My Players Won't Read Anything

[Grear Bylls]

Hello friends. I've recently found myself in a conundrum. I've started an Out of the Abyss game fairly recently, and my group has been playing for roughly 5 sessions. However, my players still haven't read anything, it seems. I've told them to read their class, spellcasting rules (if they cast), 173-198 in the PHB (Combat, Adventuring, and more), the spells they will cast, and feats. I've also requested that they read as much flavor of the monster manual that they want, so my encounters won't be a "here's this thing, what's it do? It's probably not foreshadowing anything". However, I doubt that any single one of them has read anything I've said. Our paladin still hasn't read his channel divinity, spell casting rules, or spell options. Our rogue has to be consistently reminded, by me, how sneak attack works. The only person who knows what they're doing is the Chanpion Fighter (surprise) who's been in another game.

This isn't the only problem that I've encountered. I don't think they understand the concept of "roleplaying". Or at least, not how to execute it. All of their characters considered canibalizing several dead duergar the second they ran out of rations. For a normal person, that should be CONSIDERED, not ACCEPTED on there 3rd exhaustion level. They also knew a Kua-Toa settlement would be 2 days away. What they did we be the equivalent of eating a person of a different ethnicity due to not eating for a day. I know I shouldn't do this as a DM, but I stepped in and brought to light what they were considering doing. They also felt absolutely no remorse for accidentally eating some people that they had mistaken for steak.

Additionally, my players are consistently infighting due to different class abilities and equipment. The Rogue was complaining about how he only had a +1 dagger while the fighter had a mace that glowed like a torch and dealt an extra point of fire on a hit. He was complaining about it so badly about how he wanted it, that I had to stop the game and tell him that a mace wouldn't even help. I forgot to mention he was complaining about his "non-magical dagger" in front of our paladin who has nothing. The rogue player also complained about how when they got to pick out 350 gp worth of equipment from an armory, that the melee guys (who need heavy armor and weapons) got a better deal due to him already having a rapier and studded leather.

I also have consistently remind my players to add their attack and skill bonuses to rolls, and they keep talking about crit fails and successes, which I constantly tell them I don't care about.

Lastly, they call me out on calling THEM out for their contrary to alignment characteristics, like eating someone, or killing someone so that they can have more rations for everyone else. They also have told me that I'm oppressive for forcing them to be good, or neutral at worst, in an OUT OF THE ABYSS GAME.

I'm sorry for my tangent rant, but I had to get this off my chest. Can you PLEASE provide some suggestions for how to fix this?

PS: I may come back later to add some more things they do.

[Trickshaw]

Assuming everyone at the table is an adult, just talk to 'em.

ASK for expectations. When you know what their expectations are then you can adjust accordingly. There is a social contract that is agreed to when people sit down to play D&D:

Here is said adventure, you are agreeing to go on said adventure, if you don't want to then we need to adjust. If they want to go off the rails, like way off the rails, there's nothing wrong with that and if you're not prepared for it let them know. "Hey guys, well I'm not prepared for what would happen if you murdered the mayor and kidnapped his wife. So we'll have to pick this up again next session after I've had time to map that course of action out."

Believe it or not this is a very common problem with new players. They start invoking their suppressed desires into their fantasy characters. Murder, theft and all that "bad stuff" is usually the first things to surface once players realize they can do anything they can imagine. But you gotta reign that in as a DM. There's nothing wrong with goofing off but once players take it to that next level I'd simply start rescheduling sessions. I'll would tell the players flat out, "I'm not gonna say you can't do it. But I've prepared for 'X adventure'. If you guys don't want to do 'X adventure', THAT'S FINE, no hard feelings, but you gotta give me time to work around it. You guys wanna play some cards or something instead?" Missing out on a session or two is usually more than enough incentive for a group to stop with the sh*t and start getting serious. Also, remind them that actions have consequences. If they want to play "evil" that's fine. So long as they're aware that even fantasy worlds have repercussions.

As far as rules go, when you get past the point of reasonable doubt and to the point of irritation then it's time to stop helping them. If they don't know what something does or how something for their class works, stop the game and wait for them to figure it out. Go take a leak, grab a bite, whatever. People don't learn very well when answers are handed to them. Explain to the group that you can't DM and run their characters. That said, asking them to familiarize themselves with the monster manual is off base. That's not their purview, that's yours. If you have a problem verbalizing what a given monster looks like, then show them. They don't need to read the monster manual.

REQUIRED READING FOR A PLAYER

- Racial Section for their character
- Class Section for their character
- Chapter 9 PHB (everybody)
- Chapter 10 PHB (Spellcasters)
- Spells (Spellcasters)

Finally, I'm assuming you're a new DM. These things get easier over time. After decades of playing this game, there's nothing that a group has thrown at me that I wasn't able to deal with in seconds. Improvisation is simply a skill you develop over time. Don't let your frustration bleed over onto the table and into your players. That will only build resentment and the game no longer is a game. It's not fun. When you need to take a breather, take a breather. Don't get angry.

Talking with your players is the best advice I can give. Everyone at your table (I'm assuming) is an adult, be adults.

[Pronounceable]

You should prolly just drop it. They very clearly do not want to play DnD so you're just wasting your time and effort. Find other people to play with.

GOLDEN RULE: No game is better than bad game.
Internalize this. It will serve you well.

[LordEntrails]

Look, the game really shouldn't be about the rules. It shouldn't be about the mechanics. It should be about a bunch of friends getting together and having fun. If they don't want to know all the abilities of their character, fine, let them play a simplified version. Don't spend your time or worry about each one of them being able to do things to the best of their class' ability etc.

If they don't know how something works, and your not sure, then tell them you don't remember and that they can look it up and use it next time.

Don't give them access to the monster manual. The players learning the monsters as the characters learn the monsters is part of the fun. Let them make a knowledge or similar check to get character knowledge. The better they role, the more you tell them. Black Puddings are lots of fun the first time you encounter them, if you don't know what their special traits are. If you do, it looses a great deal of fun.

"Hit it with a lightning bolt!" "What, what did it do when I hit him with lighting?" "Uh oh, guys, we need Plan B now!"

[Trickshaw]

Look, the game really shouldn't be about the rules. It shouldn't be about the mechanics. It should be about a bunch of friends getting together and having fun. If they don't want to know all the abilities of their character, fine, let them play a simplified version.
I don't agree with this...

If they don't know how something works, and your not sure, then tell them you don't remember and that they can look it up and use it next time.
...but I do agree with this.

If you're playing with children, the elderly or the differently abled. Ok. Then I agree. But if you're playing with reasonably intelligent individuals with fully functioning and developed brains, it isn't a stretch for them to read and understand about 10-15 pages of content. IF THEY DON'T WANT TO... then play something else.

Because D&D clearly isn't in their wheelhouse. You can still play a roleplaying game and not play D&D. Maybe play some Munchkin or something. I dunno.

[Lombra]

Don't sweat the alignment thing, it's just not worth the trouble. As for the rules themselves, you could make sessions where you all read the rules together when they come up in-game, don't be afraid of losing time this way, it will prevent time loss in the future.

[Falcon X]

I feel you so much. I’m going through Out of the Abyss, and half the players barely know what they are doing.

Try making them cheat sheets. A single page reference that they can look at and not dig all over the book for.

Play up social encounters if they are more about roleplaying than fighting. Always have another way to solve a situation. This will help them if they can’t remember all their abilities.

A few thoughts:
- Let the players make roleplaying taboos like cannibalization. Treat it as part of the characters. They are the types who will compromise that about themselves quickly in difficult situations.
Let them.
Preferably let other people see them and react to it. They need to know that their survival method is considered horrendous by most people. They can still choose to make that call, but they should still be aware what other people would thing.
Heck, have them encounter gluttonous demons who think they should be allies because of their compromise.

- Being cannibalistic does not automatically equal evil in dire survival situations. Highly questionable, yes, but I wouldn’t hinge their alignment on it.

- If they truly are evil: Obviously, OotA favors heroic people because they are the types who will risk their necks going back down to the Underdark to defeat the demons.
Or go out of their way to save the Sbirfneblin or Mychanoids.
However, as a DM, you should be able to find other reasons to motivate them.
Before they get back to topside, there is always the promise of a way out for helping people.
Going back down to the Underdark? The whole world is threatened. Do they really want to not have a world to live in?
Or have King Bruenor or someone else promise them gold, and titles, and women, and whatever else is necessary.
If that doesn’t take, have Gromph Baenre recruit them. Or Graz’zt. Either of those guys can find something to hang over your heads to get you to do what they want.
Of course, then you should drop ways to ultimately kill your oppressor as well...

[pdegan2814]

Honestly, when I read the original post the first question that popped into my head was "Do these folks even want to be playing D&D?" I get that some people don't want to be bothered with a lot of reading, but learning what your character can do is a fundamental part of the game. In fact, it's what makes it a GAME and not just people sitting around a table telling a story. If the Rogue doesn't want to learn how Sneak Attack works, or the Paladin doesn't want to lean what spells he can cast, etc. then maybe D&D isn't the game for them. Unless either they're willing to learn their characters or you're willing to homebrew a VERY simplified version of the game, it doesn't sound like this is a group that will last very long.

[Mordaedil]

Sounds like they are pretty new to the game. Be aware of this and prepare to tutorialize your game around it.

People say that they don't want to play D&D, but that isn't what it reads like to me when I read your post. They are just used to video games automizing a lot of things for them. I recommend using print cards to help them visualize what they can do.

If players complain about someone getting better loot than the others, of course it's kinda silly. But you can either make use of it to get the players to work together or fail together.

Consider encouraging them to think of it as less of a game and more like a real world. "You really want his mace, don't you?" "Yeah." "Maybe you should just take it for yourself? He sleeps pretty heavily at night. You might just be able to get away with it too, if you are careful. But he's going to notice the next morning, isn't he? But it wouldn't be so bad if you are no longer there, would it be?"

Then inform the other players that their thief is starting to look shifty, like he's planning something.

Also point out that a +3 weapon is considered legendary in this game.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Assuming everyone at the table is an adult, just talk to 'em.

ASK for expectations. When you know what their expectations are then you can adjust accordingly. There is a social contract that is agreed to when people sit down to play D&D:

Here is said adventure, you are agreeing to go on said adventure, if you don't want to then we need to adjust. If they want to go off the rails, like way off the rails, there's nothing wrong with that and if you're not prepared for it let them know. "Hey guys, well I'm not prepared for what would happen if you murdered the mayor and kidnapped his wife. So we'll have to pick this up again next session after I've had time to map that course of action out."

Believe it or not this is a very common problem with new players. They start invoking their suppressed desires into their fantasy characters. Murder, theft and all that "bad stuff" is usually the first things to surface once players realize they can do anything they can imagine. But you gotta reign that in as a DM. There's nothing wrong with goofing off but once players take it to that next level I'd simply start rescheduling sessions. I'll would tell the players flat out, "I'm not gonna say you can't do it. But I've prepared for 'X adventure'. If you guys don't want to do 'X adventure', THAT'S FINE, no hard feelings, but you gotta give me time to work around it. You guys wanna play some cards or something instead?" Missing out on a session or two is usually more than enough incentive for a group to stop with the sh*t and start getting serious. Also, remind them that actions have consequences. If they want to play "evil" that's fine. So long as they're aware that even fantasy worlds have repercussions.

As far as rules go, when you get past the point of reasonable doubt and to the point of irritation then it's time to stop helping them. If they don't know what something does or how something for their class works, stop the game and wait for them to figure it out. Go take a leak, grab a bite, whatever. People don't learn very well when answers are handed to them. Explain to the group that you can't DM and run their characters. That said, asking them to familiarize themselves with the monster manual is off base. That's not their purview, that's yours. If you have a problem verbalizing what a given monster looks like, then show them. They don't need to read the monster manual.

REQUIRED READING FOR A PLAYER

- Racial Section for their character
- Class Section for their character
- Chapter 9 PHB (everybody)
- Chapter 10 PHB (Spellcasters)
- Spells (Spellcasters)

Finally, I'm assuming you're a new DM. These things get easier over time. After decades of playing this game, there's nothing that a group has thrown at me that I wasn't able to deal with in seconds. Improvisation is simply a skill you develop over time. Don't let your frustration bleed over onto the table and into your players. That will only build resentment and the game no longer is a game. It's not fun. When you need to take a breather, take a breather. Don't get angry.

Talking with your players is the best advice I can give. Everyone at your table (I'm assuming) is an adult, be adults.

Excellent response. But based on the OP, my first question is "How old are these players, exactly? They're not really behaving like adults, so I wouldn't necessarily assume they are. If they can't do the minimum amount of game prep, figure out how to run their characters, and conduct themselves at the table, I'd agree with the other replies on this thread advising the DM to walk away. Dungeon Masters are not baby sitters.

[Rynjin]

Let me second "drop the game". If you're over a month in (5 sessions, once a week I assume) and they still haven't read even the rules that just pertain to their character, even though you've asked them, they're a lost cause. If you have to do everything for them, make it clear that playing with yourself would be just as much work and a whole lot more satisfying than having to deal with them.

[Malifice]

5 sessions of coddling them and helping?

You're too nice. Implement the following rules:


If a player get a class feature wrong or doesnt know what a spell or class feature does, at the DMs discretion it doesnt work/ fizzles out.
I dont bicker with players about alignment stuff. I pick up an eraser and pencil and write what aligmnent the Gods judge the PCs as on their character sheet.
Players get 10 seconds on their turns to tell the DM what they're doing or thier turn ends and the take the Dodge action (this is more than my players get - they only get 1-2 seconds each!).

[Pelle]

Sounds like teenagers. Just know/ask what their expectations are, and plan accordingly.

You can't really expect any people to read more than the bare minimum. So find out what little is really necessary, and ask them to read only that. IMO, only their character abilities. Combat, monsters, etc is not important, you just adjucate what they want to do when it comes up. If they protest, give them the rulebook and have them look up themselves while you move on. They will learn soon enough. If they don't know their class abilities or the rules, it's on them if they complain about not being able to do stuff, just make them responsible.

As for cannibalism, alignement etc, let them have badwrongfun. Try to let actions have consequences, but if they want to play psychopaths don't complain about it. If it's no fun for you, let them know and threat quitting, but they are not wrong for wanting to play evil characters. Just a mismatch in preference.

[Snivlem]

I see a lot of people are advicing you not walk away from the game, if these people are your friends and you enjoy hanging out with them I would advice you to instead lower your expectations and run the game they want to play instead of what you wanted them to play.

Some players are just playing to have some random fun once in a while, an that's fair. Some people also don't enjoy reading at all. I have friends like that that I've played it once in a while, and I'æve had fun games with them. Your players sure sound like this type.

Some expectations are fair, but I think part of the problem is you started out by asking to much for them. General rules etc. isn't necessary for the average player. They may have been overwhelmed by what you required them to read at first, so they reacted by reading nothing. Just ask them to read and try to remember what abilities they have at their current level. Inform them that unless they learn what they can do, you will keep progression slow because things will get more complicated after a while. You can also sit down with them and instruct them, make simple spreadsheets etc., because some people learn better if someone instruct them.


It also sounds like your players are quite immature and you are expecting a more mature game. I had a game once with the above-mentioned friends who arent really into the hobby and also quite immature, but who enjoy playing once in a while. I had planned an urban story in the City of Towers in Eberron with intrigue etc. Once they arrived in the city, the first thing the PCs did was hijack a skycoach, tip it over to flip out the other passages, and failing to control it, crash and get thrown in jail. Instead of getting frustrated I played along with it and the story evolved with them breaking from jail and getting into the criminal world etc. It wasn't the kind of game I had planned, but it was what my players wanted and they had fun. I also had fun, be cause it can basically be fun no mather what to play a game with people you enjoy playing with.

The one thing that is worrying is the arguing over the magic items, but just let the player discover some flashy dagger he will feel cool with and the problem might be solved...

If you don't enjoy playing with them/hanging out with them, then sure, just get out and try to find another game.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I see a lot of people are advicing you not walk away from the game, if these people are your friends and you enjoy hanging out with them I would advice you to instead lower your expectations and run the game they want to play instead of what you wanted them to play.

Some players are just playing to have some random fun once in a while, an that's fair. Some people also don't enjoy reading at all. I have friends like that that I've played it once in a while, and I'æve had fun games with them. Your players sure sound like this type.

Some expectations are fair, but I think part of the problem is you started out by asking to much for them. General rules etc. isn't necessary for the average player. They may have been overwhelmed by what you required them to read at first, so they reacted by reading nothing. Just ask them to read and try to remember what abilities they have at their current level. Inform them that unless they learn what they can do, you will keep progression slow because things will get more complicated after a while. You can also sit down with them and instruct them, make simple spreadsheets etc., because some people learn better if someone instruct them.


It also sounds like your players are quite immature and you are expecting a more mature game. I had a game once with the above-mentioned friends who arent really into the hobby and also quite immature, but who enjoy playing once in a while. I had planned an urban story in the City of Towers in Eberron with intrigue etc. Once they arrived in the city, the first thing the PCs did was hijack a skycoach, tip it over to flip out the other passages, and failing to control it, crash and get thrown in jail. Instead of getting frustrated I played along with it and the story evolved with them breaking from jail and getting into the criminal world etc. It wasn't the kind of game I had planned, but it was what my players wanted and they had fun. I also had fun, be cause it can basically be fun no mather what to play a game with people you enjoy playing with.

The one thing that is worrying is the arguing over the magic items, but just let the player discover some flashy dagger he will feel cool with and the problem might be solved...

If you don't enjoy playing with them/hanging out with them, then sure, just get out and try to find another game.

To be fair, I don't know that anyone is telling the OP to quit hanging out with his friends. It's just that it's clear he's putting a lot more effort into this D&D game than his players are, which isn't fair to him at all. What I'm suggesting is that he should stop running this game and they should play something that's more fun for all of them. Preferably a game they all know how to play well without arguing about. Much.

[Snivlem]

To be fair, I don't know that anyone is telling the OP to quit hanging out with his friends. It's just that it's clear he's putting a lot more effort into this D&D game than his players are, which isn't fair to him at all. What I'm suggesting is that he should stop running this game and they should play something that's more fun for all of them. Preferably a game they all know how to play well without arguing about. Much.

That is also a fair option, but I think it should be pointed out there is probably things he can try to make the game better if he wants to keep the game going. He obviously wants to or he wouldn't be posting here. I know if it was me, and I wanted to play d&d with my friends, I wouldn't be satisfied playing something else like a boardgame or something instead. I think the "no game is better than a bad game" is very true from a player perspective, because there is only so much you can do to change the game, but as a DM I really think there is a lot you can do to make every game good as long as you enjoy hanging out with the people you are playing with.

[sophontteks]

I had players like that, and I ran ootA too. I really personalized the campaign though, and I worked with the players to make their characters. I think this helped them get into it. By session 3 they read everything they needed and were helping me.

I did custom dreams for each player that were tailored to their tastes. And I helped them make characters that they could relate to. One player, well, he smokes a lot. He plays a stoned monk, a variant on the drunken master. His dream was falling down a rabbit hole. I played White Rabbit as I explained the dream.

One player was really struggling to do a background. Her backstory is that her character is actually trapped inside the sun sword and she's playing an imposter. She was actually hinted at this when a drow tracker caught her and read her mind. She's quite intrigued. Should be interesting when she finds the sword.

The divination wizard, he is a disgraced one, but his crazy theory will come true late in the campaign, and it'll allow him to see how the above player got trapped in a sword. And why they have an unknowing double.

Each player has a custom personal arc I wrote out and I throw breadcrumbs out as they go along. The more personalized it feels, the more they get into their characters. To me the success of 5e really hinges on the background and a lot of new players just mull it over. Really press them with the background and then tailor the campaign to that background.

[Estrillian]

I'm amazed how many people here are responding with "If they won't read the rules they don't want to play D&D", because my (30 year) experience is that many ken roleplayers don't like reading rules, or indeed using rules. They will roll dice if forced, but they don't internalise how it works, and constantly need to be reminded.

I've been running my current 5E campaign since Lost Mines came out. One of my players has been playing that whole time, and although she has gradually come to understand how her attacks and healing spells work, she has never read her entire Cleric spell list, and doesn't really know what half of the spells she doesn't use do. She has trouble with concentration, and always rolls the dice before remembering that she might have Inspiration to use. Another player has been playing a year and literally every fight says "I don't remember how attacking works".

Do either of these people "not want to play D&D"? Emphatically no. They love the game. They travel significant distances just to take part, it is just that their focus is totally elsewhere that the rules. It is on their characters, their story, their interactions with the other players.

Now, this is a divide that is well understood in a lot of roleplaying theory (rules-focussed vs. story-focussed, characters as people vs. characters as playing pieces, and so on), but I've noticed that these forums seem to be very heavily on the rules-centric side. People seldom say "I am so excited to play my new character because he was adopted by Myconoids and thinks that he's a fungus, even though he is an Elf". Instead they say "I am so excited to play my new character because he will have 4 levels of rogue and 2 levels of battle-master, and will have at-will advantage on psychic attacks" - i.e. they are focussed on rules and mechanics.

It sounds to me like your players are loving D&D. They are loving playing their characters, and throwing themselves into this dark and evil place that they find themselves in. i.e. they are focussed on roleplaying, not mechanics.

My advice would be, downplay the mechanics for now. Introduce them gradually. Get people familiar with the one or two spells they are using now, rather than focussing on every spell. Instead of expecting them to read the Players Handbook, introduce rules as you need them. This will require more prompting on your part, yes, but if you do it one rule at a time then it might work.

[Arcangel4774]

Make them look up what they dont knownon the spot. It may be more time consuming at first, but they are more likely to remember than if you remind them.

Someone mentioned having spells fizzle out or other effects fail if they continually do them wrong. I can imagine explaining it as what they think it does starts to happen but reallity itself tries to snap it into how the rules say. Have if they are way off have that snapping destroy the spell. Give some leway for trying to use a spell in a creative way.

[mephnick]

Another player has been playing a year and literally every fight says "I don't remember how attacking works".

Do either of these people "not want to play D&D"? Emphatically no. They love the game. They travel significant distances just to take part, it is just that their focus is totally elsewhere that the rules. It is on their characters, their story, their interactions with the other players.

Now, this is a divide that is well understood in a lot of roleplaying theory (rules-focussed vs. story-focussed, characters as people vs. characters as playing pieces, and so on), but I've noticed that these forums seem to be very heavily on the rules-centric side. People seldom say "I am so excited to play my new character because he was adopted by Myconoids and thinks that he's a fungus, even though he is an Elf". Instead they say "I am so excited to play my new character because he will have 4 levels of rogue and 2 levels of battle-master, and will have at-will advantage on psychic attacks" - i.e. they are focussed on rules and mechanics.


If you don't want to use the rules you're not playing the system. "Story-focused" doesn't mean you lack the adult capacity to learn a few rules. If it's been a year of steady play and a player doesn't know how attacking works I'd suggest medical help immediately.

[Grear Bylls]

Thank you so much everyone for the responses! I will certainly consider most of them. However, a recurring thing I've noticed, is the age thing. I won't disclose it exactly, but...

My players (and I), all barely qualify as teens.

However, I am have been repeatedly told I am the most mature XX year old that people have met, and I do pride myself on that. I've read all the books (PHB XGtErepeatedly for optimization in my games, MM, MToF, and Volos for interesting and cool encounters, and DMG because it's the DMG), and I expect my players to read SOME too. I pour hours of work and effort into my games, and have sculpted custom minis for each player. All I'm asking is that they put in a fraction of the effort I do.

I also have no way to get another group, given that it's currently summer where I'm at and i cant meet others that often.

Now, how to deal with the problem. I've tried telling them that we need to have a session zero, but when I bring it up, my players say that it sounds boring and they don't want to do it, and people always begin blaming others for why we need to talk about this. This is also their first game, but not mine. However, I'm still not the best DM, but I like to think that I'm an awesome role player. It frustrates me when I'm talking to the players, and one of them says, "I roll for persuasion to get him to come with us", and I say, "no, roleplay it out, and I'll tell you when to roll."


Now, this is a divide that is well understood in a lot of roleplaying theory (rules-focussed vs. story-focussed, characters as people vs. characters as playing pieces, and so on), but I've noticed that these forums seem to be very heavily on the rules-centric side. People seldom say "I am so excited to play my new character because he was adopted by Myconoids and thinks that he's a fungus, even though he is an Elf". Instead they say "I am so excited to play my new character because he will have 4 levels of rogue and 2 levels of battle-master, and will have at-will advantage on psychic attacks" - i.e. they are focussed on rules and mechanics.

It sounds to me like your players are loving D&D. They are loving playing their characters, and throwing themselves into this dark and evil place that they find themselves in. i.e. they are focussed on roleplaying, not mechanics.

This is quite contrary to what I first stated. My players don't seem to care about mechanics OR roleplaying. That's the problem. I'm trying to figure out how to get them to learn how to play " The world's greatest Roleplaying game". That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[Pelle]

I expect my players to read SOME too. [...] All I'm asking is that they put in a fraction of the effort I do.


Don't. Just accept that other people have different priorities than you. All you can do is try to encourage them, but you shouldn't expect them to do things they don't want.



It frustrates me when I'm talking to the players, and one of them says, "I roll for persuasion to get him to come with us", and I say, "no, roleplay it out, and I'll tell you when to roll."


Try not to be negative/controlling. A better approach is to first accept that he wants to try persuade him, but say that you need to know exactly what his argument is to be able to set the DC. If you can't fish something plausible out of him, just say the DC is 30 or something.



This is quite contrary to what I first stated. My players don't seem to care about mechanics OR roleplaying. That's the problem. I'm trying to figure out how to get them to learn how to play " The world's greatest Roleplaying game". That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Doesn't sound like they want to play, honestly... Expecting them to read a lot of stuff for something they don't want to do seems naively optimistic.

[Mordaedil]

Wow, congratulations and welcome to the hobby.

Hope you'll have a fruitful few forming years starting out in this nerdiest of nerdy stuff. You will make a lot of mistakes and sometimes get a bit angry, but I recommend taking deep breaths and forgiving your players for their short-sightedness. You have the toughest task and you'll maybe feel a bit frustrated with your players, but most of you have grown up with the expectations that a lot of the work is done for you, sadly at least true for your players and friends.

I think the visual aids will help your game run better, so please consider that (even just pieces of paper where you write their abilities) and have them use small notebooks and tracking combat stuff, early on.

[Delta]

My players (and I), all barely qualify as teens.

In that case, really don't overthink it. When I think back to the games I ran in my early teens... yeah, I've been there. Most of those games were just stupid silly fun that would be cringe-worthy to revisit nowadays (and trust me, I actually tried, a player actually recorded some of those gaming sessions and still had some tapes of them years later), but guess what: That's what 12-14 year olds do. Some will stick with the hobby, some will be interested in the rules, the characters, the stories you can tell, some simply won't, and that's fine too. Give them time, and a few rounds of murderhoboing through the campaign world isn't the end of the world (well of this world, it may well be the end of the game world) as long as everyone is having fun doing it. So if you can, relax, give it some time and see where you can take things.

In general, it's a lot easier to convince a player to invest more in the game once he's already seen "Hey, this thing is fun!", then you can tell him "Hey, it might be even more fun if you do xyz!", rather than just start out with "Hey, unless you do xyz, you're doing it wrong!"

[Estrillian]

This is quite contrary to what I first stated. My players don't seem to care about mechanics OR roleplaying. That's the problem. I'm trying to figure out how to get them to learn how to play " The world's greatest Roleplaying game". That's what I'm trying to figure out.

I guess that rather depends on your definition of Roleplaying. To me it means "submerging yourself in a fictional world in which you have characters that take actions", which it sounds like they are doing. You may not like the actions they are taking (eating people, acting like monsters, ignoring consequences) but that's still roleplaying. Not roleplaying would be just rolling the dice and saying "My guy kills the other guy, how much treasure do I get?", which I've seen plenty of people do.

i.e. roleplaying is engaging with the fiction, no matter what you then choose to do.

[War_lord]

I would advise walking away. No game is better then trying to drag a bunch of (literal in this case) children to play a game they don't actually want to play. If you're determined to game with these people (and I can't see why), I would suggest picking up a very rules light game for it instead of D&D. Then it won't matter if they didn't bother reading anything.

But honestly, they're acting exactly like most 14/15 year olds (I'm assuming that's the age range) act, lazy and selfish with an attention span of about 5 minutes. The fact that you've got them sitting at the table at all is impressive.

[Grear Bylls]

I guess that rather depends on your definition of Roleplaying. To me it means "submerging yourself in a fictional world in which you have characters that take actions", which it sounds like they are doing. You may not like the actions they are taking (eating people, acting like monsters, ignoring consequences) but that's still roleplaying. Not roleplaying would be just rolling the dice and saying "My guy kills the other guy, how much treasure do I get?", which I've seen plenty of people do.

i.e. roleplaying is engaging with the fiction, no matter what you then choose to do.

I do agree with that roleplaying definition, however, that's not they are doing. One player, the Paladin, is a paladin who left his clan just to go out and destroy the evil in the world. The half Orc fighter, raised as a slave and escaped while guarding a caravan through town, and grew up as an urchin there. The Himan Rogue, a noble who's city government was overthrown by the populous, escaped with only himself and his butler to adventure. They all have decided that they are on the spectrum of good. Do any of those characters, if Roleplayed in a reasonable way that is aligned with their backstory, seem like they would eat someone the second they could?

I agree that roleplaying is difficult, but eating someone for a ration is just not RPing in my mind. It's a player eating someone to gain game benefits.

[Pex]

You should prolly just drop it. They very clearly do not want to play DnD so you're just wasting your time and effort. Find other people to play with.

GOLDEN RULE: No game is better than bad game.
Internalize this. It will serve you well.




If you're playing with children, the elderly or the differently abled. Ok. Then I agree. But if you're playing with reasonably intelligent individuals with fully functioning and developed brains, it isn't a stretch for them to read and understand about 10-15 pages of content. IF THEY DON'T WANT TO... then play something else.

Because D&D clearly isn't in their wheelhouse. You can still play a roleplaying game and not play D&D. Maybe play some Munchkin or something. I dunno.

This & This. If the players aren't going to make the effort there's nothing more you can do. Drop it. They don't want to play the game you want to run. They need to learn the rules and stop being fecal matter. Their refusal tells you all you need to know.

[Amdy_vill]

Hello friends. I've recently found myself in a conundrum. I've started an Out of the Abyss game fairly recently, and my group has been playing for roughly 5 sessions. However, my players still haven't read anything, it seems. I've told them to read their class, spellcasting rules (if they cast), 173-198 in the PHB (Combat, Adventuring, and more), the spells they will cast, and feats. I've also requested that they read as much flavor of the monster manual that they want, so my encounters won't be a "here's this thing, what's it do? It's probably not foreshadowing anything". However, I doubt that any single one of them has read anything I've said. Our paladin still hasn't read his channel divinity, spell casting rules, or spell options. Our rogue has to be consistently reminded, by me, how sneak attack works. The only person who knows what they're doing is the Chanpion Fighter (surprise) who's been in another game.

This isn't the only problem that I've encountered. I don't think they understand the concept of "roleplaying". Or at least, not how to execute it. All of their characters considered canibalizing several dead duergar the second they ran out of rations. For a normal person, that should be CONSIDERED, not ACCEPTED on there 3rd exhaustion level. They also knew a Kua-Toa settlement would be 2 days away. What they did we be the equivalent of eating a person of a different ethnicity due to not eating for a day. I know I shouldn't do this as a DM, but I stepped in and brought to light what they were considering doing. They also felt absolutely no remorse for accidentally eating some people that they had mistaken for steak.

Additionally, my players are consistently infighting due to different class abilities and equipment. The Rogue was complaining about how he only had a +1 dagger while the fighter had a mace that glowed like a torch and dealt an extra point of fire on a hit. He was complaining about it so badly about how he wanted it, that I had to stop the game and tell him that a mace wouldn't even help. I forgot to mention he was complaining about his "non-magical dagger" in front of our paladin who has nothing. The rogue player also complained about how when they got to pick out 350 gp worth of equipment from an armory, that the melee guys (who need heavy armor and weapons) got a better deal due to him already having a rapier and studded leather.

I also have consistently remind my players to add their attack and skill bonuses to rolls, and they keep talking about crit fails and successes, which I constantly tell them I don't care about.

Lastly, they call me out on calling THEM out for their contrary to alignment characteristics, like eating someone, or killing someone so that they can have more rations for everyone else. They also have told me that I'm oppressive for forcing them to be good, or neutral at worst, in an OUT OF THE ABYSS GAME.

I'm sorry for my tangent rant, but I had to get this off my chest. Can you PLEASE provide some suggestions for how to fix this?

PS: I may come back later to add some more things they do.

if your player is not reading have there abilities fail every time they mess up. I would do this as the player seems like he does not want to learn. but before that make sure the player can read. i know i have major problems with reading and write do to my disability.

[CantigThimble]

I remember playing when I was younger. There were YEARS of random silly things, half baked ideas and utter lack of roleplaying in any way before any of us got remotely decent at the game. One member of our group never learned how to make a first level character for himself. After YEARS of playing and MANY characters.

That's just kinda how it goes. I think I'm kinda like you in that I have a vision of what 'D&D' is supposed to be and while I'm DMing, if the game doesn't fit with that vision I consider it my responsibility to set up the right kind of roleplaying and combat. But honestly, it's often probably better to just let things go as they will. If your players are throwing weird things that don't fit at you then just meet them halfway and start throwing weird things back at them. Above all, if they're having fun or getting excited by something, no matter how 'non-D&D' it seems then just go with it. Getting excited by something in the game will do more for your group than any amount of reading the rules.

[Pelle]

I agree that roleplaying is difficult, but eating someone for a ration is just not RPing in my mind. It's a player eating someone to gain game benefits.

Understandable, but don't police their roleplaying. It's the players responsibility to make decisions for their characters. That they don't act responsibly doesn't change that, and if you don't accept it you'll just end up playing with yourself...

[Snivlem]

The real questions are these:

Are your players having fun?

Are you having fun?

The answer to the last question is quite obviously no. The answer to the first question is unclear. If they aren't either, there is no reason to continue gaming with them, I guess. If they are enjoying themself and you aren't, maybe you should try to ask yourself if the problem isn't really them, maybe it is you. Fealing entitlet because "you put work in it" is common among DMs but more likely to mess up games than bear any fruits. I certainly personally can relate to your emotions. The most important thing I've ever learned as a DM is that the players fun is my fun, and that neither of us will be having fun if we are trying to play different games.

Maybe you shouldn't force them to be good if they don't want?

Maybe you shouldn't try to play a streamlined campaign if that's not what they want?

If they think it is difficult to RP on the spot - help them, and maybe later they will get a hang of it.

If they dont want to read the rules by themselves, just explain to them how the rules work.


etc.

Please bear in mind I don't know the details of your story or your games, so I very well could be wrong in this, and your game wont be fun anyhow, I'm just really think you should at least consider this perspective. Also I should stress if you do what I suggest and the game still isn't fun for you, just quit. I am absolutely not suggestion you should play a game you don't like, just to cater to your players needs, i'm just suggesting: Drop your expectations and stop fealing entitled because you are the DM, maybe you will have more fun.

When I was 12-13 playing we used to basically just flip through the monster manual and run encounters with monsters that seemed cool, waiting to roll on treasure tables and get XP, swapping DMs every 1 - 2 hours. We still had lots of fun and played for like 12 hours at a time every weekend instead of our average 4 hour game a month now.

[KorvinStarmast]

First off, Malifice is on the right track.

5 sessions of coddling them and helping?

If a player get a class feature wrong or doesnt know what a spell or class feature does, at the DMs discretion it doesnt work/ fizzles out.
I dont bicker with players about alignment stuff. I pick up an eraser and pencil and write what aligmnent the Gods judge the PCs as on their character sheet.
Players get 10 seconds on their turns to tell the DM what they're doing or thier turn ends and the take the Dodge action (this is more than my players get - they only get 1-2 seconds each!).

These are all good suggestions.
I'll toss in a few more.

A. Don't sweat the alignment stuff in terms of arguing about it. Where you see something that trends good / evil / lawful / chaotic / whatever, keep a log of the action, the character(s), and the context. I did this for some years in AD&D 1e since I was not very keen on the step function alignment penalties in the DMG; our group preferred trends and movement along a continuum. When they have slid pretty far in one direction, use dreams / visions to send the message that they are becoming (fill in the blank) ...

B. If they don't read, then don't worry about it. Go back to
(1) DM describes environment
(2) Player describes what they want to do (DM may or may not call for a die roll)
(3) DM describes the result

If they don't bother to master their character's skills, then it's not your problem. (Let them fail if they are that lazy ... your challenge is to make disaster/failure seem interesting or humorous ... and let a few characters die and have them roll up new ones ... with the advice "if you do a better job of mastering what this character can do, you'll be less likely to die .... )

C. Action Economy.

Have a 3"x5" or a 4"x6" index card taped to the dungeon master's screen on the outside, facing them.
List from top to bottom:
Action
Bonus Action
Reaction
Movement
Interact With Object

D. About the whining rogue player:

"Stop whining. This is a team effort of survival and doing heroic stuff."

And that's all there is to that. If that wet blanket continues to wine, they need to leave or have the player create a different character.

[Scripten]

Honestly, walking away might do a lot more for you than to keep trying to power through. Since you do seem to be fairly mature, perhaps you could try looking around for a good online 5e game, since it seems like a mid-crunch RPG is more up your alley than your friends'.

To go along with that: As much as I do enjoy playing 5e myself, it seems like this group might be better suited for a different system. I would recommend finding a less serious game to play with them, preferably with either less rules in general or a heavier focus on the DM making all rules judgements. I've not played it myself, but Paranoia might be a fun choice, since it's frequently goofy and expects player characters both to be equally ridiculous and dead, which may satisfy your friends and you, respectively.

[Estrillian]

I do agree with that roleplaying definition, however, that's not they are doing. One player, the Paladin, is a paladin who left his clan just to go out and destroy the evil in the world. The half Orc fighter, raised as a slave and escaped while guarding a caravan through town, and grew up as an urchin there. The Himan Rogue, a noble who's city government was overthrown by the populous, escaped with only himself and his butler to adventure. They all have decided that they are on the spectrum of good. Do any of those characters, if Roleplayed in a reasonable way that is aligned with their backstory, seem like they would eat someone the second they could?

I agree that roleplaying is difficult, but eating someone for a ration is just not RPing in my mind. It's a player eating someone to gain game benefits.

Like another poster has said below, I think maybe you are expecting too much of new roleplayers. Yes, eating random dead people to save a ration is not "good", and in D&D's alignment system (which many people have no time for), is problematic, but it is still RP — just not very good RP :D For the age group you are running the game for it sounds absolutely typical. When I first started roleplaying in my mid-teens every game was full of off-colour jokes, random murders, rampant stealing, and generally ludicrous behaviour, but that changed over time. It sounds a little to me like you want your group (and your gaming experience) to run before they can walk.

Of course, wanting more is totally reasonable. You've already stated that you feel more mature than the rest of your group, and you may not want (or be able to) shepherd a group of irreverent teens through their silly phase into a more complex form of RP, a process that could easily take years. If you aren't having fun, it is rational to seek out a different RP experience for yourself, perhaps with older players. You might be able to find such a game online, if it isn't available to you in person. If you feel that you are in that position, i.e. if the game is not fun for you, then I'd agree with some of the other posters, you might be better of gaming in a different context.

Alternatively perhaps you really do want to play with your friends, in which case what you might need to do is expect less. A D&D game with a group of new teen players is unlikely to reach the heights of characterisation you see in YouTube game streams, or the detailed motivations that a bunch of mid-20s University students will lavish on their World of Darkness characters. If you concentrate more on the fun you are having now, than the fun you could be having, the game and group ought to mature over time.

[2D8HP]

The only person who knows what they're doing is the Chanpion Fighter (surprise) who's been in another game.


Yep, the Champion is the 5e "training wheels" class, and the complexity of many other sub-classes is why 5e needs it (side rant, the majority of proposed homebrew "fixes" for the Champion are lame because they lose that aspect of the class, the designers knew what they were doing), the rest of your players are "biting off more than they can chew" Grear Bylls, and from how you tell it none of them should be playing Spell-Casters without hand holding.

When I was 12 to 14, me and my friends pretty much played D&D they way you describe your crew playing, and the vast majority of our PC's were human Fighters.

If you and your players are still ambitious enough to continue with these PC's in this adventure, I'd definitely do as KorvinStarmast suggests:


Go back to
(1) DM describes environment
(2) Player describes what they want to do (DM may or may not call for a die roll)
(3) DM describes the result .


Make or buy spell cards, and ability cards for your players, keep copies of the PC's Character Record Sheets near you so you may tell them what to roll, if they don't use any of their PC's special class abilities and they just say what a normal person can try when you ask "What do you do?" that's fine, baby steps, just get them uses to saying what their PC's try.

Maybe you want to use a different, less ambitious adventure. Some of the adventures that are in [I]Tales of the Yawning Portal may work better for your crew, and you can pick others from

here (https://merricb.com/dungeons-dragons-5e-adventures-by-level/)

which is a big list of adventures, some are "pay what you want".

For everything else, there's the chart:

http://i.imgur.com/EwiChyD.png

[darknite]

One thing I don't tolerate at my table when I DM is a player who doesn't know their character. I can understand looking up a spell or occasionally clarifying an ability not used often. But coming to the same person game after game and they have no clue, ugh!

[ImproperJustice]

You sound like where I was when I first started the hobby.

My advice for you and your friends is to forget the rules and just love the game. Right now, they are just looking for excitement and thrills and action.

Throw in some awesom set pieces (have them fight on the back of a dragon against a demi-lich and his minions), provide minimal exposition and give them big enemies to fight and big stuff they can do.

Make traps stupidly lethal and gross, let them run roughshod over a town or two, and keep the soda and pretzels flowing.

As they love the game, they will begin to start reading the books over time because they are having fun. As they mature along with you, so will your campaigns. They are just not where you are yet.

Build that enjoyment though and it will last. I am still playing with friends who first started with me 22 years ago, because we just decided to get together each week and have some fun.

Also, you may wanna try exposing them to a game of Savage Rifts. It fits that mindset really, really well....

[Grear Bylls]

Alternatively perhaps you really do want to play with your friends, in which case what you might need to do is expect less. A D&D game with a group of new teen players is unlikely to reach the heights of characterisation you see in YouTube game streams, or the detailed motivations that a bunch of mid-20s University students will lavish on their World of Darkness characters. If you concentrate more on the fun you are having now, than the fun you could be having, the game and group ought to mature over time.

I think this is what I'll try and do. I do want to continue hosting for them. However, I do think I'll try and get them to be better at the game (in my eyes) over time. I will also stop helping them along as much as I have, so they'll learn the hard way.

Please keep offering input!

[Kaliayev]

Honestly, walking away might do a lot more for you than to keep trying to power through. Since you do seem to be fairly mature, perhaps you could try looking around for a good online 5e game, since it seems like a mid-crunch RPG is more up your alley than your friends'.

To go along with that: As much as I do enjoy playing 5e myself, it seems like this group might be better suited for a different system. I would recommend finding a less serious game to play with them, preferably with either less rules in general or a heavier focus on the DM making all rules judgements. I've not played it myself, but Paranoia might be a fun choice, since it's frequently goofy and expects player characters both to be equally ridiculous and dead, which may satisfy your friends and you, respectively.

Based on OP's description of the group, Fate is another decent option. It's minimalist in terms of requiring players to read and remember rules. You and your players define the setting, increasing the likelihood that they're invested in their characters and the world.

[Ancient Words]

Focus on the Story rather than the Rules


Remember, the goal isn't to run a game that fits the rules as closely as possible - it is to run a fun game that tells an engaging story.

Robert Mckee says stories are tools for living. Sid Meier says that the definition gaming is making decisions that matter.

Remember, the rules are simply a framework for *you* as a DM to know what happens in the world based on what the characters are doing. Yes it is nice if players read the rules, but as virtually every DM can demonstrate, it is almost completely unnecessary to the game.

Games with inexperienced PCs can actually be an easier and more interesting game to run as a GM if the PCs don't know the rules because it means (a) players may be less bound by the rules as they imagine their range of activities; (b) the game can focus more on story than the actual rules which gives the GM a little more flexibility.


Stop Expecting Players to Read the Rules - Have them Learn the Rules by Playing

How many people read the rules to a video game before they play?
How many people read the instructions to their iPhone?

As a general rule, people don't read. Players come in all types and some don't have time or interest to read rules. They have things they feel are more important and more interesting things to do in their lives. Think of Video Games. They are designed to be self-teaching. People learn as they play. Unless your group is developmentally delayed, they will eventually learn the rules as they play.


Let Them be Cannibals - and make the Game World Vividly Real and React Realistically

People don't have to feel bad for being cannibals or even sociopaths. In historical England there was a whole family who ate travelers - and they didn't even have one level of exhaustion leading to disadvantage on every skill roll. They just did it because it was convenient. Our own world is filled with historical groups that had no problems with it. But let your world react realistically to it. The players are seeking something by being in your game. As your world reacts realistically to their actions (and know that you aren't artificially gaming it to enforce your morality) - your players will respond in Pavlovian ways to whatever you condition them to do to reach their goals. You have more power to control behavior as the imaginary world becomes more and more real to them.

Let them Complain - Use it to determine Motivation for the Adventure

Imagine if all the players had complaints but never said anything. How would you make a better game?
Now that the rogue is complaining about magic item inequality - now you know how to hook him or her in the adventure.

Start Caring about Critical Rolls

"...and they keep talking about crit fails and successes, which I constantly tell them I don't care about..."

Start Caring. Clearly your players do. They are enjoying this part of the game. Make it matter and they will be more engaged in your game.

It is fine that players don't remember their attack and skill bonuses to rolls. It's their loss. If they don't remember them, you don't have to. It is generous for you to remind them. Just remind them when you remember to - but don't make it work for yourself.

Stop Using Alignment

Has everyone in their life always done good and never done evil? Does the evil guy never do any good?
If they don't have a God that will take away spells or powers, then alignment is simply a guideline. There is no rule. In the latest version of 5e, it simply represents what the player aspires to be. There are virtually no rules or punishments for acting outside one's alignment anymore. If you have a cleric in the party, simply have their God not grant them spells. They will learn quickly enough to change to a new chaotic neutral God. People in desperate circumstances do desperate things. We are placing players in desperate circumstances. They are going to do unusual things to survive (just like those victims of the plane crash that cannibalized each other years ago.) If you don't want them to do desperate things - then don't put them in desperate situations...but that's never going to happen right? Give them options and remember that the most effective way of controlling mammalian behavior is positive feedback. Every trick you ever see by any trained mammal was accomplished through positive feedback. The same thing goes for human behavior in games. Reward good behavior. Ignore the bad.

[Auramis]

GOLDEN RULE: No game is better than bad game.
Internalize this. It will serve you well.

Choice bit of wisdom here.

[CantigThimble]

*snip*

This is all FANTASTIC advice. Overall, what I would suggest is that you let go of your ideals of what the game should be in order to ensure that it's fun. Meet them halfway and let the parts they enjoy take over a bit more with a minimum of 'But you're doing it wrong!'

If they're excited by the game and want to keep playing then it's going to be easier to work towards making into something that's closer to what you want it to be.

[GlenSmash!]

If this is the first game for most of your players. I think you started off on the wrong adventure.

OotA starts out by immediately taking all your stuff. And your standard new murderhobo is bound to be obsessed with stuff, this starts off on a very unhappy footing.

A simpler adventure like the Lost Mines of Phandelver might work a little better.

-Singed one former loot obsessed murderhobo.

[Grear Bylls]

If this is the first game for most of your players. I think you started off on the wrong adventure.

OotA starts out by immediately taking all your stuff. And your standard new murderhobo is bound to be obsessed with stuff, this starts off on a very unhappy footing.

A simpler adventure like the Lost Mines of Phandelver might work a little better.

-Singed one former loot obsessed murderhobo.

I actually did start that with a modified story to make it easily work into OotA. However, the party blindly ran into the cave, and got captured due to lack of planning.

[GlenSmash!]

I actually did start that with a modified story to make it easily work into OotA. However, the party blindly ran into the cave, and got captured due to lack of planning.

LOL. Well that shows what I know :smallbiggrin:

[Cynthaer]

[a bunch of good stuff]

Given that you are all very young players, I too would like to comment Ancient Words for this excellent post.

There's a great column (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/teach-their-own-2012-06-14) from Mark Rosewater, lead designer for Magic: the Gathering, about teaching new players. Now, he's talking about Magic, but honestly the general points apply perfectly well to D&D.

A few particularly relevant sections:


Let's start by getting a few important things out of the way. What is your number-one goal for the end of the first lesson? Wanting them to play a second game. That's it. No goal is more important than that one because if you don't succeed, odds are they will never play Magic again.
It's true that some players simply aren't wired to learn and remember a full RPG ruleset. However, I highlight this section because it still gets at a general truth: If your players are having fun, then they will be more motivated to learn the rules of the game.

Now, that doesn't mean give up on having your players share the rules burden a bit, it's just important to keep in mind.


The corollary to the above point is the following: the most important thing you have to do when teaching Magic is make the first game fun. It's not conveying the rules. It's not making sure they "get it." It's not explaining strategy. The first game has to be about showing off the fun of the game. Now, what that fun is can vary greatly. You, the teacher, have to figure out what your student is enjoying and then move your lesson in that direction.

[...]

I bring this story up because teaching new players is much like pitching a script. You are trying to sell them something. That means you have to listen to them and pick up on what they are looking for in the game. The key to doing this is to focus on what they are doing. It's very easy when teaching to get in a zone and phase out your students. This is dangerous in any teaching situation but especially problematic here. Your students will give you hints about what interests them. You just have to pay enough attention to pick them up.
You don't need to let your players do whatever they want with no consequences, but it's worth considering what things they seem to enjoy and when they're having fun.

For instance, when they discovered they had eaten human flesh, did they just not care, or were they actually excited that something so bizarre had happened? If the latter, that may be a hint as to the kind of campaign they'd be more interested in engaging with.

A freebie is the whole "critical success/failure thing". You don't care about it, and it's not in the rules, but they seem to think it's tremendous fun. So really, what do you gain by responding with "no, that's not RAW in 5e" instead of "with a natural 20 on Athletics, you throw the rest of the party over your shoulders and scale the wall in a few seconds"?


Make The Game About What They Are Interested In

Allow your students to pick their focuses and then you follow them. If they are excited to attack, don't inform them why it's not advantageous—let them attack. If they are intrigued by a certain mechanic, focus on that mechanic. If they love knocking down your life total, let them do that. Just remember, the first game isn't about them learning everything they need to learn. It is about them getting invested in the game. If they want to play again, there will be more chances for education. If they don't want to play again, what does it matter how much they learned?
Same basic idea.

I gotta run, but let me leave you with this: I know you probably had a certain kind of campaign in mind when you decided to put together a group to run Out of the Abyss. It's disappointing when the other players just aren't interested in playing that kind of campaign. But you may be able to meet your players halfway, by bringing the tone and the content of the campaign more in line with the things they get excited about while still running a campaign that you can enjoy, even if it's not what you had in mind.

And importantly, this will be good practice for the future. The experience you gain now will serve you well in the many more campaigns you run over the years. I'm running my own first campaign at 28 and having to work through all of this for the first time. :)

[Contrast]

Do either of these people "not want to play D&D"?

I mean you know them better than me. Sounds like they enjoy roleplaying but don't necessarily enjoy D&D to me. OP may want to consider a more rules light system (of which there are many). They would relieve the burden on the players and also potentially reduce OPs preparation time. I enjoy 5E and its much simpler than some previous iterations of D&D but its still far from the most streamlined system out there.


All I'm asking is that they put in a fraction of the effort I do.

This is a bit of a dangerous mindset to get into. This is something you do for fun. If you're starting to get frustrated about who is putting in more effort you need to take a deep breath and think about what you're trying to achieve.


All of their characters considered canibalizing several dead duergar the second they ran out of rations. For a normal person, that should be CONSIDERED, not ACCEPTED on there 3rd exhaustion level. They also knew a Kua-Toa settlement would be 2 days away. What they did we be the equivalent of eating a person of a different ethnicity due to not eating for a day. I know I shouldn't do this as a DM, but I stepped in and brought to light what they were considering doing. They also felt absolutely no remorse for accidentally eating some people that they had mistaken for steak.

While I agree it sounds like your players jumped the gun here, 3 exhaustion is a rather arbitrary limit you've imposed there. I've not played the module but are corpses disguised as steak an intrinsic part of it? They may well just be reacting to the tone you set there.

[Grear Bylls]

While I agree it sounds like your players jumped the gun here, 3 exhaustion is a rather arbitrary limit you've imposed there. I've not played the module but are corpses disguised as steak an intrinsic part of it? They may well just be reacting to the tone you set there.

The arbitrary 3 was more or less an angry rant number. You'd be close to death and willing to do despicable things to survive. Probably poor thinking on my part, but I was venting frustration.

Also, I researched it just for an encounter. Human meat looks like steak and tastes like pork. Again, I RESEARCHED that. Not first hand experience. Googles first hand experience.

[Contrast]

Also, I researched it just for an encounter. Human meat looks like steak and tastes like pork. Again, I RESEARCHED that. Not first hand experience. Googles first hand experience.

...errr, OK. I wasn't accusing you of cannibalism. :smallconfused: I was just pointing out you were apparently the one who introduced(/tricked your players into) cannibalism first so that may have primed your players to think of it as a go to response ('we've already done it once so a little more won't hurt!'). I agree it was apparently handled poorly but just something to think about going forward in terms of what you introduce into the game and how you do it.

[Mordaedil]

I'm sorry that you had to look that up, but I think I was around that age when I discovered similar distasteful stuff on the Internet.

I'm a little disappointed to see so many people advertise "no game is better than a bad game" for this thread. It honestly doesn't look unsalvagable to me, just a bit of impatient youth at course, which is frankly to be expected. And I can relate to needing to vent for sure, so I'd say don't take those comments too seriously, but keep it in mind if you get actually frustrated at some point later. Take a break, stop the game, resume when things calm down and you get your sights straight again.

Given that your players get excited whenever the roll lands on a natural 1 or natural 20, consider implementing critical consequences and fumble. It will make combat more comedic, but as a DM you can always adjust it as you'd like. A broken weapon (note that you shouldn't break magic weapons, but you could have the enchantment fizzle for a few rounds, it'll make them nervous enough) here, a few hit points lost there, it's all funnier for it.

If the rogue player has problems with the sneak attack stuff, consider suggesting to them to play a swashbuckler subclass, which allows them to use their sneak attacks without anything special, except that they must be fighting only a single other enemy.

[Grear Bylls]

...errr, OK. I wasn't accusing you of cannibalism. :smallconfused: I was just pointing out you were apparently the one who introduced(/tricked your players into) cannibalism first so that may have primed your players to think of it as a go to response ('we've already done it once so a little more won't hurt!'). I agree it was apparently handled poorly but just something to think about going forward in terms of what you introduce into the game and how you do it.

They had planned on eating people before I ran this encounter for them. Also, they proceeded to take the human meat and save it for later, even after they knew it was human meat.

As soon as they realized they'd eaten someone, I'd had them make con saves just to keep it down. They all passed, and justified no remorse with "well, I passed my save, soooo..."

[2D8HP]

.....I'd had them make con saves just to keep it down. They all passed, and justified no remorse with "well, I passed my save, soooo..."
A guilty hush falls over everyone.

"Listen everybody, we did what we had to in there."

"But... How will we live with ourselves now?"

One day at a time... One day at a time."

"Well, I'm bringing home some Eric Roberts in a doggie bag, does anybody else want some?"

[Grear Bylls]

A guilty hush falls over everyone.

"Listen everybody, we did what we had to in there."

"But... How will we live with ourselves now?"

One day at a time... One day at a time."

"Well, I'm bringing home some Eric Roberts in a doggie bag, does anybody else want some?"

Close enough

[BW022]

Grear Bylls,

I've DM'd hundreds of public games and you honestly have to treat new players -- especially children/teens -- differently. I enjoy new players intensely, but I always ask at a public game if players have played before and immediately alter my approach to the game as soon as someone is new.

My general advice.

Almost no one (including adults) learn complex systems (including D&D) via reading. It's too abstract. People only retain about 10% of what they read (and less so of manuals and technical writing, aka PHB), you retain about 25% from instruction, and about 50% from doing with repetition.

#1 - If you can, have a one-on-one with each player before the game. Put them in a really simple situation with a clear goal and roleplay them for 30-60 minutes. Introduce them to the setting, work in their background, and setup some (super simple) goal for their character. "You reached East Port, you are trying to get a ship to Bridgeway."

#2 - If you can, use a homemade adventure. Exclude as much combat and dice rolling as possible. Focus on roleplaying (since it is the easiest to follow/learn), then skills, then combat. Limit combat to one per session or less to start with and even then, feel free to make it so easy its over in a few rounds. I would personally avoid published adventures since they are almost always 50% combat or more. Many rely on setting knowledge, may have complex moral situations, etc.

#3 - If you can, find an experienced adult and ask them to join. Talk to them first, but the can often lead by example. Children/young teens often behave differently around adults who are clearly focused. Have them pair up and help others with math. Use them as an "assistant". Just ensure they aren't leading them in terms of actions.

#4 - Do the math for your players. Ask them to roll a d20 and add this (point to number on the sheet). Initial goal is to keep the game moving/interesting. Eventually, players will start wanting to know how the numbers are calculated.

#5 - Keep the setting simple and levels low. 100XP per session or something, to keep them 2-3 for some time. New players do get overwhelmed with too many abilities. Sessions should be short -- maybe 2.5 hours with a good break.

#6 - Give impromptu XP rewards. Say 10XP here and there for someone who makes a roll without help, uses a skill without prompting, or who does read-up on something.

#7 - Don't "teach" rules during the session. Just get them to roll and give them the result. If something comes up, make a note. Too many games bog down with rules. End the session with at least 15 minutes left and then go over anything you have a note for.

#8 - Book time (or have your adult/assistant do so) between sessions to help/tutor players. Go over their character sheet, make sure it is up to date, maybe help them with spell/ability cards, maybe go through an example of using the ability, etc.

[Grear Bylls]

Grear Bylls,

I've DM'd hundreds of public games and you honestly have to treat new players -- especially children/teens -- differently. I enjoy new players intensely, but I always ask at a public game if players have played before and immediately alter my approach to the game as soon as someone is new.

My general advice.

Almost no one (including adults) learn complex systems (including D&D) via reading. It's too abstract. People only retain about 10% of what they read (and less so of manuals and technical writing, aka PHB), you retain about 25% from instruction, and about 50% from doing with repetition.

#1 - If you can, have a one-on-one with each player before the game. Put them in a really simple situation with a clear goal and roleplay them for 30-60 minutes. Introduce them to the setting, work in their background, and setup some (super simple) goal for their character. "You reached East Port, you are trying to get a ship to Bridgeway."

#2 - If you can, use a homemade adventure. Exclude as much combat and dice rolling as possible. Focus on roleplaying (since it is the easiest to follow/learn), then skills, then combat. Limit combat to one per session or less to start with and even then, feel free to make it so easy its over in a few rounds. I would personally avoid published adventures since they are almost always 50% combat or more. Many rely on setting knowledge, may have complex moral situations, etc.

#3 - If you can, find an experienced adult and ask them to join. Talk to them first, but the can often lead by example. Children/young teens often behave differently around adults who are clearly focused. Have them pair up and help others with math. Use them as an "assistant". Just ensure they aren't leading them in terms of actions.

#4 - Do the math for your players. Ask them to roll a d20 and add this (point to number on the sheet). Initial goal is to keep the game moving/interesting. Eventually, players will start wanting to know how the numbers are calculated.

#5 - Keep the setting simple and levels low. 100XP per session or something, to keep them 2-3 for some time. New players do get overwhelmed with too many abilities. Sessions should be short -- maybe 2.5 hours with a good break.

#6 - Give impromptu XP rewards. Say 10XP here and there for someone who makes a roll without help, uses a skill without prompting, or who does read-up on something.

#7 - Don't "teach" rules during the session. Just get them to roll and give them the result. If something comes up, make a note. Too many games bog down with rules. End the session with at least 15 minutes left and then go over anything you have a note for.

#8 - Book time (or have your adult/assistant do so) between sessions to help/tutor players. Go over their character sheet, make sure it is up to date, maybe help them with spell/ability cards, maybe go through an example of using the ability, etc.

This is some of my favorite advice ive received in this thread. I should be able to run a one on one character building session with each player, RPing their backstory, and teaching them base game mechanics. The XP gaining method you mention seems quite nice and effective, and should certainly help keep the levels low. I think I'll try and have a copy of each of their sheets with me behind the screen so I can tell them the proper numbers, and fix anything they did wrong.

Thank you very much!

[KorvinStarmast]

My general advice.

Almost no one (including adults) learn complex systems (including D&D) via reading. {I snipped the rest} Bravo. *tips cap* Beautiful advice.

[opaopajr]

Oh, you all are in jr. high! :smalleek: Yeah, pre-teens are a difficult time. :smalltongue: D&D may not be the best thing to play with your friends. This would be a good time to find other friends with similar D&D interests.

And just hang out with these friends doing something else! Try not to set fire to too many things! :smallcool: (I remember my youth... :smallamused: )

[King of Nowhere]

My general advice.

Almost no one (including adults) learn complex systems (including D&D) via reading.

Agree with that. A problem with recruiting new players is that most old players, when confronted with a potential recruit, dismiss them with "oh, you have to read and learn this book, and then this other book, and then you can baarely play at noob level. you should learn this two dozen other books if you want to be somewhat good at it. And then you can come back andd we'll talk again".

Still, wanting them to learn the basic mechanics is reasonable. But it's not an age problem, rather a motivation problem. I've been playing 3 years with a woman in her fifties, with intelligence somewhat above average and good at chess (you'd think the focus on logic would help), and she still doesn't know how to calculate her to-hit modifier or her saving throws. She also pays only mild attention to the plot. She's there because she likes to throw fireballs and lighting bolts and roll lots of d6 for damage. Her son is the one who actually knows the game and follows the plot. She, and the rest of the party, mostly follow him. It works for everyone involved.

What I suggest (in addition to other good advice) is to railroad the plot more. I know, it seems a bad thing, railroading got a bad name. The problem with new players lacking focus, however, is that they won't know what to do. It's like having a balnk canvas: if you are an artist, it's great, but if you're not, then you have no use for it, and you'd rather have some dots to connect. So, give them clear instructions on what it is expected from them. At the same time, leave them freedom to pursue their tasks in many ways. Eventually, some of your players will start to interiorize the game world and take the lead. Others never will, but they'll let others decide.

[Tawmis]

Hello friends.


Hail, and well met, traveler.



I've recently found myself in a conundrum.


Seems to be the way of life!



I've started an Out of the Abyss game fairly recently, and my group has been playing for roughly 5 sessions. However, my players still haven't read anything, it seems.


Everyone's already offered solid advice - about ways to improve this.

To me - it really boils down to - are these friends of yours? Are they avid D&D players of their own (outside of your game)? Like do they own the Player's Handbook or any of the books?

If they are your friends, but they don't really play outside of your game or own the Player's Handbook (for example) - then this seems more about hanging out and D&D is just the excuse.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

For example, I run a game, where I've created my own gods, my own history, my own maps, the whole 9 yards! And all of this is hosted on a site. And after every session, I do a write up on the site that summarizes the events of the game.

And yet, every session (granted, we play sporadically because of real life stuff always getting in the way) - but it's always the same thing from my players. "Where did we leave off?" Even though it's on the site, in bullet form, nice and easy. None of them read it the day before or anything to recap. If I quizzed them to say, "What's the main city on the continent?" (Which we've been playing out of for a long time), maybe half of them would remember.

It boils down to - they're entertaining my need to DM and get these stories out of my head. None of them own any of the D&D books (most of them did buy their own sets of dice, though). We all have a good time and laugh throughout the game, with some of the silly things they do. (I am not one to be strict with the rules, and let my players try some crazy things at times - just make them roll the appropriate skill checks to see if they can pull it off).

It's become just as much as them entertaining my need to be a DM as much as it is for me to entertain them with my story telling adventures. The rules are there for the guidelines; and I follow them, but someone who was strict to D&D rules might be horrified at how I play. But it's what works best for the group of friends I play with.

The game does pause from time to time, when they need to look up a skill or spell - but I've done what others have suggested. I manage their character sheets - so for all their skills/feats - I put descriptions as to what they are. So they can see quickly on their sheet what "Second Wind" does (and it doesn't mean having gas). I also bought all the D&D Spellcards (for example: https://www.amazon.com/73915-Spellbook-Cards-Arcane-Deck/dp/B01MRVJ1TB) so that the spellcasters can have those in front of them easily.



I don't think they understand the concept of "roleplaying". Or at least, not how to execute it.


In my group, this is common also. One of the players will occasionally roleplay. What you can do is offer those that DO roleplay within their alignment get an INSPIRATION point to use.
Or if you're still using XP for level, rather than Milestone - you can award additional XP for roleplaying. (My DM from eons ago used to do this, and it was a nice touch).

One thing you can do to try and encourage this is have everyone have a folder paper with their character name in front of them, and encourage people to call one another by their character name.




Additionally, my players are consistently infighting due to different class abilities and equipment. The Rogue was complaining about how he only had a +1 dagger while the fighter had a mace that glowed like a torch and dealt an extra point of fire on a hit. He was complaining about it so badly about how he wanted it, that I had to stop the game and tell him that a mace wouldn't even help. I forgot to mention he was complaining about his "non-magical dagger" in front of our paladin who has nothing. The rogue player also complained about how when they got to pick out 350 gp worth of equipment from an armory, that the melee guys (who need heavy armor and weapons) got a better deal due to him already having a rapier and studded leather.


Talk to them about this. Each class has their own specific thing they do. A melee will pay more for armor, but can't sneak. A rogue CAN wear platemail but good luck being successful on that sneak.

A fun thing to do is punish the greedy. Give your Rogue a magic dagger. But one that talks to him when he sleeps.
So that every morning he's tired and his skills are impacted. And any attempt to discard the dagger brings it right back.
Now he has to go on a quest to find a way to remove the cursed blade.
So it does more damage when he uses it - and only if he hits - but put him at Disadvantage on every roll, because he's too tired to fight. ;)

Hope some of this helps too.