3.5 knowledge devotion

[jdizzlean]

when giving up the knowledge domain to instead take the devotion feat, is that considered a standard feat choice, or a bonus feat?

[Kayblis]

It's a choice given by a class, either as a class feature or an ACF. The Knowledge Domain is a bonus domain and, if you choose to trade it for the feat, Knowledge Devotion is a bonus feat. You can pick Knowledge Devotion with a standard feat choice without losing the Knowledge Domain if you want to keep both.

[Nifft]

Just as an aside, if you're a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) in specific, then your Knowledge skills all come from the Knowledge Domain -- so you probably want to keep that Domain, unless you have another class level which gives you Knowledge skills.

[jdizzlean]

awesome, thanks :)

[BowStreetRunner]

Just as an aside, if you're a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) in specific, then your Knowledge skills all come from the Knowledge Domain -- so you probably want to keep that Domain, unless you have another class level which gives you Knowledge skills.
I've always assumed that Decipher Script and Speak Language were added to the standard Cleric skill list and the All Knowledge Skills from Knowledge Domain was layered on top of the standard Cleric skill list as well. This would mean that you still keep Arcana, History, Religion, and The Planes.
(Note that if you take the position that Cloistered Cleric ONLY receives Decipher Script and Speak Language, that means that you have a caster class without Concentration or Spellcraft, which would be quite unique.) I realize that the line "The cloistered cleric has all the standard cleric class features, except as noted below." was actually written below the class skills, but I'm pretty sure that the class skills mentioned are additions, not in place of the entire list of Cleric class skills.

[Nifft]

I've always assumed that Decipher Script and Speak Language were added to the standard Cleric skill list and the All Knowledge Skills from Knowledge Domain was layered on top of the standard Cleric skill list as well. This would mean that you still keep Arcana, History, Religion, and The Planes.
(Note that if you take the position that Cloistered Cleric ONLY receives Decipher Script and Speak Language, that means that you have a caster class without Concentration or Spellcraft, which would be quite unique.) I realize that the line "The cloistered cleric has all the standard cleric class features, except as noted below." was actually written below the class skills, but I'm pretty sure that the class skills mentioned are additions, not in place of the entire list of Cleric class skills.

From an RAW perspective, you're wrong. The SRD doesn't seem to consider skills / HD / BAB / or some other attributes as "class features". You can see this in any class:
https://i.imgur.com/HicxdWJ.png

Note how class features are the stuff UNDER class skills / HD / alignment, and saving throws don't appear in that section either.


From a slightly harder RAW perspective, the class tells you where all the Knowledge skills come from (and this is why I linked the SRD entry for the class, which you quoted):


Class Skills

The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).
If you sell the Knowledge domain, you lose all Knowledge skills, because all Knowledge skills are from the Knowledge domain.


From an RAI perspective, the Cloistered Cleric is a class which "spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training. He gives up some of the cleric's combat prowess in exchange for greater skill access and a wider range of spells devoted to knowledge" -- which to me means that asking for a free combat buff instead of a mild combat reduction would be a violation of the spirit of the class.


If you feel like Clerics need a buff and you want to give them free stuff, then that's your right as a DM, but per any interpretation of the rules that I can see, you're not doing something supported nor intended.

[BowStreetRunner]

From an RAW perspective, you're wrong...
From a RAW perspective, Unearthed Arcana doesn't say that Cloistered Clerics lose the Cleric skills. Look at the other variants - "A savage bard loses Decipher Script and Speak Language as class skills." "Eliminate Diplomacy from the avenger's list of class skills." "Eliminate Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (dungeoneering) from the ranger's class skill list." and so on... Whenever a variant loses something from the original, it explicitly says so.

[Nifft]

From a RAW perspective, Unearthed Arcana doesn't say that Cloistered Clerics lose the Cleric skills. Yes, it does. It replaces the core Cleric skill list.

I quoted the line where that explicit replacement occurs.

The Cloistered Cleric's knowledge skills come from only the Knowledge domain.

Cloistered Clerics have no knowledge skills except as derived from their possession of the Knowledge domain.

[BowStreetRunner]

Yes, it does. It replaces the core Cleric skill list.

I quoted the line where that explicit replacement occurs.

The Cloistered Cleric's knowledge skills come from only the Knowledge domain.

Cloistered Clerics have no knowledge skills except as derived from their possession of the Knowledge domain.

The Knowledge Domain granted ability states "Add all Knowledge skills to your list of cleric class skills." The text you quoted simply points that out. Under the core cleric it states "A cleric who chooses the Animal or Plant domain adds Knowledge (nature) (Int) to the cleric class skills listed above. A cleric who chooses the Knowledge domain adds all Knowledge (Int) skills to the list. A cleric who chooses the Travel domain adds Survival (Wis) to the list. A cleric who chooses the Trickery domain adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Hide (Dex) to the list. See Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells, for more information." None of these create an explicit replacement.

EDIT: And just to be clear, an explicit statement would say "this REPLACES that". It's explicit that the one thing is gained and the other is lost. An implicit statement would be something like "you get this" and you are left to believe it also means you don't get that.

What the Cloistered Cleric entry states is "The cloistered cleric’s class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below)." It doesn't say that it excludes anything else that it previously had.

[Nifft]

The Knowledge Domain granted ability states "Add all Knowledge skills to your list of cleric class skills." The text you quoted simply points that out. Nope. The text I quoted explicitly says that the class gets knowledge skill access because of the Knowledge domain. The Cloistered Cleric derives all knowledge skill access from its bonus domain.

Normally, that means the class skills include the knowledge skills, thanks to the Knowledge domain power.

But you sold that domain, so you don't get that domain power.

It's quite cut and dry.

[BowStreetRunner]

Nope. The text I quoted explicitly says that the class gets knowledge skill access because of the Knowledge domain. The Cloistered Cleric derives all knowledge skill access from its bonus domain.
My problem is I have a copy of the book and I have looked at the SRD and I don't see that quote anywhere.

[jdizzlean]

know devotion also explicitly gives you back one knowledge skill as a class skill moving forward...

[Nifft]

My problem is I have a copy of the book and I have looked at the SRD and I don't see that quote anywhere. Cloistered Cleric also gets Tongues as a level 3 spell, moved from level 4. Do you think they get Tongues as a level 3 spell and a level 4 spell? They don't.

The access to knowledge skills is explicitly "from the Knowledge domain", which the write-up assumes you have because the write-up gives it to you explicitly. If you were allowed to sell the Knowledge domain, you'd undercut a bunch of Cloistered Cleric assumptions -- and that would not do what you hope it would do.


know devotion also explicitly gives you back one knowledge skill as a class skill moving forward... Indeed.

You'd get one Knowledge skill instead of all of them.

That's certainly better than nothing.

[BowStreetRunner]

Here is the relevant text:

UA page 50...
"Class Skills: The cloistered cleric’s class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below)." This is an inclusive statement - it mentions what is added to the class skill list - not an exclusive statement - it doesn't state anything is taken away.

"Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells:...In addition to any domains selected from his deity’s list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains Knowledge as a bonus domain (even if Knowledge is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Knowledge domain granted power and may select his bonus domain spell from the Knowledge domain or from one of his two regular domains." This statement further makes clear that you receive the Knowledge domain granted power as a result of gaining Knowledge as a bonus domain. From this it is implied that if you remove the Knowledge domain you also lose its power.

PHB page 187
"Granted Power: Add all Knowledge skills to your list of cleric class skills." This is an additive statement - it does not take anything away. You are now receiving Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (the planes) from two sources - your class skills and your domain granted power.

Please look up the words EXPLICIT and IMPLICIT before you go and say again that there is something in these rules that explicitly states that you lose your cleric skills. Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, and Spellcraft are not lost. You add Decipher Script and Speak Language. If you retain the Knowledge domain then you also add all Knowledge skills. If you trade the Knowledge domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat then you only keep the original four Knowledge skills plus you get to add one more Knowledge skill to your class list as part of the feat. However, keep in mind that the Knowledge Devotion feat is the only Domain feat from Complete Champion that has a prerequisite (Knowledge (any) 5 ranks) so you can't take it at first level anyway. Unless you are dipping Cloistered Cleric at a level where you already have 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill, you won't be able to trade your domain out.

[Vertharrad]

Here is the relevant text:

UA page 50...
"Class Skills: The cloistered cleric’s class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below)." This is an inclusive statement - it mentions what is added to the class skill list - not an exclusive statement - it doesn't state anything is taken away.

"Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells:...In addition to any domains selected from his deity’s list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains Knowledge as a bonus domain (even if Knowledge is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Knowledge domain granted power and may select his bonus domain spell from the Knowledge domain or from one of his two regular domains." This statement further makes clear that you receive the Knowledge domain granted power as a result of gaining Knowledge as a bonus domain. From this it is implied that if you remove the Knowledge domain you also lose its power.

PHB page 187
"Granted Power: Add all Knowledge skills to your list of cleric class skills." This is an additive statement - it does not take anything away. You are now receiving Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (the planes) from two sources - your class skills and your domain granted power.

Please look up the words EXPLICIT and IMPLICIT before you go and say again that there is something in these rules that explicitly states that you lose your cleric skills. Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, and Spellcraft are not lost. You add Decipher Script and Speak Language. If you retain the Knowledge domain then you also add all Knowledge skills. If you trade the Knowledge domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat then you only keep the original four Knowledge skills plus you get to add one more Knowledge skill to your class list as part of the feat. However, keep in mind that the Knowledge Devotion feat is the only Domain feat from Complete Champion that has a prerequisite (Knowledge (any) 5 ranks) so you can't take it at first level anyway. Unless you are dipping Cloistered Cleric at a level where you already have 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill, you won't be able to trade your domain out.

You just argued against yourself...everything points to the domain(granted power) as the source of your knowledge skills which you trade away for knowledge devotion which gives you back 1 knowledge skill. I don't know what you envision when you think temple scholar, but I envision someone with quite a few skills. My suggestion is use the feat to get knowledge devotion while keeping the domain. Is that such a sacrifice? Answer...No.

[BowStreetRunner]

You just argued against yourself...everything points to the domain(granted power) as the source of your knowledge skills which you trade away for knowledge devotion which gives you back 1 knowledge skill. I don't know what you envision when you think temple scholar, but I envision someone with quite a few skills. My suggestion is use the feat to get knowledge devotion while keeping the domain. Is that such a sacrifice? Answer...No.
You have Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes) from Cleric. You choose not to take the Knowledge domain, therefore you do not add Knowledge (all) from the domain. So you are left with just Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes).

There is nothing in the Unearthed Arcana rules for Cloistered Cleric that states the Cloistered Cleric loses the normal Cleric skills.

EDIT: In fact, pp 47-48 of UA state that the Class Skills listings within the section on Variant Classes shows "Additions or subtractions from the class skill list, and/or changes in the number of skill points gained per level." These are not wholesale replacements of the original list. Since Cloistered Cleric only mentions additions and not subtractions, therefore all of the original skills are still retained. You add Decipher Script and Speak Language. If you keep the Knowledge Domain, you add all Knowledge skills otherwise you just have the four Cleric knowledge skills.

[PrismCat21]

Cloistered Cleric does not replace the standard Cleric's class skills. It adds to them.
Since the standard Cleric's already has
K. Arcana, K. History, K. Religion, and K. The Planes, , Cloistered Cleric will have them whether they keep the Knowledge Domain or not.

If you believe the standard Cleric's class skills list is replaced by Cloistered Cleric, than they lose all thier other skills that are not specifically mentioned.

Cloistered Cleric specifically adds skills to the standard Cleric class skills, it does not specifically take any away. So, the standard four knowledge skills are not taken away.

[Nifft]

If you believe the standard Cleric's class skills list is replaced by Cloistered Cleric, than they lose all thier other skills that are not specifically mentioned.

Cloistered Cleric specifically adds skills to the standard Cleric class skills, it does not specifically take any away. So, the standard four knowledge skills are not taken away.

The Cloistered Cleric list indicates that only the knowledge skills have been reassigned to come from the Knowledge Domain.

None of the other skills have that annotation.

If you sell the Knowledge Domain, you only lose the skills which have been reassigned to come from the Knowledge Domain.


If they meant to add skills, they'd just add skills, not over-write the source for those four Knowledge skills.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Cloistered clerics retain the Knowledge skills on the cleric list, even when the Knowledge domain is traded away. The note that says "from the Knowledge domain" explains why all Knowledge skills are on that list; that explanation is necessary, because clerics already have four Knowledges, and it's unusual to have duplicates.

[Vertharrad]

All the arguing aside are they really so feat starved that getting it by way of feat is totally off the table? There are 3 knowledge skills left(if you want to get the most out of the devotion) if you are right dungeneering/local/nature and the devotion only gives you 1 more, why not go for it all?