Wizard/frenzied barbarian killer

[Foreverknight]

Hello all I had another post about making a new character and that helped me figure out what I would like to play and not play. Now I just need to make a lvl 12 character before Friday.

I'm leaning towards warblade or monk and I would like to be able to beat a wizard that teleports, fire balls, disintegrating rays practically infinitely due to making scrolls all the time and having a bag of holding and to beat a frenzied barbarian who frenzies for 7 turns and has die hard, does tons of dmg and has 136 hp, both are at lvl 12.

These two killed my last character and wouldn't put it past them to try again.

I don't want to be a caster or anything super complicated like multiclassing into 7 different classes. Warblade seems to have a ton of maneuvers/stances and could be complicated (why I'm here) and monk could be easier but not as good?

So I ask you far more experienced players for help on building a lvl 12 character including all skills, feats, items, equipment, weapons, etc. Thanks.

[Crake]

DND isn't like rock paper scissors, there's no surefire way to guarantee a win against a particular class. If you're having trouble with other players killing your character though, that seems like an out of character issue that needs to be sorted out.

[skunk3]

Well that's a tough call since you need to protect yourself from magic AND physical damage. In that case your best bet is probably to play a caster yourself. Take out the barbarian at range and don't let him charge you.

I'd give Eldritch Theurge a shot. Human (or Strongheart Halfling) Warlock 3 / Wizard 3 / Eldritch Theurge 6. I know this is not what you asked for but I think that between the warlock invocations and the wizard spells you'd have a really good chance of taking out the Barbarian, although the Wizard will be more of a challenge. As far as gear goes I'd definitely get a mithral light buckler and add the +1 ghost ward enhancement to it. It lets you add your shield or armor's enhancement bonus to AC vs. touch attacks - which is basically all ray spells. It doesn't help vs. fireballs of course, but you can put it on the buckler AND some light armor (like a mithral chain shirt or something) and have significantly better defense against rays. Other gear worth getting is a vest or cloak of resistance, the best one you can afford, maybe a ring of evasion, etc. The Barbarian would be easy to take out unless he has a flight item, and even then you can still do it. You'd have 5 warlock invocations to select from, and even more if you select the "Extra Invocation" feat. You'd have access to least and lesser invocations. I highly recommend "Flee The Scene" because it's basically a dimension door that you can spam all day long and it leaves behind a major image when you use it, psyching people out. As far as the rest of the invocations go, you'd get access to one that grants crappy flight, one that lets you turn invisible any time you want, and lots of others including 24-hour (permanent, basically) boosts to skills and whatnot. You also get some nifty abilities later on as you continue leveling. Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't be a bad feat to take. Also, the Warlock's eldritch blast is an at-will ability so you can spam it as often as you want, and it has decent range... and one of the least invocations lets you use it from up to 250 feet away. This is all in addition to the wizard spellcasting you'd have... effectively a 9th level wizard.

[PhantasyPen]

I'm sorry but if two PC's ganged up on you and murdered your character (especially if you're new to the game as your post seems to imply) there is a much, much larger problem here than simply being able to beat their characters in a fight. PC's killing one another intentionally is very much a sign of a toxic group, and I would advise you to get out while you still can.

[Telonius]

Is Ghostwalk available? You could prevent them from killing you by already being dead. Ghostly foes would be a huge pain for the Berserker, and the Wizard wouldn't have quite so many of his usual advantages. It sounds like you won't have to worry about any pesky Clerics turning you. Bonus points if it's the ghost of your previously-killed character.

[King of Nowhere]

A monk with the right build could do it. At level 12 you have dimension door once per day and enough saving throws to be likely to survive everything the wizard can do for a few round. there is a feat in the complete warrior that lets you make a single attack after using that monk's dimension door. Dimension door behind the enemy mage, use stunning fist, and if you're not unlucky you will win. Possibly get mage slayer and pierce magical concealment to deal with stuff like invisibility or mirror image. Or maybe buy a vial of dust of apparition.
the barbarian is harder, you need to get improved trip and reach large size (you can do it with a 50gp potion). Now you have reach and a big bonus to tripping, if the barbarian chaarges you get an attack of opportunity, so you trip him and interrupt his charge before he can close in to you. Problem is, you need the actual time to drink that potion. I suggest using the monk's move speed to run away at first, to gain the space to drink the potion.

With that build, you stand a fair chance against either enemy, but you are screwed against both. you can lockdown them, but you lack damage, so you'll need a few rounds to finish them. And you can't disable both at once, nor finish one while the other beats you up.

You'd probably have a better chance with a wizard. try to one-shot the enemy wizard, then you can deal with the barbarian if you survive the round.

That said, if those two other characters are pcs (I am trying to be optimistic and assume they are enemy npcs, but your wording doesn't lean toward that interpretation), then I suggest a big talk in the group, because players are not supposed to kill each other's pc. I suggest leaving the table and finding better player if that is the case. unless it's a pvp game.

[Foreverknight]

A monk with the right build could do it. At level 12 you have dimension door once per day and enough saving throws to be likely to survive everything the wizard can do for a few round. there is a feat in the complete warrior that lets you make a single attack after using that monk's dimension door. Dimension door behind the enemy mage, use stunning fist, and if you're not unlucky you will win. Possibly get mage slayer and pierce magical concealment to deal with stuff like invisibility or mirror image. Or maybe buy a vial of dust of apparition.
the barbarian is harder, you need to get improved trip and reach large size (you can do it with a 50gp potion). Now you have reach and a big bonus to tripping, if the barbarian chaarges you get an attack of opportunity, so you trip him and interrupt his charge before he can close in to you. Problem is, you need the actual time to drink that potion. I suggest using the monk's move speed to run away at first, to gain the space to drink the potion.

With that build, you stand a fair chance against either enemy, but you are screwed against both. you can lockdown them, but you lack damage, so you'll need a few rounds to finish them. And you can't disable both at once, nor finish one while the other beats you up.

You'd probably have a better chance with a wizard. try to one-shot the enemy wizard, then you can deal with the barbarian if you survive the round.

That said, if those two other characters are pcs (I am trying to be optimistic and assume they are enemy npcs, but your wording doesn't lean toward that interpretation), then I suggest a big talk in the group, because players are not supposed to kill each other's pc. I suggest leaving the table and finding better player if that is the case. unless it's a pvp game.

The reason they killed me was because my character was poisoned and they didn't know why I looked ill and then were like kill him before he spreads it. Also It was my first game as a cleric and I was bored with just casting bulls strength and a heal now and then and hold person. I wanted to be in the fight doing dmg so my DM had started to make me a new character unbeknownst to me and the poison was a way to possibly end that character so I could start a new one and enjoy playing more, little did the DM know that our last session I had actually started to like the cleric since I dipped into fighter and had started a church with followers haha. So even know I saw that as a way I could start a new character the cleric in game wouldn't just let himself die so I was a pain to kill me for 4 hours.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The reason they killed me was because my character was poisoned and they didn't know why I looked ill and then were like kill him before he spreads it. Also It was my first game as a cleric and I was bored with just casting bulls strength and a heal now and then and hold person. I wanted to be in the fight doing dmg so my DM had started to make me a new character unbeknownst to me and the poison was a way to possibly end that character so I could start a new one and enjoy playing more, little did the DM know that our last session I had actually started to like the cleric since I dipped into fighter and had started a church with followers haha. So even know I saw that as a way I could start a new character the cleric in game wouldn't just let himself die so I was a pain to kill me for 4 hours.It seems like your party members would only attack you if the players perceived an OOC reason to do so. Thus, the best defense is to flatly tell the other players that you like your new character and would prefer if they didn't attack this one.

That said, a frenzied berserker can kill party members on accident, so you probably want a way to avoid getting murdered via bad game mechanics. My solution: Make sure no one can actually locate you. To do this, you take the following steps.

1. Be a Whisper Gnome (RoS) or other sneaky race.
2. Take a stealthy skill-y class as your main class, and put max ranks in hide/move silently.
3. Get as many items and class features that pump hide/move silently as you can. The biggest one is a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic), but others include items that provide circumstance bonuses, items or class features that provide competence bonuses, and items/wands that affect size.
4. Take the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness), and the most common stealth no-sells are foiled. This step is crucial. Darkstalker doesn't mean you're completely undetectable, since there exist very specific counters, but without it stealth is just painfully unreliable.
5. Hide always. If you don't trust your team mates, and you still want to play with them, you have to hide from them. You have a built-in excuse with Mr. Ticking Time Bomb barbarian buddy, since he's not in complete control of when he turns on the party.

From here it depends on what route you want to go. Beguiler (PHBII) is a relatively straightforward fixed list caster who excels in a stealthy role. You mostly just have to take beguiler, possibly with a Mindbender 1 dip (Complete Arcane) for Mindsight (Lords of Madness), or there are some cheesier options (e.g. eventually getting the entire Cleric list spontaneously with Rainbow Servant).

But it seems like you don't want a caster, even an easier-to-manage one. Dipping is really, really useful for non-casters, but you can add or take away whatever you'd like. The build I'd go with would look something like Lightbringer Rogue 1 (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft)/Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) Cleric 1/Hit and Run Fighter 1 (Drow of the Underdark)/Whirling Frenzy (SRD) Spiritual Lion Totem (Complete Champion) Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1/Rogue the rest of the way. If your DM doesn't enforce Multiclass XP penalties, replace "Rogue the rest of the way" with "Swordsage the rest of the way."

Cloistered Cleric nets you Knowledge Devotion (all devotion feats are complete champion) and a broad choice of other devotion feats and domains. My favorites include Magic Domain (no-hassle wand use), Pride Domain (re-roll 1s on saving throws, pairs well with evasion), and of course Travel Devotion (move as a swift action all combat, burn TU attempts to get more uses). Hit and Run Fighter gets you dex as a competence bonus to damage when your opponent is flat-footed, and you don't have to deny dex. Barbarian gets you pounce (key) and Whirling Frenzy (extra attack, other bennies, 1/day). Swordsage gets useful stances (Island of Blades), qualifies you for Shadow Blade (dex to damage), and some useful abilities like [Ex] teleportation and concentration checks replacing saves (if you want to pump concentration).

Your strategy in combat is to always be in stealth mode, darting in and out of melee. Tumble will be your third most important skill. If the DM is fair you should be getting a good number of surprise rounds just by being an incredibly stealthy scout and seeing enemies before they see you. Before initiating the surprise round, activate buffs including travel devotion. In the surprise round you pounce a flat-footed opponent, adding possible sneak attack plus double dex to damage on your suite of attacks. With the right setup you'll be winning initiative quite a bit, in which case your opponent is still flat footed, and you're right next to him getting a second full attack off before he acts... and then you slink away with a swift action before his buddies can retaliate. See if you can get your wizard "buddy" to prepare a Rary's Telepathic Bond to put up before these situations.

Other key feats: Craven (Champions of Ruin), Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade (ToB), possibly the TWF chain if you can manage flaws/feats (I prefer dipping Totemist 2, binding Girallon Arms to the totem chakra, convincing the DM that they're real arms that can hold shortswords, and nabbing Multiweapon Fighting)
Other key items: Something that grants flight at least temporarily, Ring of Anticipation (Drow of the Underdark), +dex items, Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark), Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) with a Wand of Wraithstrike (SpC), other initiative-pumping items (e.g. Sandals of the Vagabond [MiC])

With this setup the barbarian won't be able to find you when he goes nuts every once in a while, and if the wizard does get cheeky he won't be able to locate your square for disintegrate and you'll evasion his AoEs.

Other ways to specifically deal with FBs in the party:
- Calm Emotions
- Grease or Marbles, since FBs are imbalanced /rimshot, but seriously they can't make balance checks
- Invisibility
- Being faster than the FB or being able to travel where he cannot when he eventually goes nuts
- Pumping initiative, which is what you were doing with the above build anyway, so that when Unexpected Frenzy Combat starts you don't get killed before you can act

[noob]

Or simpler way:
Play a cleric who prepares ice slick each day.
frenzied bersekers can not succeed in balance checks while frenzied.
And have some ready battle spells fit to beat a wizard should you need to(including stuff like bfc and awesome domain spells like invisibility from trickery domain)
Do not forget you can skip the pick a god step and go straight to picking domains unless the campaign setting says otherwise.
Travel domain is also awesome against wizards.(protects you from a bunch of bfc without spending actions on a round per round need basis)
if the wizard feels he can not beat you easily you can probably discuss with him and the berseker easier.

[King of Nowhere]

The reason they killed me was because my character was poisoned and they didn't know why I looked ill and then were like kill him before he spreads it. Also It was my first game as a cleric and I was bored with just casting bulls strength and a heal now and then and hold person.

Huh. If your companions were level 12, it's likely you were too. At that level you should have access to stuff like flame strike, blade barrier, slay living, harm, just to stay simple without any crazy combo. A cleric is not the best damage dealer among spellcasters, but he can still nuke passably past level 5, and he has some of the best save-or-die spells of the game.

If you want to fight instead, cast buff spells on yourself before the combat. Divine power, divine favor, prayer, there are a lot of spells that make you more effective in combat. the only tricky part there is that most of them last one round per level, so you need to know in advance when you'll trigger a battle in the next minute, which is not always the case. If you try to buff yourself once the fight starts, it will end before you're done casting.

[Falontani]

Kobold
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 14




Lvl

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


1

Bard

0

+0

+2

+2


Dragonwrought, Dragonfire Inspiration,

Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1



2

Bard

+1

+0

+3

+3






3

Bard

+2

+1

+3

+3


Snowflake Wardance

Inspire Competence



4

Bard

+3

+1

+4

+4



+1 Int



5

Bard

+3

+1

+4

+4






6

Bard

+4

+2

+5

+5


Melodic Casting

Song of the Heart



7

Bard

+5

+2

+5

+5






8

Bard

+6

+2

+6

+6



Inspire Courage +2, +1 Wis



9

Fighter

+7

+4

+6

+6


Words of Creation, Combat Expertise(B)




10

Swordsage

+7

+4

+8

+8


Weapon Focus: Desert Wind or Shadow Hand

Quick to Act +1



11

Warchanter

+8

+6

+8

+8



Inspire Toughness, Warchanter Music



12

Fighter

+9

+7

+8

+8


Desert Wind Dodge, Mobility(B)

+1 str



13

Crusader

+10

+9

+8

+8



Steely Resolve, Furious Counterstrike



14

Warchanter

+11

+10

+8

+8






15

Warchanter

+12

+10

+9

+9


Elusive Target

Inspire Recklessness



16

Dervish

+13

+10

+11

+11



Dervish Dance, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, +1 str



17

Dervish

+14

+10

+12

+12



Fast Movement +5



18

Dervish

+15

+11

+12

+12


Spring Attack(B), Einhander

Dervish Dance 2/day



19

Dervish

+16

+11

+13

+13



Dance of Death



20

Dervish

+17

+11

+13

+13



Fast Movement +10, Dervish Dance 3/day, +1 str




Notable Spells: Haste, displacement, Cure spells, Inspirational Boost; honestly you really dont need all that much magic, its mainly for Inspirational Boost, self healing, and buffs

Notable Equipment: nothing in offhand, a 1H slashing weapon, badge of valor

Basic Rundown: Swift Action cast inspirational boost or activate badge of valor (if you can use both then that is awesome!) Standard Action: Activate Dragonfire Inspiration with Words of Creation to grant yourself and allies +7d6 or +8d6 fire (if you would like a different element just change what color DWK you are, but I suggest gold) damage/hit (depends on where YOUR DM counts inspirational boost/badge of valor, if words of creation doubles base inspiration only then its 7d6, if it doubles after boost/badge takes effect then it is 8d6), enter into Dervish Dance, and Snowflake Wardance.
Next Round: If you have time before engaging your enemy give yourself haste, if you have more time you can cast displacement, just dont forget to actually close to melee and fight, your buffs are nice, but if you dont use close to melee they are worthless!


With Everything: You attack 5 times per round, each attack getting the +7-8d6 fire damage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Crusader 8/Incarnate 4. Build's in my signature; just add 4 levels crusader.

[Foreverknight]

It seems like your party members would only attack you if the players perceived an OOC reason to do so. Thus, the best defense is to flatly tell the other players that you like your new character and would prefer if they didn't attack this one.

That said, a frenzied berserker can kill party members on accident, so you probably want a way to avoid getting murdered via bad game mechanics. My solution: Make sure no one can actually locate you. To do this, you take the following steps.

1. Be a Whisper Gnome (RoS) or other sneaky race.
2. Take a stealthy skill-y class as your main class, and put max ranks in hide/move silently.
3. Get as many items and class features that pump hide/move silently as you can. The biggest one is a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic), but others include items that provide circumstance bonuses, items or class features that provide competence bonuses, and items/wands that affect size.
4. Take the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness), and the most common stealth no-sells are foiled. This step is crucial. Darkstalker doesn't mean you're completely undetectable, since there exist very specific counters, but without it stealth is just painfully unreliable.
5. Hide always. If you don't trust your team mates, and you still want to play with them, you have to hide from them. You have a built-in excuse with Mr. Ticking Time Bomb barbarian buddy, since he's not in complete control of when he turns on the party.

From here it depends on what route you want to go. Beguiler (PHBII) is a relatively straightforward fixed list caster who excels in a stealthy role. You mostly just have to take beguiler, possibly with a Mindbender 1 dip (Complete Arcane) for Mindsight (Lords of Madness), or there are some cheesier options (e.g. eventually getting the entire Cleric list spontaneously with Rainbow Servant).

But it seems like you don't want a caster, even an easier-to-manage one. Dipping is really, really useful for non-casters, but you can add or take away whatever you'd like. The build I'd go with would look something like Lightbringer Rogue 1 (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft)/Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) Cleric 1/Hit and Run Fighter 1 (Drow of the Underdark)/Whirling Frenzy (SRD) Spiritual Lion Totem (Complete Champion) Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1/Rogue the rest of the way. If your DM doesn't enforce Multiclass XP penalties, replace "Rogue the rest of the way" with "Swordsage the rest of the way."

Cloistered Cleric nets you Knowledge Devotion (all devotion feats are complete champion) and a broad choice of other devotion feats and domains. My favorites include Magic Domain (no-hassle wand use), Pride Domain (re-roll 1s on saving throws, pairs well with evasion), and of course Travel Devotion (move as a swift action all combat, burn TU attempts to get more uses). Hit and Run Fighter gets you dex as a competence bonus to damage when your opponent is flat-footed, and you don't have to deny dex. Barbarian gets you pounce (key) and Whirling Frenzy (extra attack, other bennies, 1/day). Swordsage gets useful stances (Island of Blades), qualifies you for Shadow Blade (dex to damage), and some useful abilities like [Ex] teleportation and concentration checks replacing saves (if you want to pump concentration).

Your strategy in combat is to always be in stealth mode, darting in and out of melee. Tumble will be your third most important skill. If the DM is fair you should be getting a good number of surprise rounds just by being an incredibly stealthy scout and seeing enemies before they see you. Before initiating the surprise round, activate buffs including travel devotion. In the surprise round you pounce a flat-footed opponent, adding possible sneak attack plus double dex to damage on your suite of attacks. With the right setup you'll be winning initiative quite a bit, in which case your opponent is still flat footed, and you're right next to him getting a second full attack off before he acts... and then you slink away with a swift action before his buddies can retaliate. See if you can get your wizard "buddy" to prepare a Rary's Telepathic Bond to put up before these situations.

Other key feats: Craven (Champions of Ruin), Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade (ToB), possibly the TWF chain if you can manage flaws/feats (I prefer dipping Totemist 2, binding Girallon Arms to the totem chakra, convincing the DM that they're real arms that can hold shortswords, and nabbing Multiweapon Fighting)
Other key items: Something that grants flight at least temporarily, Ring of Anticipation (Drow of the Underdark), +dex items, Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark), Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) with a Wand of Wraithstrike (SpC), other initiative-pumping items (e.g. Sandals of the Vagabond [MiC])

With this setup the barbarian won't be able to find you when he goes nuts every once in a while, and if the wizard does get cheeky he won't be able to locate your square for disintegrate and you'll evasion his AoEs.

Other ways to specifically deal with FBs in the party:
- Calm Emotions
- Grease or Marbles, since FBs are imbalanced /rimshot, but seriously they can't make balance checks
- Invisibility
- Being faster than the FB or being able to travel where he cannot when he eventually goes nuts
- Pumping initiative, which is what you were doing with the above build anyway, so that when Unexpected Frenzy Combat starts you don't get killed before you can act


That seemed very complicated lol

[Foreverknight]

Kobold
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 14




Lvl

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


1

Bard

0

+0

+2

+2


Dragonwrought, Dragonfire Inspiration,

Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1



2

Bard

+1

+0

+3

+3






3

Bard

+2

+1

+3

+3


Snowflake Wardance

Inspire Competence



4

Bard

+3

+1

+4

+4



+1 Int



5

Bard

+3

+1

+4

+4






6

Bard

+4

+2

+5

+5


Melodic Casting

Song of the Heart



7

Bard

+5

+2

+5

+5






8

Bard

+6

+2

+6

+6



Inspire Courage +2, +1 Wis



9

Fighter

+7

+4

+6

+6


Words of Creation, Combat Expertise(B)




10

Swordsage

+7

+4

+8

+8


Weapon Focus: Desert Wind or Shadow Hand

Quick to Act +1



11

Warchanter

+8

+6

+8

+8



Inspire Toughness, Warchanter Music



12

Fighter

+9

+7

+8

+8


Desert Wind Dodge, Mobility(B)

+1 str



13

Crusader

+10

+9

+8

+8



Steely Resolve, Furious Counterstrike



14

Warchanter

+11

+10

+8

+8






15

Warchanter

+12

+10

+9

+9


Elusive Target

Inspire Recklessness



16

Dervish

+13

+10

+11

+11



Dervish Dance, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, +1 str



17

Dervish

+14

+10

+12

+12



Fast Movement +5



18

Dervish

+15

+11

+12

+12


Spring Attack(B), Einhander

Dervish Dance 2/day



19

Dervish

+16

+11

+13

+13



Dance of Death



20

Dervish

+17

+11

+13

+13



Fast Movement +10, Dervish Dance 3/day, +1 str




Notable Spells: Haste, displacement, Cure spells, Inspirational Boost; honestly you really dont need all that much magic, its mainly for Inspirational Boost, self healing, and buffs

Notable Equipment: nothing in offhand, a 1H slashing weapon, badge of valor

Basic Rundown: Swift Action cast inspirational boost or activate badge of valor (if you can use both then that is awesome!) Standard Action: Activate Dragonfire Inspiration with Words of Creation to grant yourself and allies +7d6 or +8d6 fire (if you would like a different element just change what color DWK you are, but I suggest gold) damage/hit (depends on where YOUR DM counts inspirational boost/badge of valor, if words of creation doubles base inspiration only then its 7d6, if it doubles after boost/badge takes effect then it is 8d6), enter into Dervish Dance, and Snowflake Wardance.
Next Round: If you have time before engaging your enemy give yourself haste, if you have more time you can cast displacement, just dont forget to actually close to melee and fight, your buffs are nice, but if you dont use close to melee they are worthless!


With Everything: You attack 5 times per round, each attack getting the +7-8d6 fire damage.




Which books do I find all that in? And which skills would I take?

[Falontani]

Which books do I find all that in? And which skills would I take?

Bard, Fighter, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, Mobility: PHB
Dragonwrought, Kobold: Races of the Dragon
Dragonfire Inspiration: Dragon Magic
Snowflake Wardance: Frostburn
Melodic Spellcasting: Complete Mage
Words of Creation: Book of Exalted Deeds
Swordsage, Crusader, Desert Wind Dodge: Tome of Battle
Elusive Target, Warchanter, Dervish: Complete Warrior
Einhander: Player's Handbook II

Special note: Song of the Heart is from Eberron Campaign Setting, it replaces Suggestion from the Bard abilities


Skills: you have a large number of skill points to play around with, you only need Perform

[Goaty14]

Maybe you should just make whatever character you'd like + an item that tells your folks that you're just poisoned, and there is no reason to cull you as if you had a disease. I don't think there is any reason to assume your mates were out to get out or anything.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That seemed very complicated lolComplicated to build, easy to play. If you want easier to build, slightly more complicated to play, take the beguiler option. Take Beguiler 6 levels, then one level of Mindbender, then Beguiler the rest of the way. Take the Darkstalker and Mindsight feats. Buy the collar. Max stealth skills. Done. You're a stealthy enchantment-focused caster.

[Foreverknight]

Complicated to build, easy to play. If you want easier to build, slightly more complicated to play, take the beguiler option. Take Beguiler 6 levels, then one level of Mindbender, then Beguiler the rest of the way. Take the Darkstalker and Mindsight feats. Buy the collar. Max stealth skills. Done. You're a stealthy enchantment-focused caster.



What happens when you are in open terrain?

[Foreverknight]

Bard, Fighter, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, Mobility: PHB
Dragonwrought, Kobold: Races of the Dragon
Dragonfire Inspiration: Dragon Magic
Snowflake Wardance: Frostburn
Melodic Spellcasting: Complete Mage
Words of Creation: Book of Exalted Deeds
Swordsage, Crusader, Desert Wind Dodge: Tome of Battle
Elusive Target, Warchanter, Dervish: Complete Warrior
Einhander: Player's Handbook II

Special note: Song of the Heart is from Eberron Campaign Setting, it replaces Suggestion from the Bard abilities


Skills: you have a large number of skill points to play around with, you only need Perform


So perform is the only important skill? Wouldn't charismatic skills be useful to a bard? Speaking outside of just fighting those two that is.

Also how well is this going to work as a lvl 12?

Was the ability points an average roll? Because when they began to make a new character they left the ability points there but erased other stuff so they weren't giving me a full character. Idk off hand what they were but I know he had an 19 in dex bumped to 22 with gloves and a 16 somewhere.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What happens when you are in open terrain?That's why the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is important. It grants you the properties of a Dark Creature, including Hide in Plain Sight in anything except daylight (or the spell Daylight).

For those times where the DM gets frustrated and puts you into a completely open field in broad daylight with no cover where you must have a fight, you need to engineer your own solution. You could get a custom item of No Light (BoVD), or if the DM doesn't go for that a few wands should work in a pinch. It's just 250 gp a wand, so it's not so bad. If you're willing to invest in a little wisdom and a feat, you can take the Arcane Disciple feat to add the spells from the Shadow Domain (ECS) to your spell list. Because Beguiler is a fixed-list caster he automatically knows all of those spells. Then cast Deeper Darkness, which lasts days/level, on a regular old ring you normally keep covered (preventing the spread of darkness), and when you really need to create an area of shadowy illumination you just uncover the ring. In this case (in any case, really) you'll also want some UMD and a wand of Ebon Eyes (SpC).

[Goaty14]

For those times where the DM gets frustrated

Or you just deal with the DM being a little frustrated and play off the single challenge he gives you. If your DM consistently puts you in an open field at noon, pull him aside OOC and figure out if he's annoyed, if it's for plot, etc. Whatever you do, do NOT provoke an annoyed DM, you WILL lose.

That said, if the DM doesn't hate you or anything, couldn't you just use the shade from your own umbrella?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Or you just deal with the DM being a little frustrated and play off the single challenge he gives you. If your DM consistently puts you in an open field at noon, pull him aside OOC and figure out if he's annoyed, if it's for plot, etc. Whatever you do, do NOT provoke an annoyed DM, you WILL lose.I was being a little glib. You might end up in some situations in broad daylight and little in the way of cover even with a reasonable DM. I don't think preparing counter measures in that instance is too provocative. I agree that a DM who always does this requires a discussion OOC.

That said, if the DM doesn't hate you or anything, couldn't you just use the shade from your own umbrella?That would work for the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability, which only requires that you be near "a shadow ... that isn't your own," but it wouldn't work for a Dark Creature, since you'd still be "in daylight" under that umbrella. The superior HipS is one reason why Shadowdancer is possibly worth taking despite the painful three prerequisite feats you wouldn't normally take (well, maybe combat reflexes).

[DMVerdandi]

1. Didn't you make a thread about this about a week or two ago? I understand you want to find a solution, but try to either take the advise, put a polite bump out, or study more, rather than cloning your thread so many times. You got pretty much the same advice last time. That being your group might be toxic, you wasted your cleric due to inexperience [not REALLY your fault, but could have been rectified by studying a little more], and then people gave you a bunch of complex builds due to your unique demands.

2. In 3.5, the simpler the idea behind your build [And further away from T1 classes it is], the more complicated it is to make them able to do anything. The T1 classes are extremely simple, because you could pick the most ineffective and inefficient feats, and so long as you have 18 in your casting stat, and have at least a little bit of strategy, you don't need anything else. Does that mean "HEY, Play a T1 and stop complaining/get good". No, but certainly those are options to your problem.

If you want to play a martial class, and want to win against these two, it's going to be hard for no more reason than they get two turns to one of yours. Then you factor in that they seem to be a tad more experienced, and you are going to get eviscerated. Like another poster said, it's not rock paper scissors, it's rock, paper, scissors, god.


Warblade is good, when supported by a team, but you aren't being supported by a team. It's got a bit more independence than the normal mundane classes, but still falls REAL short of utility. So it's better than most non-pounce melee builds, but not good enough really to beat a mid-level wizard with any common sense; It seems like your wizard isn't really picking the most optimal combat choices yet, so you have an opportunity to overcome him alone, but not with the berserker playing vanguard at the same time.
Monk is too hard for you to play effectively, and it has a lot of shortcomings, that being it's lower BAB for a combat class, Multiple Abilities that they have to have high scores in, and needs obscure combos and support to really make a difference.




So yeah, play one of those, get gimped, and realize the mechanical problems with what you want, as well as the social problems in your group. They sound like wannabe grognards, and really the DM does too, since you were the sole healer in the group and he concocted an incurable poison and poisoned you, if I remember correctly from the last thread. That's INSANE railroading, and you guys are supposed to be playing a team game, not PVP, unless that's what you agreed to.


If you want to roleplay whatever concept you want, then I suggest finding a newbie friendly game, and possibly a more supportive system for physical combat, and joining one of those. If you just want to win, remove your class stipulations and play something strong, and win, rather than trying to get us to squeeze blood from a stone for you.


Even middling power classes would be good. Battle sorcerer, or favored soul or something, But it's an exercise in futility for you to just re-make the same thread every week, especially when everyone already told you how to make a warblade before.


Read handbooks on how to properly build a T1 class, build it, and win.
Mundane classes are Hard mode in this game, and really, you aren't ready, because you need arguably more knowledge of supplement content, how the content interacts, and some strategies under your belt.

Rant over.

[Foreverknight]

1. Didn't you make a thread about this about a week or two ago?.

Well the last one was for any martial class and then this one I wanted to focus on warblade or monk so I figured I'd make a new thread and express that but also reiterate what was going on for new people posting. I'm also not spamming it every week, I have two posts and didn't plan on making any more.

[Falontani]

So perform is the only important skill? Wouldn't charismatic skills be useful to a bard? Speaking outside of just fighting those two that is.

Also how well is this going to work as a lvl 12?

Was the ability points an average roll? Because when they began to make a new character they left the ability points there but erased other stuff so they weren't giving me a full character. Idk off hand what they were but I know he had an 19 in dex bumped to 22 with gloves and a 16 somewhere.

The point buy was 32, which is what is usually used. I don't have your actual stats so I don't know if this works. You need a 15 wis and 15 int by level 9 for words of creation, and you need 13 dex by level 12 for desert wind dodge. Otherwise your stats are just there to boost damage, spellcasting, and survivability.

There are a mess load of skills you could use, and you have a bunch of points to use them with. Suggestions:
Perform
Tumble
Hide
Move silently
Use magic device
However you can probably get even more. It largely depends on what role you want to play. If you still want to heal you'll need umd and wands/scrolls. If you want to scout you'll need hide, move silently, and spot. If you only want to damage and buff you'll probably want to pick up a few skill tricks from complete scoundrel. Etc

[Jarmen4u]

Do what I did for the extremely lethal game I play in: Make an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, possibly with some Incantatrix levels (3 minimum), and persist the personal wards. The build is considered really, really strong, but it won't be game-breaking as long as you focus purely on defense.

Hell, if you want to stay as a melee, you could just pick up a sword and a few buff spells, and go to town.

[Foreverknight]

The point buy was 32, which is what is usually used. I don't have your actual stats so I don't know if this works. You need a 15 wis and 15 int by level 9 for words of creation, and you need 13 dex by level 12 for desert wind dodge. Otherwise your stats are just there to boost damage, spellcasting, and survivability.

There are a mess load of skills you could use, and you have a bunch of points to use them with. Suggestions:
Perform
Tumble
Hide
Move silently
Use magic device
However you can probably get even more. It largely depends on what role you want to play. If you still want to heal you'll need umd and wands/scrolls. If you want to scout you'll need hide, move silently, and spot. If you only want to damage and buff you'll probably want to pick up a few skill tricks from complete scoundrel. Etc


Right now the character they were making has:

STR:15
DEX:19
CON:16
INT:13
WIS:12
CHA:12

So would this look better for the bard:

STR:12
DEX:15
CON:12
INT:13
WIS:16
CHA:19

Or should I just take from con or cha and pump up something else more?

My hope is that I won't have to fight the two so I plan to really act like a bard and make that fun but then surprise people by doing alot of damage when I decide to fight.

[Falontani]

Right now the character they were making has:

STR:15
DEX:19
CON:16
INT:13
WIS:12
CHA:12

So would this look better for the bard:

STR:12
DEX:15
CON:12
INT:13
WIS:16
CHA:19

Or should I just take from con or cha and pump up something else more?

My hope is that I won't have to fight the two so I plan to really act like a bard and make that fun but then surprise people by doing alot of damage when I decide to fight.

That would work well if you are able to put your 2 level ups into Intelligence, if that is counting your level ups then you'll have to switch int with dex in order to qualify for the feat. (although with racial modifiers that still may not work) for that I would talk with your DM figure out how your doing your stats.

The awesome thing to remember about your bard, your dragonfire inspiration (that gives fire damage) will also apply to anyone else that uses melee or ranged weapons! So your barbarian "friend" will also get that damage and it will help him like you a bit more.

[Foreverknight]

That would work well if you are able to put your 2 level ups into Intelligence, if that is counting your level ups then you'll have to switch int with dex in order to qualify for the feat. (although with racial modifiers that still may not work) for that I would talk with your DM figure out how your doing your stats.

The awesome thing to remember about your bard, your dragonfire inspiration (that gives fire damage) will also apply to anyone else that uses melee or ranged weapons! So your barbarian "friend" will also get that damage and it will help him like you a bit more.

I'll ask, so the most important abilities are cha, wis and int? Any one over the other?

[Eldariel]

The point buy was 32, which is what is usually used. I don't have your actual stats so I don't know if this works. You need a 15 wis and 15 int by level 9 for words of creation, and you need 13 dex by level 12 for desert wind dodge. Otherwise your stats are just there to boost damage, spellcasting, and survivability.

There are a mess load of skills you could use, and you have a bunch of points to use them with. Suggestions:
Perform
Tumble
Hide
Move silently
Use magic device
However you can probably get even more. It largely depends on what role you want to play. If you still want to heal you'll need umd and wands/scrolls. If you want to scout you'll need hide, move silently, and spot. If you only want to damage and buff you'll probably want to pick up a few skill tricks from complete scoundrel. Etc

Words of Creation require Cha, not Wis. Wis is a good dump for Bards (the only possible one for many builds) lest you wish to use Arcane Disciple.

[Falontani]

Words of Creation require Cha, not Wis. Wis is a good dump for Bards (the only possible one for many builds) lest you wish to use Arcane Disciple.

My goodness your right, yea dump wis on the build. dump it into the dirt! This build needs no wisdom!

[Foreverknight]

My goodness your right, yea dump wis on the build. dump it into the dirt! This build needs no wisdom!

Lol well is kobold the best race to use? The minus 4 to str seems rough.

[Falontani]

one of the best races for it. Silverbrow human can do it too, DWK you can choose your color (allowing you to do damage types other than fire) and with slight build (kobold ability) you can share a square with medium+ creatures! You get +2 to hit to offset your str penalty, and get +2 AC too. I chose DWK specifically because the mental image of a tiny kobold besting a frenzied berserker is too awesome

[Foreverknight]

one of the best races for it. Silverbrow human can do it too, DWK you can choose your color (allowing you to do damage types other than fire) and with slight build (kobold ability) you can share a square with medium+ creatures! You get +2 to hit to offset your str penalty, and get +2 AC too. I chose DWK specifically because the mental image of a tiny kobold besting a frenzied berserker is too awesome


Oh I see, the thought of being a dragonborn sounds awesome and thinking of how I'm going to have to role play a bard kobold for social interactions is going to be challenging to say the least lol

The DM said they rolled those stats so I'm assuming they did a 4D6 remove the lowest die. I think they added the level up ability points as well but I just asked him.

[Foreverknight]

My goodness your right, yea dump wis on the build. dump it into the dirt! This build needs no wisdom!

STR:14
DEX:14
CON:12
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:19

Is this good? After bonuses and negatives it will be this:

STR:10
DEX:16
CON:10
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:19

[Eldariel]

STR:14
DEX:14
CON:12
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:19

Is this good? After bonuses and negatives it will be this:

STR:10
DEX:16
CON:10
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:19

14 Con instead of Str and Desert Kobold (-2 Wis instead of Con) so you can roll 14 Con and actually not die to the slightest breeze or first save-or-die. I'm not all that certain that Kobold without age categories is a particularly optimal choice, but it's probably fine.

[Falontani]

He could use the age categories. No reason not to

[Foreverknight]

14 Con instead of Str and Desert Kobold (-2 Wis instead of Con) so you can roll 14 Con and actually not die to the slightest breeze or first save-or-die. I'm not all that certain that Kobold without age categories is a particularly optimal choice, but it's probably fine.

Well if I put 12 in str I'll be at 8, so negative stats, what is the age about? And he was saying I need to be dragon wrought kobold.

[Foreverknight]

He could use the age categories. No reason not to



What about the age?

[noob]

And he was saying I need to be dragon wrought kobold.
Those kobolds does not gets the aging penalties and still gets the bonuses(and possibly gets additional bonuses depending on the reading) which makes them have interest in always using the maximum age for getting tons of stat boosts.

[Foreverknight]

Those kobolds does not gets the aging penalties and still gets the bonuses(and possibly gets additional bonuses depending on the reading) which makes them have interest in always using the maximum age for getting tons of stat boosts.

Where is that found at?

[ExLibrisMortis]

PHB 109, it's +3 to all mental ability scores (INT, WIS, CHA).

[Foreverknight]

PHB 109, it's +3 to all mental ability scores (INT, WIS, CHA).

Thanks, so just have to be 121 years old lol

[Foreverknight]

He could use the age categories. No reason not to

Is their also a way to fit weapon finesse in to the build so it would use DEX instead of Str?

[Falontani]

If you really want to then you can drop levels of warchanter for swashbuckler. You could also get intelligence to damage that way.

[Foreverknight]

If you really want to then you can drop levels of warchanter for swashbuckler. You could also get intelligence to damage that way.

Wouldn't I have to drop a feat to get weapon finesse?

[Foreverknight]

If you really want to then you can drop levels of warchanter for swashbuckler. You could also get intelligence to damage that way.

And if i got venerable desert dragonwrought kobold my stats would be:

STR:10
DEX:16
CON:12
INT:19
WIS:13
CHA:22

[Falontani]

Swashbuckler gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat. And yea, dwk is powerful

[Foreverknight]

Swashbuckler gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat. And yea, dwk is powerful

So is it better to get swashbuckler over war chanter?

[Falontani]

So is it better to get swashbuckler over war chanter?

That is up to you what is worth more, more bard songs/day and inspire recklessness, or weapon finesse and intelligence to damage

[Foreverknight]

That is up to you what is worth more, more bard songs/day and inspire recklessness, or weapon finesse and intelligence to damage

Do you think it's enough dmg without adding the DEX?

I was going to take Cresent knife and celestial armor, haven't thought of any other good equipment yet and might take a bow.

[Foreverknight]

That is up to you what is worth more, more bard songs/day and inspire recklessness, or weapon finesse and intelligence to damage

What if I take 1 lvl in fighter which still gives me two feats and then instead of lvl 2 in fighter I take swashbuckler and get weapon finesse for free and another feat? I'd still end up at the same bonuses and amount of feats right?

[Falontani]

You wouldn't get another feat. Swashbuckler doesn't grant a bonus feat. Feats are based off hd (1, and multiples of 3) and listed bonus feats (where fighter gets one at 1, and every even level)

So no it wouldn't

[Foreverknight]

You wouldn't get another feat. Swashbuckler doesn't grant a bonus feat. Feats are based off hd (1, and multiples of 3) and listed bonus feats (where fighter gets one at 1, and every even level)

So no it wouldn't

So fighter doesn't get two feats at lvl one?

Unless I have it wrong it looks like fighter gets two feats at lvl 1 and 1 more feat at lvl 2 for a total of 3 feats by lvl two.

Then if I take swashbuckler instead of lvl 2 fighter I would get 1 feat for 1st lvl and weapon finesse for free.

Unless I'm reading it wrong it seems like I'd have the same amount of feats available plus the free class one (weapon finesse). And I would get a few more skill points.

Do I have this wrong?

[Quertus]

So fighter doesn't get two feats at lvl one?

This hurts to read.

All characters get a feat at first (character) level, and every three (character) levels.

The Fighter gets a bonus feat at first (class) level, and every even (class) level.

Humans get an extra feat.

So, a first level human fighter has 3 feats.

A first level human bard has two feats. If he talks his second level as fighter, he gets an extra fighter feat. If he talks his third level as Fighter, he gets a feat for being character level 3, and a bonus Fighter feat for Fighter 2.

Now, for completeness, replace "character level" with "hit dice".

Clear as mud?