Frustration with Spellcaster Monsters

[DragonBaneDM]

Hey all. I wanted to vent about something I've been struggling with as a DM for a while now. I'm hoping some other folks might feel the same and some might have even find a way to deal with this.

I feel like I hit a wall any time I'm building an encounter with an enemy spellcaster. Usually, this is when I'm putting together a game on roll20. It's just really time consuming to look up a monster, plug in all the spells for macros, format them to not look messy when they come out, put in their save/to hit numbers to each macro, and still have energy/interest left to want to give them some minions. I love putting together monsters in roll20, it's like a fun mini-game that makes me feel like I'm a video game programmer, but casters break that for me. They're just always tedious

Real life DnD is a bit easier. I just copy and paste spell descriptions from the SRD and refer back to Word document I've got them copy pasted in. It's clunky, but at least it's not tons of prepwork. The whole thing just makes me miss 4E's monster design.

My ultimate frustration is the fact that once the party's high-damage barbarian, paladin, or sorlock gets ahold of my squishy little Warlock of the Archfey or Necromancer, they're dead in two rounds, if that. A lot of caster stat-blocks just don't have the right interference/defensive spells to keep themselves alive long enough to make their high CR have an impact.

I'm trying new stuff like only making macros for spells I think the spellcaster will survive to use and trying out new terrain things. I gave my necromancer these corrupted obelisks he teleports to when reduced to 2/3rds and 1/3rds hp. But honestly it just feels gimicky and fiated. If casters aren't going to be interesting for me to pilot/for my PCs to fight, why should I take time putting them together in the first place?

[jollydm]

I have a secret that my players can never know: whenever the party composition includes a Barbarian, I usually end up increasing the hit points of monsters to compensate.

In terms of trying to protect your spellcasters, you could maybe try designing the encounter in such a way that makes them hard to reach: maybe the players have to push through an area of difficult terrain, or have to climb a wall to get to them. Maybe the spellcaster has minions that are good at grappling, and are instructed to grab anyone that tries to get close to the caster and drag 'em away.

But yeah, I feel your pain. Spellcasters always add onto my prep time when designing encounters (although I don't use Roll20 so thankfully I don't have to wrestle with that extra element).

[MaxWilson]

Hey all. I wanted to vent about something I've been struggling with as a DM for a while now. I'm hoping some other folks might feel the same and some might have even find a way to deal with this.

I feel like I hit a wall any time I'm building an encounter with an enemy spellcaster. Usually, this is when I'm putting together a game on roll20. It's just really time consuming to look up a monster, plug in all the spells for macros, format them to not look messy when they come out, put in their save/to hit numbers to each macro, and still have energy/interest left to want to give them some minions. I love putting together monsters in roll20, it's like a fun mini-game that makes me feel like I'm a video game programmer, but casters break that for me. They're just always tedious

Real life DnD is a bit easier. I just copy and paste spell descriptions from the SRD and refer back to Word document I've got them copy pasted in. It's clunky, but at least it's not tons of prepwork. The whole thing just makes me miss 4E's monster design.

My ultimate frustration is the fact that once the party's high-damage barbarian, paladin, or sorlock gets ahold of my squishy little Warlock of the Archfey or Necromancer, they're dead in two rounds, if that. A lot of caster stat-blocks just don't have the right interference/defensive spells to keep themselves alive long enough to make their high CR have an impact.

I'm trying new stuff like giving my necromancer these corrupted obelisks he teleports to when reduced to 2/3rds and 1/3rds hp. But honestly it just feels gimicky and fiated. If casters aren't going to be interesting for me to pilot/for my PCs to fight, why should I take time putting them together in the first place?


Is your objective to make your spellcasters live longer and have more dramatic impact, or to keep their current dramatic impact but save on prep time? My answer below assumes you've trying to save on prep time.

Sounds like an issue with Roll20's UI. Obviously it needs to improve.

As for real life, I haven't had the same problem you have, maybe because I have a pretty good memory and don't feel the need to write out all the spell descriptions: I can just write e.g. "Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Armor of Agathys," and a few more, and I'm good. If you feel your prep is being wasted, well, either save the spell list for the next spellcaster or do less of it by excluding irrelevant details. If you're dead sure your look spell caster won't survive three rounds, give him only two spells (one concentration, one not) and call it good. Not deciding spells he won't bother to cast its no different from not determining such languages he knows but won't bother to speak, during his limited time on stage, or not determining his relationships with other villains who won't appear onstage with him.

[Jamesps]

One thing you might consider is to build encounters with caster groups. A few lower level casters might not play to as many tropes, but tactically it creates much less of an opportunity to cut off your primary resource.

[DragonBaneDM]

I have a secret that my players can never know: whenever the party composition includes a Barbarian, I usually end up increasing the hit points of monsters to compensate.

In terms of trying to protect your spellcasters, you could maybe try designing the encounter in such a way that makes them hard to reach: maybe the players have to push through an area of difficult terrain, or have to climb a wall to get to them. Maybe the spellcaster has minions that are good at grappling, and are instructed to grab anyone that tries to get close to the caster and drag 'em away.

But yeah, I feel your pain. Spellcasters always add onto my prep time when designing encounters (although I don't use Roll20 so thankfully I don't have to wrestle with that extra element).

Ha, that first part sounds pretty smart. Great Weapon Fighting is a helluva drug.

I'm working on that second part. Lately I've been doing stuff like having them start the fight with mage armor/invisibility already cast and either behind cover or trying to get there. Last time it didn't work so hot, but I'm hoping this combat I'm planning now that will pay off. A flesh golem, gladiator, and kraken priest should be able to hold the fort for a necromancer pretty well; they're all great grapplers.


Is your objective to make your spellcasters live longer and have more dramatic impact, or to keep their current dramatic impact but save on prep time? My answer below assumes you've trying to save on prep time.

Sounds like an issue with Roll20's UI. Obviously it needs to improve.

As for real life, I haven't had the same problem you have, maybe because I have a pretty good memory and don't feel the need to write out all the spell descriptions: I can just write e.g. "Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Armor of Agathys," and a few more, and I'm good. If you feel your prep is being wasted, well, either save the spell list for the next spellcaster or do less of it by excluding irrelevant details. If you're dead sure your look spell caster won't survive three rounds, give him only two spells (one concentration, one not) and call it good. Not deciding spells he won't bother to cast its no different from not determining such languages he knows but won't bother to speak, during his limited time on stage, or not determining his relationships with other villains who won't appear onstage with him.

I think you listed both of my objectives, but thanks for the advice on saving prep time! It's not that I don't know the general effect of most spells, but honestly if you put a gun to my head and said "Alright kiddo, you've got 5 seconds to tell me the range and radius of Circle of Death." I'm probably screwed. (Wait actually. 120/60? Okay bad example)

Roll20s UI is pretty okay. It's marvelous for attack based monsters actually. It's just...tough to build an NPC caster the same way you'd build a PC spellcaster. Spells in 5E are long. They're paragraphs. The system is built for starting at a low level and slowly but surely adding spells in as you level up. With an NPC it just sort of feels like monotonous data-entry, and lord help you if you try to copy paste from an SRD and just throw it in there, it'll come out looking real sloppy.


One thing you might consider is to build encounters with caster groups. A few lower level casters might not play to as many tropes, but tactically it creates much less of an opportunity to cut off your primary resource.

That's a really good point! Lately I've been trying so much to make the spellcaster the boss monster. I've had an idea for a while about a combat with a warrior-prince who's being supported by a bunch of casters. I might try making them Druids.

[Justin Sane]

Quick question, which character sheet are you using on Roll20? Shaped5E handles the formatting for spells imported from the SRD really well. It's not without its issues, so YMMV.

[Davrix]

Greater invis, fly and misty step are your best friends when it comes to spell casters.

[MaxWilson]

Greater invis, fly and misty step are your best friends when it comes to spell casters.

And of course Shield and Counterspell, and the Dodge action. Feel totally free to hide behind partial or total cover (and possibly to Hide as well) while concentrating on spells.

As an enemy spell caster in hiding, don't feel the need to necessarily reveal your presence on round one. Sometimes the sucker punch counts for more if you let the PCs pull themselves out of position first, e.g. Barbarian and Paladin see a bunch of wolves and run over to start smacking them, and THEN the hidden Lizard Shaman conjures a bunch of poisonous snakes (Conjure Animals) on top of the squishies (Wizard and Bard) in back, and then dives back underwater to avoid counterattacks. Front liners may have to take opportunity attacks, which could knock them prone and eat up movement, in order to kill the snakes before they kill the squishies.

[Unoriginal]

My ultimate frustration is the fact that once the party's high-damage barbarian, paladin, or sorlock gets ahold of my squishy little Warlock of the Archfey or Necromancer, they're dead in two rounds, if that. A lot of caster stat-blocks just don't have the right interference/defensive spells to keep themselves alive long enough to make their high CR have an impact.


Well, it's the whole principle of those monsters, and of casters in general. If you get ahold of them, they're ****ed. But you need to get ahold of them.


If you think their spell list is an issue, you can change it. Personally, I would suggest adding mooks to the encounter so that the caster can't get grabbed and killed in two rounds flat, because there are meatshields in the way.

[Composer99]

One trick you might make use of is deciding what mooks/meatshields/minions the caster might have first, then how the caster might stay out of harm's way, and only after that come up with a spell list and do the work of entering it?

[Pex]

I have a secret that my players can never know: whenever the party composition includes a Barbarian, I usually end up increasing the hit points of monsters to compensate.


That's not being fair. That's punishing the player for the audacity of playing a class the game says he can. That is no different than every monster having resistance or immunity to fire because a player is playing a gold dragon blooded Draconic Sorcerer with Fire Bolt, Burning Hands, and Fireball, and is 6th level.

[Unoriginal]

That's not being fair. That's punishing the player for the audacity of playing a class the game says he can. That is no different than every monster having resistance or immunity to fire because a player is playing a gold dragon blooded Draconic Sorcerer with Fire Bolt, Burning Hands, and Fireball, and is 6th level.

Indeed. It's like saying "there is a Paladin in the group I DM for, so I make sure their Smite aren't effective" or "there is a Rogue in the group, so all enemies get extra HPs to counter Sneak Attack".

[Armored Walrus]

OP, this not being the Roll20 forum aside, you know you can just drag SRD spells from the Compendium onto the character sheet (not copy/paste.... drag it over)? If you don't know that, then you are wasting a ton of time. Go post on their forums for help if you want more detail.

Regarding yoru spell caster living, well, they need to fight smart. Do the spellcasters on the PC team die immediately? What do those players do to make sure they don't fall into the clutches of your high-damage melee foes? Copy whatever is working for them?

If the answer is that you just don't attack their squishies, well, quite being so nice. Menacing their casters is a great way to get the paladin off your spellcasting boss and onto the mooks that are about to drop their wizard.

All that being said, I will second or third the suggestion to only give your casters a couple spells. They won't have time to cast more than a few spells in the typical fight; and for Gygax' sake don't bother copying the details of Detect Magic or Comprehend Languages. That's material to tell you how this NPC operates, not something you need to know during a combat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Two suggestions:

to improve survivability, minions are always the answer. Non-legendary (ie no legendary actions) monsters are not built to stand up to a whole party by themselves and will get obliterated. Especially glass-cannons like most casters. Drop the CR of the caster a bit and add a lot of smaller minions. I recommend that the average non-legendary encounter have between 4 monsters and 2x the party size.

To improve ease of running, remember that the average combat length is about 3-4 rounds. So plan what they're going to cast--one big concentration spell and a couple of nukes. Throw in a defensive spell and you're good. Instead of filling the "active" list (the one you actually copy over) with spells that aren't going to get used, only copy the essential ones. Leave the rest of the list indeterminate (or in a different source). This also means that you'll start to remember what each one does real fast--the 99th time you cast fireball, you'll remember the details.

[Tanarii]

Spell caster BBEG do sometimes tend to be too fragile. I prefer to have them be lieutenant types backing up a more physical BBEG. Or 1-2 of them with 2-4 more melee oriented of about the same power.

In fact as a general rule I try to avoid the "1 powerful creature with weak minions" type fights. It's too close to a solo fight. I prefer 3-6 creatures of roughly the same power, within maybe 2 CR (or steps of CR for less than 1) of each other.

[Ganymede]

That's not being fair. That's punishing the player for the audacity of playing a class the game says he can.

D&D isn't a survival simulator. The players are looking for the exact same thing the DM is: exciting and memorable play. If the PCs are curb-stomping the content with little sense of risk or excitement, whether due to class mix, equipment use, or otherwise, changing up the challenges is a boon to the players, not a punishment.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Spell caster BBEG do sometimes tend to be too fragile. I prefer to have them be lieutenant types backing up a more physical BBEG. Or 1-2 of them with 2-4 more melee oriented of about the same power.

In fact as a general rule I try to avoid the "1 powerful creature with weak minions" type fights. It's too close to a solo fight. I prefer 3-6 creatures of roughly the same power, within maybe 2 CR (or steps of CR for less than 1) of each other.

As a side note, the "3 equal enemies" encounters work out to about CR = level / 2 in high T1/T2 ranges for hard encounters. And consistently 4-5 per adventuring day (4.5 +- 0.2).

I haven't run the numbers, but I'd guess that for 6 you'd have about level/3 or level/4 CRs.

All this assumes you're level 3+. 1 and 2 are super squishy.

[Tanarii]

D&D isn't a survival simulator. The players are looking for the exact same thing the DM is: exciting and memorable play. If the PCs are curb-stomping the content with little sense of risk or excitement, whether due to class mix, equipment use, or otherwise, changing up the challenges is a boon to the players, not a punishment.
Of course, upping the HPs changes the CR. So it means either giving out XP faster, or not giving them the fair reward for the challenge.

[Trickshaw]

Here are some spells particularly useful against fighters, barbarians and any other character with a weak Wis, Int or Cha modifier. This list is not comprehensive and only applies to the spell list of the Warlock per the OP's example given.

Charm Person (Wis)

- Has the added benefit of dropping the Barbarian out of Rage as well. Narrate it as such:


"You blink with disbelief, standing before you is your good friend. How could you have forgotten? Having come to your senses you realize you & your companions have made a grave mistake. This is no temptress of evil. As your blood rage settles & you come to this realization your friend calls out, 'Help me! Please!' You must make haste and act before your companions do something you will never forgive yourself for!"
Hypnotic Pattern (Wis)

- Heavens help the group where everyone fails their saving throw.
Feeblemind (Int)

- High level spell so use with caution.

- With spells like these I never tell the group what spell was used. If they wish to identify what's wrong with their comrade they need to make an arcana (arcane magic) or religion (divine magic) to determine the spell and possible counters to said spell. Xanathar's suggest the DC for such spells be 15 + spell level. So in this case an Arcana check with a DC of 23.
Suggestion (Wis)

- "Quickly, now! Go back to town and get help. You & your companions are clearly out matched!"Fear (Wis)

- Don't forget that the affected creature drops anything it's holding. This includes weapon(s) and/or shield.
Banishment (Cha)

- Probably the most troublesome spell you can throw at a party.

Eyebite (Wis)

- Niiiiiice.

[Pex]

D&D isn't a survival simulator. The players are looking for the exact same thing the DM is: exciting and memorable play. If the PCs are curb-stomping the content with little sense of risk or excitement, whether due to class mix, equipment use, or otherwise, changing up the challenges is a boon to the players, not a punishment.

You do that by using higher CR encounters the PCs can handle based on their skill, not changing a monster's statistics just because a barbarian exists. In a vacuum there's nothing wrong with changing monster statistics. What matters is why the DM is doing it. Changing one monster's statistics is one thing. Give a particular goblin 14 hit points for all I care as long as you account for it being tougher in creating the encounter and XP. If you're doing it for every monster just because a player chose to play a class, that's not adjudication. That's the DM overcompensating for his own lack of skill. Any DM needs to learn how to create and run encounters well. You don't learn by being scared a character exists and overreacting.

[Trickshaw]

Of course, upping the HPs changes the CR. So it means either giving out XP faster, or not giving them the fair reward for the challenge.

The key word in that sentence.

Firstly, average HP listed is exactly that, average. You can easily bump the monster's HP up to max without affecting its CR at all in most cases. In those borderline cases it would increase by 1 CR at best (for a recent example I used, see: Adult Green Dragon). The rule of thumb I use is Max HP - 10%. If you go off that rule of thumb you'll be safe without changing the CR on any creature (that I've come across/used so far). Assuming you're using the DMG to modify monsters (see pg. 274).

Secondly, if an encounter isn't a challenge, then the group doesn't get much (if any) experience. That's why I hand out experience by challenge experienced and not Challenge Rating. The exception I make for this is if the group came up with a particularly ingenious tactic or strategy that just laid waste to said monster/encounter. For those instances they get full experience. Sometimes I'll even attach a bonus to it. But if they walk into a fight, and thanks to amazing rolls, just wipe the floor with the encounter. Well, you don't LEARN or ADVANCE yourself in your profession/hobbies when a given task presents no challenge. The same goes for working out/body building. You don't progress if you don't PUSH yourself.

The same goes for D&D.

Otherwise you have what I call the "MMO phenomenon" whereas a group of adventurers could and/or would just walk into "X" forest and "farm" low CR creatures for years until they reached lvl 20. That idea is absolutely absurd to me and anyone who advocates for xp rewards regardless of challenge posed or experienced is advocating for this exact ideal. If a given task or event is trivial it's not pushing you or making you any better at a given task. You've come to, what's literally called in this regard, a "plateau". The only way to break a "plateau" is to either "change or challenge". This applies to pretty much every profession, trade, sport, hobby or pass time that you can name. Ergo why motivational posters exist.

Thirdly, if you use a milestone or similar xp behind the scenes type of reward system (i.e. "I'll let you know when you've leveled") then your players level when you decide they level. The point is moot.

[Trickshaw]

Give a particular goblin 14 hit points for all I care as long as you account for it being tougher in creating the encounter and XP.
Goblin's HP is pretty low for it's given CR, AC & DPR. You could actually jack it's HP all the way up to mid 30's without changing it's CR at all.

Just sayin'.

[Ganymede]

You do that by using higher CR encounters the PCs can handle based on their skill, not changing a monster's statistics just because a barbarian exists. In a vacuum there's nothing wrong with changing monster statistics. What matters is why the DM is doing it. Changing one monster's statistics is one thing. Give a particular goblin 14 hit points for all I care as long as you account for it being tougher in creating the encounter and XP. If you're doing it for every monster just because a player chose to play a class, that's not adjudication. That's the DM overcompensating for his own lack of skill. Any DM needs to learn how to create and run encounters well. You don't learn by being scared a character exists and overreacting.

I strongly suspect you've misconstrued a bit of hyperbole.

[MaxWilson]

Charm Person (Wis)

- Has the added benefit of dropping the Barbarian out of Rage as well. Narrate it as such:


"You blink with disbelief, standing before you is your good friend. How could you have forgotten? Having come to your senses you realize you & your companions have made a grave mistake. This is no temptress of evil. As your blood rage settles & you come to this realization your friend calls out, 'Help me! Please!' You must make haste and act before your companions do something you will never forgive yourself for!"

Note that (1) this doesn't prevent the Barb from attacking someone else besides the caster, (2) Charm Person doesn't make the target a "good friend" in your mind, merely a "friendly acquaintance", (3) target has advantage on its save against Charm Person if you or your companions are fighting it (which is when Rage happens).

So it's probably more like, "You blink with disbelief. That's not a crazed death cultist--it's just what's-his-name. Huh. Wonder what he's doing here? Maybe they captured him? Talk to him about it later. For now, you swing your axe at all of the crazed death cultists around what's-his-name. Death to the crazy death cult!"

On the plus side, at least it isn't a concentration spell.

================================================== ===


Goblin's HP is pretty low for it's given CR, AC & DPR. You could actually jack it's HP all the way up to mid 30's without changing it's CR at all.

Just sayin'.

This maybe isn't the greatest example, because the Goblin is already under-CR'ed for its stats. If you give a goblin 30 HP and recompute its CR by DMG rules, it comes out right on the borderline between CR 1 and CR 2, depending on whether you round expected damage (5.5) up to "6-8" or down to "4-5" when reading the table.

[MrStabby]

As mentioned you can use lots of low level casters. This can work quite well. 8-9 apprentice wizards with magic missile can be a shock to those characters who rely on heavy armour.

Generally my casters I play a little defensively. Wall of force, fear, shield, counterspell are often in their repertoire. I also think that the surroundings take a role in what is going on. If your rooms are sufficiently small that you can cross from the door to the bad guy in one turn then you are giving your melee guys a massive advantage. Rooms that are a bit bigger or that have some natural barriers in can offset this advantage.

Feel free to have the caster be prepared - especially anyone with access to any divination or abjuration magic. Throw up a few wards and other defences. A glyph with a fear spell on it will often buy a turn or two.

Illusions are also great. With a caster most spells have a decent enough range. With a battle area with cover you can often split the party - an illusion of the wizard to fight to pull the melee fighters away then the caster can hide from the ranged folks and cast spells at the melee guys (or pop out from cover to attack the ranged guys if there are no readied actions).

Finally shield guardians are pretty much designed for this. Extra AC for the caster, a spell, and pretty tough with some hit point recovery. In conjunction with the shield spell on the caster this can begin to make some hits miss. The spell on the guardian can be in keeping with the theme of the caster but there are a lot of pretty solid options out there - polymorph can be fun, banishment is good (but less fun for the player), black tentacles can make a fight a lot harder.

To run casters quickly there are some things I ignore. Things like spell slots for all but the highest power spells they have. Less bookkeeping and almost not effect on the fight unless it is a really long one.

[MeimuHakurei]

The key word in that sentence.

Firstly, average HP listed is exactly that, average. You can easily bump the monster's HP up to max without affecting its CR at all in most cases. In those borderline cases it would increase by 1 CR at best (for a recent example I used, see: Adult Green Dragon). The rule of thumb I use is Max HP - 10%. If you go off that rule of thumb you'll be safe without changing the CR on any creature (that I've come across/used so far). Assuming you're using the DMG to modify monsters (see pg. 274).

Secondly, if an encounter isn't a challenge, then the group doesn't get much (if any) experience. That's why I hand out experience by challenge experienced and not Challenge Rating. The exception I make for this is if the group came up with a particularly ingenious tactic or strategy that just laid waste to said monster/encounter. For those instances they get full experience. Sometimes I'll even attach a bonus to it. But if they walk into a fight, and thanks to amazing rolls, just wipe the floor with the encounter. Well, you don't LEARN or ADVANCE yourself in your profession/hobbies when a given task presents no challenge. The same goes for working out/body building. You don't progress if you don't PUSH yourself.

The same goes for D&D.

Otherwise you have what I call the "MMO phenomenon" whereas a group of adventurers could and/or would just walk into "X" forest and "farm" low CR creatures for years until they reached lvl 20. That idea is absolutely absurd to me and anyone who advocates for xp rewards regardless of challenge posed or experienced is advocating for this exact ideal. If a given task or event is trivial it's not pushing you or making you any better at a given task. You've come to, what's literally called in this regard, a "plateau". The only way to break a "plateau" is to either "change or challenge". This applies to pretty much every profession, trade, sport, hobby or pass time that you can name. Ergo why motivational posters exist.

Thirdly, if you use a milestone or similar xp behind the scenes type of reward system (i.e. "I'll let you know when you've leveled") then your players level when you decide they level. The point is moot.

Many monsters are, judging by the DMG's monster building guideline, strongly lopsided towards damage over HP. So if battles are over too quickly, lowering damage and increasing HP is a way to increase duration without altering CR.

The second point is a very dangerous guideline to adjudicate exp by because then your players will have to metagame to keep the DM from screwing them out of exp - not getting exp from very low level encounters is fine (something that 3.5 did), but beating a boss by taking advantage of a weak spot the DM didn't think of and getting no exp or loot because the DM is salty is terrible. You don't want to put an eyepatch over the Ranger's functional eye, tie bells into your Rogue's hair or have your Hexblade not use their class features in combat.

Milestone exp is pretty fair and also allows you to boost the player's levels if they lag behind or postpone levels on an exceptional group.

[Pelle]

Casters are squishy and dangerous, so players will naturally try to gank them fast. Don't expect them to survive many rounds in a combat, and you'll be fine. Just make a mental note on which of their spells to use first.

Strong magic users should use their magic to avoid fighting the PCs in personal combat and risking their lives. So if they are in a fight, they have already lost. It's a little anti-climatic to never have long tactical fights with spellcasters, but don't worry about it. You can look at them as an encounter timer, the PCs have x number of rounds to neutralize the spellcaster, otherwise it will have time to cast these dangerous spells.

[Trickshaw]

Note that (1) this doesn't prevent the Barb from attacking someone else besides the caster, (2) Charm Person doesn't make the target a "good friend" in your mind, merely a "friendly acquaintance", (3) target has advantage on its save against Charm Person if you or your companions are fighting it (which is when Rage happens).

1.) The OP’s post gave me the impression that he was having issues with lone casters vs. his party so my responses were tailored as such. Unless you mean the Barb wants to attack his own party in which case I won’t stop a player if that’s his interpretation.

2.) Semantics. I don’t argue semantics. That’s the purview of those with weak arguments.

3.) The barb can have advantage. The wager is still in the DM’s favor vs. weak Wis targets.


If you give a goblin 30 HP and recompute its CR by DMG rules, it comes out right on the borderline between CR 1 and CR 2, depending on whether you round expected damage (5.5) up to "6-8" or down to "4-5" when reading the table.

Uh, no. That’s grossly incorrect.

According to pg 274 of the DMG, modifying monsters, you can jack the goblin’s HP all the way up to mid 30’s without changing its CR rating up or down.

A DPR of 5 (which is listed in the monster manual) is squarely in the 1/4 range. It has a +4 to hit. The bonus suggested for a 1/4 CR monster is +3. It explicitly states that if the bonus is TWO or MORE then the suggested listed bonus you should adjust ONECR up. Which, it is not.

At worst, if a goblin did have a +5/6 to hit bonus (which I need to repeat that it does NOT) then it would adjust up to 1/2 CR. NOT 1 or even, laughably, 2.

[Tanarii]

According to pg 274 of the DMG, modifying monsters, you can jack the goblin’s HP all the way up to mid 30’s without changing its CR rating up or down.Nimble Escape increases the effective AC by 4 assuming it can hide every round, so a defensive CR at the bottom of CR 1/4, plus two steps to the bottom of CR 1.

Same on the offensive side. So from half way up CR 1/4 to half way up CR 1.

So goblins should apparently be CR 1. Assuming they can hide every round using Nimble Escape.

Edit: but your point on HPs being possible to increase within the same CR is totally a valid one. I'd not considered that. And the brackets are pretty wide.

[Trickshaw]

The second point is a very dangerous guideline to adjudicate exp by because then your players will have to metagame to keep the DM from screwing them out of exp.

This is only my opinion on this particular statement. I do not make this opinion as an afront to you nor do I presume that the following was what you meant.

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Firstly, any player that is “meta gaming” to keep track of xp in *my* game will be sorely at task. Because 90% of my monsters are reskinned, so good luck figuring out what stat block I’m using in the MM.

Secondly, that guy can literally (not figuratively) kiss my a** & get the f**k out of my house. If you got a problem with how I run my game, fine, talk to me about it. You know, be a man. But if you’re doing this covert mathematica in order to make sure I’m legit? And then trying to call me out on a perceived short changing?

Hoooo boy...

Dude, players are a dime a dozen. You are not special. You will not be missed. You will not be remembered other than as a hilarious story that starts with, “Remember that whiney b**ch you told to get the f**k out?”

That said, thankfully, I’ve never had this problem. Not once in 30 years. I don’t short change. I don’t “screw” my players. I tell a story and laugh when they change said story. My amusement does not stem from watching players “suffer”.

I do realize that there may be (and probably definitely are) DM’s like this. If you have a DM like this, move on. If you can’t, get a PC and look me up. You can join my online group and see what proper D&D is all about. We actually have an opening.

[MaxWilson]

Uh, no. That’s grossly incorrect.

According to pg 274 of the DMG, modifying monsters, you can jack the goblin’s HP all the way up to mid 30’s without changing its CR rating up or down.

A DPR of 5 (which is listed in the monster manual) is squarely in the 1/4 range. It has a +4 to hit. The bonus suggested for a 1/4 CR monster is +3. It explicitly states that if the bonus is TWO or MORE then the suggested listed bonus you should adjust ONECR up. Which, it is not.

At worst, if a goblin did have a +5/6 to hit bonus (which I need to repeat that it does NOT) then it would adjust up to 1/2 CR. NOT 1 or even, laughably, 2.

You forgot to add in Nimble Escape before calculating CR. Goblin is even the example creature listed in the table on the next page (pg 276 maybe?). It's a very powerful ability, especially since Goblins also have Stealth expertise.

Total effective stats are +8 to hit, AC 19, 5.5 DPR, and 7 HP. Plug that into the table and it comes out at CR 1 or CR 2, depending on whether you round DPR up to 6-8 or down to 4-5.

[Trickshaw]

Nimble Escape increases the effective AC by 4 assuming it can hide every round

Highlighting the operative phrase there.

*IF* said goblins had multiple rounds of survival thanks to hiding, I would most certainly double the XP gained (maybe even triple) if it were a particularly nasty encounter I built. I am not, however, increasing a monsters CR on the ASSUMPTION it’s hiding every round it lives in combat.

Too many goblins have been laid waste on the roadside to warrant it having a laughable wholesale CR2 rating. That’s never happening.

I’m laughing just thinking about it. = )

[Trickshaw]

You forgot to add in Nimble Escape before calculating CR.
I forgot nothing.

I am not BUILDING a monster. I am ADJUSTING an official monster with the official method.

And OFFICIALLY you can increase its HP to 35 without adjusting its CR. Not that I’m advocating that. I would personally, at best, just give them max HP. Like I said, Max HP - 10% is a safe way of adjusting HP without tipping CR one inch.

You may not like it. You may not agree with it. But that is RAW and RAW requires neither your agreement nor approval.

Now if that’s how you want to house rule it, I understand completely and back you 100%. But RAW is RAW is RAW.

Just sayin’.

Also see previous post.

[Rynjin]

@OP: You know you could just...not make macros for every spell, right?

Just say "He casts Fireball". /roll 8d6. Tell the players "Save DC is 16, go."

Apply damage.

Not that hard.