Why is the Phoenix...true neutral? [Tome of Foes]

[damascoplay]

"Releasing a phoenix from the Inner Planes creates
an explosion of fire that spreads across the sky. An
enormous fiery bird forms in the center of the flames
and smoke- an elder elemental possessed by a need to
burn everything to ash. The phoenix rarely stays in one
place for long as it strives to transform the world into
an inferno."

Shouldn't Chaotic Neutral be a better alignment for this psychotic bird?

[Ryuuk]

Sounds like the motivation I've seen for other elementals. They are alien and almost animal-like, like trying to attribute motive to a natural disaster. It's not malice as much as pure instinct.

I don't know if it can be reasoned with, but guilt sounds like it would fall on whoever released it.

[JackPhoenix]

It's not intelligent enough to make moral decisions...with Int 2, it's basically just an animal. And it's not evil made flesh or powered by evil spirits like other, low-int evil creatures, like some fiends or zombies.

I'm not thrilled about this version of a phoenix, but it reminds me of a scene from Fantasia 2000 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eG_O1wEJ40) I've seen recently.

[Ninja_Prawn]

It's not intelligent enough to make moral decisions...

Then shouldn't it be unaligned? What's its actual Int score?

I have to say, CN sounds appropriate for the description in the OP.

Edit-ninja'd! Yeah, it should definitely be unaligned.

[Unoriginal]

"Releasing a phoenix from the Inner Planes creates
an explosion of fire that spreads across the sky. An
enormous fiery bird forms in the center of the flames
and smoke- an elder elemental possessed by a need to
burn everything to ash. The phoenix rarely stays in one
place for long as it strives to transform the world into
an inferno."

Shouldn't Chaotic Neutral be a better alignment for this psychotic bird?

No? It doesn't want to spread chaos.

The fire that burns down an house isn't particularly un-lawful. It's just fire.

It's not like the fire bird wants to be there, it's summoned without being asked, and then it just wants to do its nature.

I suppose the phoenix would have been unaligned if not for their great WIS and CHA that indicates there is some form of intellect in that bird, despite the 2 in INT.

[damascoplay]

No? It doesn't want to spread chaos.

The fire that burns down an house isn't particularly un-lawful. It's just fire.

It's not like the fire bird wants to be there, it's summoned without being asked, and then it just wants to do its nature.

It's kinda ironic it wants to turn the world into an inferno, but doesn't want to spread chaos.

True,

And true. Would do the same if i was a monster of fire and death incarnated.

[Lunali]

A world burned to the ground is order incarnate.

[Fire Tarrasque]

No it's not.
That's everything being dead.
It's not chaotic, but there's no order either.
That's distinctly unaligned.

[Joe the Rat]

Burn the world, and another arises anew? Wipe the slate clean.
A bit more... definite than merely keeping a thumb on the scales, but acts in the role of Balance, exceedingly low Int aside.

[Lombra]

Could even be lawful. Lawful to its fiery oath.

[Waazraath]

Why did they change the alignment in the first place? I mean from good to neutral? I don't know about other editions, but in 3.0 it was good, and I think in most fantasy games it is (symbol of rebirth and everything).

[hamishspence]

4e changed it to unaligned, and it may be a holdover from that.

[damascoplay]

Then shouldn't it be unaligned? What's its actual Int score?

I have to say, CN sounds appropriate for the description in the OP.

Edit-ninja'd! Yeah, it should definitely be unaligned.

Agreed. Even the Tarrasque has an Wis of 11 and Cha 11, wich is almost the same scores of your average guard CR 1/8 stats. And the Tarrasque is unaligned.

The motivation for the Phoenix to burn everything to ashes just seems so bland and boring. It just wants to burn things because it must.

The Lore is just so....Meh. [Edit]

[Tanarii]

5e Alignment is moral and social attitudes, and it pretty clearly doesn't have any of those.

The 5e typical behavior for Alignments commonly arise from certain moral and social attitudes. The 'flow' is in that direction, although there's room for a feedback loop. Alignment, or certain moral and social attitudes, may lead to a typical behavior. But something exhibiting the typical behavior doesn't require that they are the corresponding Alignment.

In this case, it's effectively a combination of animal and natural disaster. There's no moral or social attitude element involved in either of those, at least in any D&D edition to date.

Although those who lose their family or livelihood to a Phoenix would probably think it Evil.

[Millstone85]

I also think the phoenix, and other elder elementals for that matter, should be unaligned.

A thought on the lore. It says that elder elementals are elementals that grew bigger by eating their own kin. Since regular elementals are Int 5~6 and each speak one of the four variations of Primordial, it seems this cannibalism makes them dumber.

[Tanarii]

I also think the phoenix, and other elder elementals for that matter, should be unaligned.
They are. They're Neutral.

[Millstone85]

They are. They're Neutral.In 5e, neutral is the alignment of those who prefer to steer clear of moral questions. By contrast, an unaligned creature doesn't understand such questions to begin with.

[Estrillian]

In this case, it's effectively a combination of animal and natural disaster. There's no moral or social attitude element involved in either of those, at least in any D&D edition to date.

Not much of a natural disaster though ... it can't do all that much damage, though at least it can set things on fire. I suppose it does a better job than the water one though, which can't manage to get a tidal wave to go more than 250 feet ... that's the problem trying to represent epic foes with balanced combat mechanics I suppose.

[Tanarii]

In 5e, neutral is the alignment of those who prefer to steer clear of moral questions. By contrast, an unaligned creature doesn't understand such questions to begin with.
Hmmm. You're right. They probably should have been unaligned.

[druid91]

Personally, I read Unaligned and mentally edit it to be True Neutral anyway. Because Unaligned is nonsensical.

[Tanarii]

Personally, I read Unaligned and mentally edit it to be True Neutral anyway. Because Unaligned is nonsensical.
Not under the 5e definition of alignment as "moral and social attitudes".

If you can't conceptualize those, technically you cannot have an alignment.

I was making the mistake of assuming that preferring to avoid those was the same thing as being incapable of conceptualizing those.

[Millstone85]

There are at least three flavors of true neutrality:
* Can't conceptualize matters of good/evil and law/chaos. Ex: a shark.
* Is lawfulish-goodish or any such wishy-washy alignment. Ex: bystander#137.
* Is commited to preserving the Balance. Ex: Mordenkainen.

5e gave the first one its own separate designation: unaligned. That may have been pointless.

[JackPhoenix]

Not under the 5e definition of alignment as "moral and social attitudes".

If you can't conceptualize those, technically you cannot have an alignment.

I was making the mistake of assuming that preferring to avoid those was the same thing as being incapable of conceptualizing those.

Zombies are still mindless and neutral evil.

[Snowbluff]

It has morality. When asked a moral question, it just always has one answer.
"Fire."

[Tanarii]

Zombies are still mindless and neutral evil.
I'd say they're a special case. They inimical / hostile to all life, despite being mindless, so they have a built in "moral attitude".

Of course, one could make the same argument for the Phoenix.

[Millstone85]

Zombies are still mindless and neutral evil.
I'd say they're a special case. They inimical / hostile to all life, despite being mindless, so they have a built in "moral attitude".

Of course, one could make the same argument for the Phoenix.Ah but, you see, the phoenix runs on elemental fire, while the zombie runs on
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Periodic_Table_Evil_Element.png

Also, fiends are made of the stuff. No matter how intelligent, they do not choose to be evil, they just are.

And yeah, evil without choice does sound like a philosophical paradox.

[Unoriginal]

Zombies are still mindless and neutral evil.


I'd say they're a special case. They inimical / hostile to all life, despite being mindless

No, zombies aren't mindless.

They have a very limited mind, but it's 100% dedicated to destroying and hurting living beings.




And yeah, evil without choice does sound like a philosophical paradox.

They technically have a choice, but it's so against their very being they'd stop being Fiends if they took it.

Gra'azt *chose* to be chaotic instead of lawful, so he went from a Devil to a Demon.

[sophontteks]

A honey badger is true neutral.
A honey badger don't care. It just takes what it wants.
A pheonix is just a flying, burning Honey Badger.

Like, convince me that a honey badger is evil just because it kills whatever it wants, when it wants. Making it burn and fly doesn't change its alignment, it just enhances the terror a true neutral creature can unleash.

True neutral shows Indifference, apathy, and a lack of conviction. It just does what it wants. True neutral essentially means it doesn't care at all about alignment, any alignment, one way or the other.

In a big way I'd say true neutral creatures can be even more destructive then evil creatures.

[AureusFulgens]

A honey badger is true neutral.
A honey badger don't care. It just takes what it wants.
A pheonix is just a flying, burning Honey Badger.

Like, convince me that a honey badger is evil just because it kills whatever it wants, when it wants. Making it burn and fly doesn't change its alignment, it just enhances the terror a true neutral creature can unleash.

True neutral shows Indifference, apathy, and a lack of conviction. It just does what it wants. True neutral essentially means it doesn't care at all about alignment, any alignment, one way or the other.

In a big way I'd say true neutral creatures can be even more destructive then evil creatures.

This isn't quite what True Neutral is. It avoids taking a strong stance on moral questions, but that doesn't mean it has no morality. The classic True Neutral individual wouldn't mug you, but they also wouldn't protect you from a mugger. Either being willing to die for a stranger or being willing to kill a stranger, in the presence of enough mental capacity to understand the ramifications of either act, would be a choice that swings away from Neutrality.

Which is why I kind of like Unaligned as an option - it makes a distinction between falling somewhere in between true will-to-self-sacrifice (Good) and true will-to-hurt (Evil), and just not having the capacity to understand that moral distinction. A given shade of Neutrality is a specifc moral decision (like "zero" is a number in between positive and negative one); Unaligned is the absence of any moral decision (the space is left blank and no number is chosen).

The will to knowingly kill a sentient creature falls under the heading of Evil. But while a Honey Badger will kill anything it wants, its lack of moral capacity means that that is not an Evil act; it is simply Unaligned. (If we ever found out that Honey Badgers were actually sapient, then we'd have to re-evaluate that.)

This is also why it does confuse me a bit that the elementals are Neutral. It seems to be a standard thing that they decided "ordinary elementals are Neutral by default" unless they're smart enough to be something else. I get the impression that this suggests having an intellect, but just not one that really comprehends the concept of other things that are not its element being alive? (I remember a quote from somewhere that an air elemental sees humans as complicated bags of water.)

[sophontteks]

This isn't quite what True Neutral is. It avoids taking a strong stance on moral questions, but that doesn't mean it has no morality. The classic True Neutral individual wouldn't mug you, but they also wouldn't protect you from a mugger. Either being willing to die for a stranger or being willing to kill a stranger, in the presence of enough mental capacity to understand the ramifications of either act, would be a choice that swings away from Neutrality.

Which is why I kind of like Unaligned as an option - it makes a distinction between falling somewhere in between true will-to-self-sacrifice (Good) and true will-to-hurt (Evil), and just not having the capacity to understand that moral distinction. A given shade of Neutrality is a specifc moral decision (like "zero" is a number in between positive and negative one); Unaligned is the absence of any moral decision (the space is left blank and no number is chosen).

The will to knowingly kill a sentient creature falls under the heading of Evil. But while a Honey Badger will kill anything it wants, its lack of moral capacity means that that is not an Evil act; it is simply Unaligned. (If we ever found out that Honey Badgers were actually sapient, then we'd have to re-evaluate that.)

This is also why it does confuse me a bit that the elementals are Neutral. It seems to be a standard thing that they decided "ordinary elementals are Neutral by default" unless they're smart enough to be something else. I get the impression that this suggests having an intellect, but just not one that really comprehends the concept of other things that are not its element being alive? (I remember a quote from somewhere that an air elemental sees humans as complicated bags of water.)
Remember I'm talking about the morals of honey badgers and pheonixes. They don't have morals. In fact true neutral is the only alignment that can have no morals. If you are evil, you do have morals. Evil morals.

Killing is in no way an evil act. Good kills and fights just as much as evil. So does neutral.

And true neutral will mug. They wouldn't if they were lawful, and they don't do it just because like chaotic. But their alignment has no limitations on who/what it kills, steals from, etc.

True neutral does what it wants. It has no inherent moral implications within its alignment what-so-ever.

[Millstone85]

A honey badger is true neutral.Beasts are unaligned, which in 5e is different from neutral.

[Tanarii]

No, zombies aren't mindless.

They have a very limited mind, but it's 100% dedicated to destroying and hurting living beings.
The MM has an entire paragraph about how they are Mindless. Its even titled that.

[sophontteks]

Zombies are raised by dark magic to do evil's bidding. That makes them evil, which also might be why they don't just kill each other.


Beasts are unaligned, which in 5e is different from neutral.
Honey Badgers aren't in the MM. They would no doubt be their own entity. Honey Badger type. True neutral CR 15.

[War_lord]

Just for context, Blackrazor the omnicidal soul eating sword is Chaotic Neutral. The Dopplganger, whose whole deal is murder and identity theft, is neutral. The Lizardfolk, which will do whatever's expedient to survive and has no understanding of emotion or morality in Neutral. To be evil in 5th edition terms, there has to be inherent malice. The Phoenix isn't inherently malicious, it comes from a plane of everything being on fire, which is why it has an urge to set potentially flammable things on fire, because that's the natural order where it comes from. The idiot cultists who summon it are evil, it's not evil.


The MM has an entire paragraph about how they are Mindless. Its even titled that.

"A zombie can follow simple orders and distinguish friends from foes, but its ability to reason is limited to shambling in whatever direction it is pointed, pummeling any enemy in its path."

It's not literally mindless. Literally mindless creatures can't ID friend from foe. Like all the simple undead it's animated by evil magic.

[JackPhoenix]

No, zombies aren't mindless.

They have a very limited mind, but it's 100% dedicated to destroying and hurting living beings.

One of the blurbs in zombie's fluff is literally called "mindless soldiers" and describes how stupid they are.

[Finback]

a flying, burning Honey Badger.

Stats please.

[MaxWilson]

There are at least three flavors of true neutrality:
* Can't conceptualize matters of good/evil and law/chaos. Ex: a shark.

Also, munchkin murderhobos. :-)

[DeadMech]

I prefer to treat elementals not on a good/evil chaotic/lawful axis but on a fire/water earth/air axis.

A fire elemental popping out of the elemental plane of fire via a volcano into an elven forest on the material plane isn't evil for starting a forest fire. Wood burns. It's fire. A match made in Mount Celestia. "Have you heard the good word? Fwooosh crackle pop!"

"I mean I'm sure you know what you're doing Mr Conjuration Wizard. you got this whole thing going on. But have you ever tried... not being 60% water?"

[noob]

I prefer to treat elementals not on a good/evil chaotic/lawful axis but on a fire/water earth/air axis.

A fire elemental popping out of the elemental plane of fire via a volcano into an elven forest on the material plane isn't evil for starting a forest fire. Wood burns. It's fire. A match made in Mount Celestia. "Have you heard the good word? Fwooosh crackle pop!"

"I mean I'm sure you know what you're doing Mr Conjuration Wizard. you got this whole thing going on. But have you ever tried... not being 60% water?"

And in dnd 3.5 there is the equivalent of atonement for fire(and for cold but not for water or earth or air)

[Ivor_The_Mad]

The Phoenix is fire incarnate. It IS fire and just like fire it hungers and wants to consume all it touches. This mirrors the description of wanting to immolate the world. Fire isn't evil but I do see what you mean chaotic neutral.

[Amdy_vill]

"Releasing a phoenix from the Inner Planes creates
an explosion of fire that spreads across the sky. An
enormous fiery bird forms in the center of the flames
and smoke- an elder elemental possessed by a need to
burn everything to ash. The phoenix rarely stays in one
place for long as it strives to transform the world into
an inferno."

Shouldn't Chaotic Neutral be a better alignment for this psychotic bird?

i like the ideas of the elder elementals but most of them should have different alinements. it is true neutral as that is the flavor of the elder elementals