

its an Ebon Dragon charm. 2e Ebon Dragon is about being an antagonistic jerk to screw other people over not being opposite for opposite's sake. it won't decrease this. if anything it would increase being a jerk find ways to screw over the wizard, because an antagonistic motivation could be "screw over the wizard so I can be the all-powerful wizard instead".

[Quertus]

The original question, though, wasn't a versus question. It was, interpreted, "Could a D&D wizard (converted to work under Exalted rules) be a useful and balanced member of an Exalted party, or could an Exalt (converted to work under D&D rules) be a useful and balanced member of a D&D party?"

I think we've fairly well established that the answer to that is yes. They play in sufficiently similar levels of power that they could work together in a party and - depending on optimisation levels - neither would drastically outshine the other.

So, we now know what the high level D&D Fighter should look like. :smallwink:

[Acanous]

The wizard has a lot of ways to be good in exalted, is the point I think. Depending on the player’s skill and the ST, you could end up anywhere from friendly problem solver to tyrannical mass murderhobo, but there’s a bunch he can do.

[khadgar567]

depends on the level of wizard and how liminal exalted intracts with dnd's resurection spells. if dnd spells works as normal the moment wizard casts resurrect his fallen comrade he exalts as new type of exalted. if exalted rules effects then wizard immidiately dies due his newest creation becomes exalted and now have a grudge against him.

[GrayDeath]

I am not quite sure what you are saying, based on your rather strange grammar, but ... the OP seems to have said a D&D Wizard in The Exalted Setting.

So no, there is no even remotely possible way the Wizard can exalt. r he would not be a D&D Wizard in Creation, but a "Enter Exalted Type with all Wizard Spells he wants", which obviously would lead the question if he could hold his own quite ....astray, no? ^^


Now as someone around as experienced with Exalted 2nd as with D&D 3.x, I`d say:

The Wizard will be the Go To Guy for any and all utility and quite a bit of Area Effects (assuming the Exalts are at most Essence 5ish when he "joins the party"), and be able t do stuff others cant, but on the disadvantage side be MUCH more vulnerable to the Social and conceptual Attacks, not to mention mostly be acting after others.

So pretty balanced overall.


Of course I am usng "reasonable" readings of both systems, as well as medium OP at most.

[Peat]

Now as someone around as experienced with Exalted 2nd as with D&D 3.x, I`d say:

The Wizard will be the Go To Guy for any and all utility and quite a bit of Area Effects (assuming the Exalts are at most Essence 5ish when he "joins the party"), and be able t do stuff others cant, but on the disadvantage side be MUCH more vulnerable to the Social and conceptual Attacks, not to mention mostly be acting after others.

So pretty balanced overall.


Of course I am usng "reasonable" readings of both systems, as well as medium OP at most.

I think that's a pretty good summation.

[Arbane]

I think I'm done with this thread. The entire thing was a mistake.

It was an amusing idea, but this is starting to give me flashbacks to that Sorcerer King guy from a few months back. Not to mention the fact that Exalted was deliberately designed to be the Anti-D&D in a lot of ways, so a high degree of incompatibility is built into this crossover.

[ryu]

It was an amusing idea, but this is starting to give me flashbacks to that Sorcerer King guy from a few months back. Not to mention the fact that Exalted was deliberately designed to be the Anti-D&D in a lot of ways, so a high degree of incompatibility is built into this crossover.

Now now. There's no poor (read: nonexistent) grammar, naked men, or parts of the build being blatantly contradictory with other parts. Not every argument that gets heated is Lorddrako. Also every new post is an actual iteration on the escalation as opposed to reposting previous lines while shouting about lack of defense. I daresay there isn't a single person on this forum that wouldn't find the comparison offensive.

[noob]

Now now. There's no poor (read: nonexistent) grammar, naked men, or parts of the build being blatantly contradictory with other parts. Not every argument that gets heated is Lorddrako. Also every new post is an actual iteration on the escalation as opposed to reposting previous lines while shouting about lack of defense. I daresay there isn't a single person on this forum that wouldn't find the comparison offensive.

Should we post naked exalted pics or naked wizard pics?

[ryu]

Should we post naked exalted pics or naked wizard pics?

Considering I'm pretty sure that was what got that guy banned? Well for the first time anyway. Neither.

[Quertus]

Not to mention the fact that Exalted was deliberately designed to be the Anti-D&D in a lot of ways, so a high degree of incompatibility is built into this crossover.

Details?

Also, I find it amusing that, in trying to create "Anti-D&D", they created the best solution to the perceived problems of the D&D 3e Fighter I've seen. :smallwink:

[Zanos]

Considering I'm pretty sure that was what got that guy banned? Well for the first time anyway. Neither.
Nah, he didnt get banned for ab-posting, he was just insulting everyone who disagreed with him.

[ryu]

Nah, he didnt get banned for ab-posting, he was just insulting everyone who disagreed with him.

Wait it wasn't both? Do we not having rules about spamming images of dubious appropriateness? HAVE I BEEN LIVING A LIE THIS WHOLE TIME?!

[Nifft]

Details?

Also, I find it amusing that, in trying to create "Anti-D&D", they created the best solution to the perceived problems of the D&D 3e Fighter I've seen. :smallwink:

Mmm, it's not accurate that Exalted was created to be "Anti-D&D".

What's true is that the Exalted devs deliberately went out of their way to avoid, subvert, or otherwise divert players from falling back on D&D tropes in the Exalted setting.

Examples include:
- There are no good kings whose rule you should support. There are queens and princes, all of whom tend to be of ambiguous morality.
- There are no princesses you need to rescue. There are princesses, but they tend to be heavily armed warriors ("Invincible Sword Princess" is one of the iconics).
- There are no gods who know better than you and tell you what to do through subtle signs & fates or whatever. Gods are generally selfish jerks and what you should do is smack them around until they do their damn jobs.
- There are no taverns. You don't get jobs from a cloaked wizard in a dark corner.
- Elves aren't forest hippies. The Fair Folk are fairy tales that eat people, or cthulhu's cockroaches, or madness given hunger, but they're not your friends.
- Demons are real, and you can totally summon them, but there is no demonic invasion, ever. It can't happen. They can ache in longing and bemoan their cruel fate and emote like a romance novel vampire, but they ain't getting out. The fact that it can't happen means you're free to tell all the other stories that D&D's setting-shaking events tends to crush.
- The gods aren't right, but also the biggest religion isn't evil. There's this one world-spanning religion which preaches that you are Anathema, but other than that it's generally a good thing for the people who follow it. It's not perfect, of course, but it's not an evil that needs to be overthrown.
- There is no "true religion" which everyone should follow. There are plenty of religions which are fine in moderation, but can have bad consequences when abused by powerful individuals -- ancestor worship is an example here, but so is worshiping your local gods to the exclusion of other gods.
- There is no "alignment". The local equivalent to evil ("creature of darkness") is a political designation, not a moral consequence. At high levels, and with the right magic, you can impose it on anyone you dislike.
- There is no objective morality. There's just power. Here, have a lot of power. Let's see what you do with it.

[Quertus]

Mmm, it's not accurate that Exalted was created to be "Anti-D&D".

What's true is that the Exalted devs deliberately went out of their way to avoid, subvert, or otherwise divert players from falling back on D&D tropes in the Exalted setting.

Examples include:
- There are no good kings whose rule you should support. There are queens and princes, all of whom tend to be of ambiguous morality.
- There are no princesses you need to rescue. There are princesses, but they tend to be heavily armed warriors ("Invincible Sword Princess" is one of the iconics).
- There are no gods who know better than you and tell you what to do through subtle signs & fates or whatever. Gods are generally selfish jerks and what you should do is smack them around until they do their damn jobs.
- There are no taverns. You don't get jobs from a cloaked wizard in a dark corner.
- Elves aren't forest hippies. The Fair Folk are fairy tales that eat people, or cthulhu's cockroaches, or madness given hunger, but they're not your friends.
- Demons are real, and you can totally summon them, but there is no demonic invasion, ever. It can't happen. They can ache in longing and bemoan their cruel fate and emote like a romance novel vampire, but they ain't getting out. The fact that it can't happen means you're free to tell all the other stories that D&D's setting-shaking events tends to crush.
- The gods aren't right, but also the biggest religion isn't evil. There's this one world-spanning religion which preaches that you are Anathema, but other than that it's generally a good thing for the people who follow it. It's not perfect, of course, but it's not an evil that needs to be overthrown.
- There is no "true religion" which everyone should follow. There are plenty of religions which are fine in moderation, but can have bad consequences when abused by powerful individuals -- ancestor worship is an example here, but so is worshiping your local gods to the exclusion of other gods.
- There is no "alignment". The local equivalent to evil ("creature of darkness") is a political designation, not a moral consequence. At high levels, and with the right magic, you can impose it on anyone you dislike.
- There is no objective morality. There's just power. Here, have a lot of power. Let's see what you do with it.

Ah. Makes a lot of sense. Although I'll insist that the bolded part is pretty true in D&D, too (although I'd word the sentiment more as "kill them for ****ing everything up", myself)

[Mechalich]

Exalted was created as a typical WW game with an epic fantasy gloss. It's most important (and officially acknowledged) source of inspiration is the Tales from the Flat Earth stories by horror fantasist Tanith Lee. So yes, you are epic and awesome, but the forces of darkness (and in exalted the 'forces of darkness' encompasses essentially everyone, the setting is almost completely devoid of good guys) are still massively more powerful than you will ever conceivably be and it is still your purpose of existence to suffer hideously for their amusement.

[Nifft]

Ah. Makes a lot of sense. Although I'll insist that the bolded part is pretty true in D&D, too (although I'd word the sentiment more as "kill them for ****ing everything up", myself)

In Exalted, you can kill basically anything, including concepts.

However, if you kill a thing, you may need to do its job for a while until you can wrangle a replacement.

So it's not that you can't kill all the gods -- it's that doing so might result in significant inconveniences for you and everyone you care about.

[Morty]

Gods in Exalted range from the most powerful deities who live in heaven, to the small gods of fields, rivers and forests who are pretty much everywhere. To most people in Creation, "religion" basically means "try to get along with whatever local gods and elementals are around so they leave us alone". The Immaculate Philosophy is, well, more of a philosophy than religion, and apart from denouncing Anathema its main tenet is that the gods have a job to do and they should do it properly. Then it sends Exalted monks with elemental martial arts for enforce that.

I do certainly appreciate a setting that fully acknowledges the effect that powerful people and beings have on it. And I really think it wouldn't hurt if high-level non-magical characters took some cues from Solar Charms.

[Arbane]

A few other anti-D&Disms in Exalted:

No 'demi-human' races. Only humans can become Exalted. Beastmen qualify. (Later, they muddied this quite a bit with Mountain Folk and Dragon Kings and whatnot, admittedly.)
Extremely abstracted wealth, so 'dungeon crawling' for some beastmen's pocket change is a waste of time.
Having to commit essence to use most powerful magic items means most characters are only going to want two or three big ones, at most. (I've seen fixes for D&D's Christmas Tree Effect that use something similar.)
Magical healing was originally rather hard to come by - if even a Solar takes a bad hit, they'll be staggering around for a while.

[Morty]

I'm not sure if I'd call a lot of those "anti-D&Disms". More like not doing some very specific things only D&D does.

[Eldan]

Most of that is how I run D&D
. Don't think we ever had a noble king, at best decently intelligent pragmatic ones. Or true religions. I love splinter sects and mystery cults. And all my games have Fair Folk.