Necromancy assistance?

[XxPhantomBoomYT]

Lately i've been wanting to make a Necromancer, but I don't exactly know where to find the feats to make it the most optimized one! does anyone know about a feat list, or have one, that focuses on the raising of undead?

[Nifft]

The class Dread Necromancer bestows some perks when creating undead (starting at 8th level).

There's also a feat chain that starts with Corpsecrafter (in Libris Mortis, not unexpectedly).

[SangoProduction]

https://www.google.com/search?q=necromancer+guide+3.5&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS556US556&oq=necromancer+guide+3.5&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.8298j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[gorfnab]

Some light reading material that should provide more Necromancer information:
Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733)
Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)
Collection of Necromatic Oddities (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8963)

[XxPhantomBoomYT]

Lately i've been wanting to make a Necromancer, but I don't exactly know where to find the feats to make it the most optimized one! does anyone know about a feat list, or have one, that focuses on the raising of undead?

Libris Mortis is one of the supplemental books i'm assuming?

[Kayblis]

Libris Mortis is one of the supplemental books i'm assuming?

Libris Mortis is THE book for undead. You'll find lots of feats, classes and items to boost minionmancy and necromancy-related spells. The biggest points every necromancer should look into are the Corpsecrafter line of feats and the Rod of Undead Mastery. The feat line boosts undead minions a lot, and the rod lets you control twice as many undead. Those options guarantee the strenght of undead-focused characters no matter how badly you build it. Even a Sorcerer 20 with only Raise Dead is a decent necromancer if you pick those up.

[tiercel]

It occurs to me that a lot of necromancer resources (feats, PrCs, ACFs, etc) focus almost solely on undead minionmancy. Now, before I get a big “duh” (or “BRAAAAAAINS”) in response, necromancy does encompass more than just creating undead; out of curiosity, what would folks with experience in these matters recommend for the necromancer who is less focused on minionmancy and more on, for instance, debuffing and/or self-buffing?

(This doesn’t mean that zero minionmancy, though that could be an interesting necro build - but even one who looks for effective resources other than Corpsecrafter feats, Slaymates, etc.)

[Nifft]

what would folks with experience in these matters recommend for the necromancer who is less focused on minionmancy and more on, for instance, debuffing and/or self-buffing?

a) I'd recommend making a thread with that topic rather than hijacking this one; :smallwink: and

b) Maybe grafts? Maybe body-jacking (Magic Jar) / body-faking (Simulacrum, Astral Projection)? Fear is also a thing.

[Goaty14]

a) I'd recommend making a thread with that topic rather than hijacking this one; :smallwink: and

b) Maybe grafts? Maybe body-jacking (Magic Jar) / body-faking (Simulacrum, Astral Projection)? Fear is also a thing.

I think he meant classes/feats/etc. In which case you're best off with a wizard (Focused Specialist: Necromancy) and the usual metamagic stacking with debuffs.

[Kayblis]

out of curiosity, what would folks with experience in these matters recommend for the necromancer who is less focused on minionmancy and more on, for instance, debuffing and/or self-buffing?

Necromancy is great at debuffing. You also have feats like Fell Drain and Fell Frighten, which can be applied to your usual debuffs as long as you deal damage with the spell(Kelg's Grave Mist is great for it). As a necromancer, you have more options for metamagic reduction, namely Slaymate abuse and more effective use of Metamagic School Focus(since you're focused in one school to begin with), other than the usual. Applying fear is good, but applying layers of negative levels nerfs pretty much anything that's not undead - at which point you should be controlling it instead.

[tiercel]

a) I'd recommend making a thread with that topic rather than hijacking this one; :smallwink:

My intent was not to derail so much as to add - the resources (including linked handbooks, as well as PrCs) tend to focus on undead undead undead UNDEAD UNDEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD so much that I thought it might expand the discussion to say "what about things to do OTHER than raise the maximally efficient undying, eternal, forever-growing army of negative-energy-powered body-slaves to CONSUME the WORLD mwuHAhahahaHAhahaHAAAAAAAAH" *cough*

If nothing else, in some campaigns the whole "undead minions schtick" may have RP issues if there are any social/Going to Town sessions, much less if the party includes Lord Brightheart the Brilliant Pelorite, Bane of the Undying (or even just Good alignments in general).


I think he meant classes/feats/etc. In which case you're best off with a wizard (Focused Specialist: Necromancy) and the usual metamagic stacking with debuffs.

I was looking at Focused Specialist and... sure, but at least a couple of its major Necro powers are still minion-focused. For a minion-light build, it feels like there might be better options, but I'm just not sure what.


Necromancy is great at debuffing. You also have feats like Fell Drain and Fell Frighten, which can be applied to your usual debuffs as long as you deal damage with the spell(Kelg's Grave Mist is great for it). As a necromancer, you have more options for metamagic reduction, namely Slaymate abuse and more effective use of Metamagic School Focus(since you're focused in one school to begin with), other than the usual. Applying fear is good, but applying layers of negative levels nerfs pretty much anything that's not undead - at which point you should be controlling it instead.

This kind of playstyle is what I was thinking of - it's not necessarily opposed to minionmancy, but it seems entirely feasible to play a necromancer who just doesn't even *like* undead, and may use Summon Undead or the occasional Animate Dead for a specific purpose, but doesn't want to dedicate significant amounts of build to minions because it's not the major focus, because the character doesn't like undead, because it "feeds the bad rep of necromancers," whatever.

That and if nothing else, at some point a minion-focused necromancer is going to want something to do other than "yeah, yeah, go forth my minions and destroy," especially if he ever winds up facing off against Lord Brightheart and his +1 holy undead bane heavy flail of disruption. (Well, that and at some point, especially if you aren't minionmancing, you want workarounds for death ward -- which comes online earlier than true seeing or mind blank.)

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay so Necromancy, certainly my favorite school of magic. First you need to decide on what type of necromancer you want to be. So lets split it up into a couple paths. Notably you can have multiple of these paths and often times which class you take doesn't matter too much.

1) Hordes: Spamming out tons of mindless undead or just a few powerful ones like zombie dragons. This path is focused on things like animate dead/command undead (The spell not the rebuke ability)

2) Elites: Getting super high end undead minions via rebuke undead or other methods of getting high end intelligent troops. Can be brutally effective to the point where after defeating a mini boss or a BBEG of an arc you can proceed to animate that corpse and have it as an intelligent minion stronger than what you just fought, (Warning this level of optimization has a tendency to break campaigns so don't do it if it's not a high end campaign)

3) Debuffing. Necromancy is great at debuffing. In general boosting save DC's or focusing on enervation leads to the best results. Get some metamagic reducers and arcane thesis on enervation and you can get a split rayed, empowered enervation fairly cheaply. Getting it much much higher is also possible if you focus your entire build on it.


Now lets look at tools needed to succeed on each path. Notably a LOT of necromancy optimization is item based rather than class based. As well as the tools that you need to do well on each path can be grabbed by quite a few classes.

Hordes/Elites: Both of these benefit greatly from desecrate (+2 HP/HD if cast before you animate undead) as well as the corpse crafter feat. The rest of the corpse crafter feats are kinda meh and can be safely ignored (Destructive retribution can be amusing though). A neat trick with desecrate is taking the Fell Energy Metamagic feat which modifies a spell such that "Any numerical bonus granted by a spell modified with this feat increases by +2 for all undead creatures it affects". Apply it to desecrate and it's (+1 HP/HD to undead animate in this area, doubled if it's within range of a permanent altar) becomes +3/6 HP/HD. A massive boost. I suggest getting a lesser metamagic rod with it when you can as it is a great boost to survivability.

Other useful spells/tools: Black sand deals 1d4 negative energy to anyone touching it and anyone killed by blacksand has their entire body turned into black sand. It can be created for a limited time by a 3rd level cleric spell as well. Hire a cleric/cast it yourself and have it kill a cow or horse or some other large cheap animal. Then the creature's entire mass becomes black sand and you can place it in the boots of your minions for free cheap fast healing. And yourself if you are undead/tomb tainted.

Hordes: This is the path that needs animate dead to create it's minions. In general skeletons are better due to maneuverability and ability to take multiple actions and attacks. In general, create zombies if you need a giant meat shield from something with only one attack and high natural armor, otherwise make skeletons. Zombie Dragons are excellent creations and are an exception to this rule (They get to keep their breath weapon and are treated differently see Draconomicon for details).

In order to really make a lot of undead you need some way of getting animate dead without paying ridiculous costs in onyx. Getting animate dead as an SLA which ignores material components is the classic way and there are multiple ways to do so.

Pale Master (PRC that loses 1 spellcasting level from Libris Mortis)
Horned Harbinger (Non spellcasting progression PRC from Faiths and Pantheons)
Dwemorkeeper (PRC with somewhat annoying prerequites can turn spells into SU abilities. Great PRC all around really. From Complete Divine)
Spell Stiching (A template you can apply to grant undead SLA's. Apply it to yourself or a high wis minion. From Complete Arcane)
Warlocks (They get a lesser invocation that can create undead for free but they have a limited duration. From Complete Arcane)
Fell Animate (Metamagic Feat that causes the spell to reanimate zombies if you kill someone with it. Can be the earliest way to animate dead if starting at level 1. Can't animate skeletons though. From Libirs Mortis)


These are the general ways, I am sure there are more. Now that you can animate undead you probably want to get around that small 4 HD/Caster Level limit that the animate dead spell has. Luckily there are multiple ways to do so.


Dread Necromancers can control 4+Charisma Modifier per Class Level (Not caster level) at 8th level. This is a hilariously large amount of undead. They are from Heroes of Horror.
Rod of Undead Mastery doubles the amount of undead you can control for 10k (Libris Mortis).
Command Undead (The spell Not the Rebuke ability) is the big one though. It lets you charm an undead creature as charm person. However, it lasts 1 day/level and works 100% of the time no save on mindless undead and they obey you 100% of the time including suicidal orders. Get chain spell either on a lesser metamagic rod or just as a feat and you can control CL amount of undead of any HD for 1 day/level. This is more undead than you can possibly want. Watch out for dispel magic though.


Some old guides recommend using deathbound domain. Don't bother, the "Trick" abuses the wording of the animate dead spell and it does work but it barely grants you anymore undead and it doesn't work with other methods that are waaaay more reliable.



Elite: This is the path where you get high level intelligent undead. For this you mostly need rebuke undead, animate dread warrior and create undead.

A lot of people think Rebuke Undead is terrible. You can command any undead half your level? Thats terrible! Undead have vastly inflated HD often have turn resistance and thus you can rarely get anything worthwhile out of regular rebuke undead. However, items can turn rebuke undead from worthless to amazingly broken. Two in particular, the Lyre of Restful Soul (Libris Mortis) and Rod of Defiance (MiC) both reduce undead around them’s turn resistance by 4 and can reduce an undead to negative turn resistance. That means together they can reduce an 8 HD undead like a mummy to a singular HD (I am assuming there is a minimum 1 HD though I am not sure thats RAW) and allow a level 2 cleric to rebuke and command the mummy. Do this to bone creatures (covered below) and you can easily control anything you fight and kill. There are other items such as Phylactery of undead turning (+4 turn/rebuke levels) rod of the netherworld (+3 rebuke levels) and others which can boost your rebuking level even higher letting you rebuke and command very high level enemies if you have the money for it.

Now what happens when the rod/lyre’s effect is over? You still have control of the undead but it’s a vague spot in the rules to how many HD it currently takes up in your rebuke undead pool. Boosting an undead’s turn resistance doesn’t make you lose control of the undead (Otherwise Bolster Undead would be a terrible ability) so it stands to reason it only takes up 1 HD in your undead pool.

Create Undead is the spell you are going to use to animate Bone Creatures (BoVD). Bone creatures are basically skeletons that keep all their abilities that they had when they were alive. They have no turn resistance and some pretty good stat boosts/abilities. Corpse creatures are also decent but those are for melee bruisers which you have mindless undead for. Rebuke undead is for enemy spell casters or monsters with interesting abilities.

Animate Dread Warrior animates one humanoid as a dread warrior. A template that makes the creature take a substantial bit of int/charisma penalty and makes them pretty dumb but it’s permanent and they keep all their abilities they had in life and you can have infinite. It costs a boatload of XP to cast though (250 XP/HD of the undead). Get it as an SLA via spell stitched or from another method to bypass it if you want to spam the ability.




Debuffing: Necromancy focuses on either save or lose spells or negative levels. For save or lose spells there are a variety of good options. Using chain spell to make single target debuffs hit multiple enemies is very valuable. But for the most part this necromancy path involves boosting your save DC (High ability scores, plenty of feats like spell focus, etc etc) and casting good spells.

Good necromancy debuffs include.
1st:
Ray of Enfeeblement: Massive reduction in strength

2nd:
Ghoul Touch: Melee touch save or die with a 2nd level spell slot
Scare: Target Multiple creatures and make them “Not my problem for X rounds”.

3rd:
Bestow Curse: Can have great uses out of combat if you have someone tied up and can stack a ton of curses on them. Not the best use in combat since it requires a touch attack and a failed save AND doesn’t instantly end at least one target.
Stinking Cloud: Okay not necromancy but it and other spells like it at are very valuable to a necromancer as

4th:
Fear: Aoe “Not my problem for 10 rounds” spell
Burning Blood: Every round force the target to save or be useless that round

5th:
Spirit Wall: AoE constant fear effect + negative levels
Magic Jar: HAHAHAHHA this spell is busted beyond all measure. It basically just gives you a puppet body that can be an enemy. Even if the puppet doesn’t die you are still 100% fine and can possess another enemy. Just read it and realize how insane this spell is.

6th:
Flesh shiver: Save or be stunned/nasueated. If the target has less HD than your CL it is stunned no save. A no save stun can be very useful (Remember Negative levels reduce the targets HD for calculations. Hit the boss with a split ray empowered enervation then stun lock him for the rest of the fight)


Negative level focused necromancers use two main methods. One is just metamagic stacking on Enervation to get a Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Split Rayed Enervation and then one shot anything not immune to negative levels. I generally recommend against this as it leads to the DM either sending only monsters who are immune to NL’s against you and you are useless or you one shot every boss you can hit. It’s not exactly fun. A split ray/empowered enervation is a lot cheaper build wise to pull off and crippling any enemy you hit with no saving throw is quite good.

Use Arcane Thesis (Enervation) and Practical Metamagic to pull this off successfully. Divine Metamagic can also work if you are a divine spell caster.

The other option is to use the Fell Drain metamagic on spells that can inflict AOE damage or damage every round. Fell Drain causes those spells to inflict a singular negative level when they deal damage. A Fell Draining Persisted Cloud of Knives gives you a 1/round free action attack that inflicts a negative level. It can be quite effective. Kellgore’s grave mist is a very popular option as well. It’s somewhat vague if an AOE spell like Kellgore’s grave mist that deals damage every round can inflict multiple negative levels on a creature in the mist for several rounds. Ask your DM on that.

A small not on negative levels though. Anyone killed by negative levels rises as a wight in 24 hours. So make sure to destroy the body if you don’t want a wight horde popping up behind you and divinations revealing you are responsible.




So now that I have gone over that, which classes are good for what type of necromancy?

Dread Necromancer has: Command Undead (The Spell) and Animate Dead so it’s a good Horde Necromancer. It has Create Undead and Rebuke undead and can have Animate Dread Warrior, so it can be an elite necromancer and has most of the stuff required to debuff as well. Really all around good choice. Really can only be a necromancer but thats not too much of an issue.

Wizard: Has Command Undead/Animate Dead so it can be a horde necromancer it doesn’t have rebuke undead so it’s hard to pull off the elite path with Wizard but it has extra metamagic feats so pulling off the debuffing path is easier with the Wizard. Plus it’s a wizard… you have other non necromancy options.

Sorcerer: Worse than Wizard in every way. Still good but you probably want a dread necromancer over the sorcerer.

Clerics have animate dead but don’t have command undead (The spell) on their spell list. But with the Divine Magician ACF they can exchange one domain and pull 1 Necromancy spell for each spell level and put it on their spell list so they can get it. They have rebuke/command undead and create undead so they can be very competent elite necromancers too. They have a limit on their debuffing compared to Wizards but can pick up Enervation via Divine Magician ACF so they are still fairly good at it.

Artificers: With downtime Artificers can do anything, necromancy is no different. They effectively have access to every spell and they get the earliest access to animate dead (1st level they can craft a scroll of it). They don’t natively have access to rebuke/command undead but they can create constructs which can (Sacred Guardians from Bestiary of Krynn can rebuke/command undead as a cleric of their HD). Doesn’t have the same flavor and can be overwhelming to new players. Very difficult to play well but it does make it easier to get all the necromancy items a player wants.

Voodan (From Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends) : A super obscure class I am mentioning because I just found it and I liked the fluff. It has rebuke undead (And can rebuke other things like Fey/Outsiders) and access to the Cleric’s, Druids and Ranger’s list for necromancy spells. Great for Debuffing and can Elite minionmancy but struggles to keep up without command undead (The spell)



Prestige Classes:

Master of Shrouds: 9/10th progression for spell casting and increases rebuke undead. Grants the ability to spawn hordes of incorporeal undead. Cool class

Horned Harbinger: Only way to be a real minionmancy necromancer without spell casting. Useful if you don’t want to play a spell caster but still want undead minions.

Palemaster: 9/10th progression for spell casting and at second level grants free animate dead 1/day as a SLA (So no material component costs).



Homebrew: (Cough Self-Promotion Cough)
Lord of the Uttercold: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?195580-Lord-of-the-Uttercold-3-5-Base-Class-PEACH) A melee frost knight which grants itself hordes of undead and a fortress eventually. Great at minionmancy less so at debuffing.
Shade Channeler: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263065-The-Shade-Channeler-3-5-Base-Class) A tier 1 necromancer which has less spells per day but can augment/command undead more effectively than other necromancers.
Necromantic Codex: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266947-The-Necromantic-Codex-Necromancy-Base-Classes-Items-Spells-and-more!-PEACH) A collection of a variety of undead monsters you can animate and three new necromancy themed classes, (Death Knight: Exactly what it sounds like on the tin. Plague Witch: Debuffing based necromancy, Black Blood Vanguard: Debuffing Melee Combatant). Some new items/feats as well.

[Acanous]

Be absolutely certain to create a Serpentyr and Magic Jar it as soon as feasible. You like double actions per round right? I know you do.
That being said, much like conjugation, necromancy has a whole lot of options within the school, and then a whole lot more from minions.
Flameskulls are little flying skulls that are on fire and shoot scorching ray. Have a bunch. Also they are casters and have a caster level, fancy that. You can make or buy oil of Animate Dead as a cleric spell, and using a potion or oil doesn’t require a UMD check. Use flameskulls as your lieutenants, each with a small squad of flaming skeletons/zombies to be thematic.
Oh, and flameskulls come back when killed, unless they pour holy water on it. It’s helpful.

Necrosis Carnex. It’s an undead combat medic that also deals negative energy as touch attacks and has an aura that hurts enemy saving throws. Really a must have in any undead army.

Is Pathfinder available? Witchfires are crazy good, and then you have them form a coven. Bloody skeletons are also nice, since they don’t stay dead.

[Silva Stormrage]

Be absolutely certain to create a Serpentyr and Magic Jar it as soon as feasible. You like double actions per round right? I know you do.
That being said, much like conjugation, necromancy has a whole lot of options within the school, and then a whole lot more from minions.
Flameskulls are little flying skulls that are on fire and shoot scorching ray. Have a bunch. Also they are casters and have a caster level, fancy that. You can make or buy oil of Animate Dead as a cleric spell, and using a potion or oil doesn’t require a UMD check. Use flameskulls as your lieutenants, each with a small squad of flaming skeletons/zombies to be thematic.
Oh, and flameskulls come back when killed, unless they pour holy water on it. It’s helpful.

Necrosis Carnex. It’s an undead combat medic that also deals negative energy as touch attacks and has an aura that hurts enemy saving throws. Really a must have in any undead army.

Is Pathfinder available? Witchfires are crazy good, and then you have them form a coven. Bloody skeletons are also nice, since they don’t stay dead.

Oh ya Necrosis Carnexs are cool. Very much a horror vibe from stitching multiple corpses together. I still think Black Sand production is better way of healing since it's effectively passive.

With pathfinder don't forget Blood Money to make animate dead free as well.

[Falontani]

snip

Just stopping in to give you a +1
Don't forget Death Master from Dragon Compendium. It's a great base class for necromancy in any form. You start with an undead minion that grows with you like a druid animal companion. You get most of the good necromancy spells early (Like animate dead) and can very easily go down any of the three paths.

There is technically a fourth necromancy path, but it pairs well with debuffer: save or suck. Spells like slay living, destruction, finger of death, circle of death, and wail of the banshee fall in this path. Generally this path is frowned upon and doesn't do well.

If you go horde! Invest in destructive retribution. Animate all the flameskulls you want. Let them do their thing, and let them explode in negative energy. Iirc they are immune to fire, and have decent wisdom.

[Acanous]

If you go horde! Invest in destructive retribution. Animate all the flameskulls you want. Let them do their thing, and let them explode in negative energy. Iirc they are immune to fire, and have decent wisdom.

Yeah exploding minions that come back later for free are all kinds of winning

[Silva Stormrage]

Just stopping in to give you a +1
Don't forget Death Master from Dragon Compendium. It's a great base class for necromancy in any form. You start with an undead minion that grows with you like a druid animal companion. You get most of the good necromancy spells early (Like animate dead) and can very easily go down any of the three paths.

There is technically a fourth necromancy path, but it pairs well with debuffer: save or suck. Spells like slay living, destruction, finger of death, circle of death, and wail of the banshee fall in this path. Generally this path is frowned upon and doesn't do well.

If you go horde! Invest in destructive retribution. Animate all the flameskulls you want. Let them do their thing, and let them explode in negative energy. Iirc they are immune to fire, and have decent wisdom.

I always forget Death Master is an actual class and not just a convenient list for Aritifcers to get animate dead at 1st level XD.

And you are right Necromancy has a ton of save or dies, I definitely should of mentioned that in that "Boost your save DC's" section.

I actually had never though about the regenerating exploding flameskull idea. Not sure how optimal it is because they eat up your precious rebuke undead pool. But that sure is a cool visual :smalltongue:

[BlackOnyx]

Just a bit of advice from my personal experience: having access to non-necromancy tricks & utilities can be helpful when playing a necromancer.


Clerics (especially cloistered clerics) are great for this; you have access to the entire cleric spell list whether you want to or not. Divination, buffing, healing; it gives the party (and npcs you interact with) a good reason to keep you around even if they don't approve of some of your interests.


Just as well, specializing in necromancy is great...so long as your circumstances allow you to use it. If you're in a setting where leading around hordes of undead is frowned upon/impractical, or if you find yourself fighting a lot of creatures immune to your tricks (i.e. constructs, warded mages), it can be difficult to contribute as often. Branching out into other areas allows you to stay relevant even when you're not dealing with undead.


My current character is a cloistered cleric with a few levels of paragnostic apostle and contemplative. With access to the trickery and knowledge domains (as well as a ton of skill points) he can usually contribute to most situations in some way or another.

[Acanous]

Silva: you can make Flameskulls, you don’t have to rebuke them into service. Given that they also have a caster level and oils of animate dead are a thing, they actually are a net gain to your undead pool.

I’ve used them a few times on necromancers and the exploding/self rezzing thing never gets old.

BlackOnyx: the narrow spell list thing is why I hate dread necromancer as a class. It was almost good and then nope. You’d do better with a sorcerer in most cases, being that there’s really only 5 or 6 necromancy spells you’re going to be spamming with any regularity. (Animate dead, false life, create undead, create greater undead, magic jar and enervation) and I’m not than a few cases you get these spells as SLAs from PRCs or spell stitching.

[Silva Stormrage]

Silva: you can make Flameskulls, you don’t have to rebuke them into service. Given that they also have a caster level and oils of animate dead are a thing, they actually are a net gain to your undead pool.

I’ve used them a few times on necromancers and the exploding/self rezzing thing never gets old.

BlackOnyx: the narrow spell list thing is why I hate dread necromancer as a class. It was almost good and then nope. You’d do better with a sorcerer in most cases, being that there’s really only 5 or 6 necromancy spells you’re going to be spamming with any regularity. (Animate dead, false life, create undead, create greater undead, magic jar and enervation) and I’m not than a few cases you get these spells as SLAs from PRCs or spell stitching.

Ya they are intelligent but I hesitate to animate LE creatures in mass and let them serve me without some sort of control over their actions. Especially if I am using them as suicide bombers.

Dread Necromancers have a few things going for them over sorcerers.

1: Access to rebuke undead, which as I noted above is HUUUGE at mid/high levels
2: Easy access to infinite healing even at low levels
3: At levels 1-2 can function as a fairly tanky front line member in low-mid op parties. Charnel + Chill Touch is actually fairly effective.
4: Easiest method of getting a reliable horde of animate dead cap. A level 8 dread necromancer basically never runs out of undead minions.
5: Has minor class features that can be actually fairly effective. Fear Aura/DR/Auto Improved Familiar can actually be fairly decent. Sure Sorcerers have PRC's but there is a benefit to a single class with class features in simplicity at least.
6: Starts with a martial weapon. Super minor but damn do I like to be able to use a longbow at level 1.

In terms of power... ya being a sorcerer with actual spells and utility and then picking up a few out of combat necromancy spells/a rune staff with those spells. Is going to be vaaastly stronger. But thats the case with Artificers as well really. Just because another class is stronger doesn't mean that there is no point for the weaker one.

[Acanous]

Well I wouldn’t say there’s no point to a DN, they are just a bit underwhelming if what you were going for was “badass master of necromancy”, because really every other necro-capable class is capable of more “mastery”. A necromancer-cleric for example, can prepare create/animate dead one day, mass inflict and some save-or-sucks the next, and has more access to necromancy prestige class options, as well as cool stuff from their domains... like undeath, for example. DNs have a few neat tricks- the DR is really nice and of course being a warlock with touch attacks from day 1 is helpful... but as you get up there you start to notice that the master specialist wizard/pale master is outdoing you, or the cleric/wizard/true necromancer, as much casting as *that* loses. It’s a minor nitpick I know, but for players looking to really give necromancy a go, it’s presented as the necromancer’s necromancer, when really it’s EZbake.

[Feantar]

First a disclaimer; if you plan to animate things with competency, you render the melee fighting classes useless. If you're okay with that, read on.

If you seek to optimise the undead you're animating, the total bonuses I managed to find are these:

Corpsecrafting Feats (Libris Mortis, 6 in total) + 8th Level Dread Necromancer (Libris Mortis) + Specialist Wizard Variant in Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) + Animating within Desecrate Area


Speed: +10
Initiative: +4
Ability Scores: +4 (Enhancement) Str & Dex
HP: +6/HD
Turn Resistance: +4
Natural Attacks: +1d6 Cold, Death Throes(1d6/2 HD cold)
AC: +2 Natural

Cost: Sacrificing 1 level to become a Necromancer Specialist Wizard, and spending 6 feats which means... without flaws, taint and deals with devils, you could gain this by level 15, 12 if you're a Human or Stronheart Halfling. With any of those in their standard configuration, and with a mild smell of camembert, you could do it by level 9.

Anyway, a completely horde focused necromancer could the best of the above; I am not including dragon and dungeon because most people don't use them, but if you're interested:




Ability Scores: +2 Str
AC: +2 Natural


There are also the necromantic feats from Dragon 312, but those actually increase the cost of controlling the undead, which kind of makes them less useful for a Horde master, but still useful for an elite animator. I will not include the bonuses here, as I don't have access to it right now.
Then you get to have the debate on whether animating yourself as a necropolitan through the ritual of Circumigration counts as a spell. Have Fun! :P

[BlackOnyx]

Then you get to have the debate on whether animating yourself as a necropolitan through the ritual of Circumigration counts as a spell. Have Fun! :P


Well, if not, you always have Craft Contingent Spell and the Crypt Spawn template.

[Acanous]

Well, if not, you always have Craft Contingent Spell and the Crypt Spawn template.

I suggest Juju zombie.

[Falontani]

Research a custom version of create undead. All of my dms have allowed me to research a way to create any type of undead, I just had to create a template to do it or use the creature as is and modify the costs of create undead.
Ex: creating a vampire with create undead required the target to be a humanoid/monstrous humanoid in life, have 5+ hd, and to have died by con drain/damage. Then I perform the normal create undead spell and I could choose to create a vampire

More research and I could learn to apply the Gravetouched Ghoul template to a creature instead of turning them into a regular ghoul with create undead. Etc. For some types of undead it required greater create undead. The hardest one that I had required the corpse of a solar which had first been drain/damaged to 0 charisma, brought to the negative energy plane, put on desecrated and unhallowed ground, and then had me cast create greater undead in order to create an angel of decay.

My dms also allowed me to siphon xp that I would earn towards any undead involved in the encounter to advance them level as well

[noob]

Research a custom version of create undead. All of my dms have allowed me to research a way to create any type of undead, I just had to create a template to do it or use the creature as is and modify the costs of create undead.
Ex: creating a vampire with create undead required the target to be a humanoid/monstrous humanoid in life, have 5+ hd, and to have died by con drain/damage. Then I perform the normal create undead spell and I could choose to create a vampire

More research and I could learn to apply the Gravetouched Ghoul template to a creature instead of turning them into a regular ghoul with create undead. Etc. For some types of undead it required greater create undead. The hardest one that I had required the corpse of a solar which had first been drain/damaged to 0 charisma, brought to the negative energy plane, put on desecrated and unhallowed ground, and then had me cast create greater undead in order to create an angel of decay.

My dms also allowed me to siphon xp that I would earn towards any undead involved in the encounter to advance them level as well

Why would you ever reanimate a solar as an angel of decay when you can without ritual cast greater create undead to turn it into a bone creature that have all the powers of a solar(which is a better powerset than the one of an angel of decay)

[Feantar]

Well, if not, you always have Craft Contingent Spell and the Crypt Spawn template.

Isn't Cryptspawn LA: -? Or am I remembering wrong?

[Falontani]

Why would you ever reanimate a solar as an angel of decay when you can without ritual cast greater create undead to turn it into a bone creature that have all the powers of a solar(which is a better powerset than the one of an angel of decay)

truth, but a bone creature solar doesn't sound as epic as an angel of decay ^_^ (and that was in character preference, bone creature solar is definitely awesome)

[Bonzai]

I can second the Flame Skulls. They are great, and regen when they are destroyed. I spell stitched mine to turn it into a suicide bomber with Destruction retribution (4d6 negative energy, reflex half), Un-living weapon (2d6 untyped), Death Throws (4d8 untyped).

One spell that I completely overlooked, was Haunt Shift from Libris Mortis. It takes undead and binds them inside an object. They can only materialize every so often, but there are some fun things that you can do with it. It solves the problem of how to transport your hordes of lesser undead. Worried about some one targeting your slaymate? Haunt shift it to a coin and keep it in your pocket. You don't even have to control them. Bind them to something, put it in your bag of holding, and take it out and lob it at a group of enemies and let the hijinks ensue.

Also for arcane casters, I have found two ways to get turn/rebuke. First there is a helm in MoF that let's you turn/rebuke as a tenth lvl cleric. Second, there are a pair of dragon magazine feats, god touches and divine channeled, that let you turn/rebuke ar half character level.