Build theory: how low is too low for casters?

[Buufreak]

I'm going to take part in an arena based game, with the entire purpose of killing the opponent's team. There is no chance for advancement, no plot, no need for anything beyond 2v2, level 6, kill or be killed, and bragging rights.

So I got to thinking, as my team is going for a lockdown reach crusader and a mailman caster, if I am going to rely entirely on touch attacks, not giving a crap about saves (because others have already mentioned running turbo-save bot for their builds), do I need a high caster stat? 2 points grant me an extra spell to cast, but with a level 6 elite array whisper gnome, I can have +5 to hit before BAB and to AC. Do I absolutely need higher than a 13 Cha/Int for this build?

[Calthropstu]

If you're a wizard getting that extra spell per day could be crucial. A sorcerer not so much.
Bumping that dex is huge though since sr will likely be a nonissue, and if this is 3.5 concentration uses con not caster stat (pf uses caster stat)
So in this game type, 13 caster stat in favor of pumping your dex is perfectly fine.

[ryu]

More int means more spellslots means access to resources to make better plans. Do I need to explain the value of NERVESKITTER in an arena fight?

[Calthropstu]

More int means more spellslots means access to resources to make better plans. Do I need to explain the value of NERVESKITTER in an arena fight?

Except dex in this type of combat is just as valuable as that extra 3rd level spell slot.

[Efrate]

Is argue dex is a lot more valuable than an extra spell slot. You will have multiple shots likely since I doubt a lone spell will end an encounter, and more to hit is going to mean a lot more. It also helps initiative a bit which is nice. Touch a.c. is good, but flat footed touch a.c. is usually better because it's usually going to be ten.

[Buufreak]

If you're a wizard getting that extra spell per day could be crucial. A sorcerer not so much.
Bumping that dex is huge though since sr will likely be a nonissue, and if this is 3.5 concentration uses con not caster stat (pf uses caster stat)
So in this game type, 13 caster stat in favor of pumping your dex is perfectly fine.

Yes, definitely 3.5, my con as whisper gnome is 16, right behind my dex of 18.


More int means more spellslots means access to resources to make better plans. Do I need to explain the value of NERVESKITTER in an arena fight?

Noted, but its an immediate that I take when rolling init, and I will likely throw it at my friendly BSF.


Except dex in this type of combat is just as valuable as that extra 3rd level spell slot.

Well, I lose a 2nd and 3rd, but eh, details.


Is argue dex is a lot more valuable than an extra spell slot. You will have multiple shots likely since I doubt a lone spell will end an encounter, and more to hit is going to mean a lot more. It also helps initiative a bit which is nice. Touch a.c. is good, but flat footed touch a.c. is usually better because it's usually going to be ten.

Its an arena, trumpets blowing and all that, so likely not many are getting caught flat footed. Still, with the stats that everyone is working with, my worst case scenario of an all Dex/Wis Monk has a touch of 18 (10 + 1 bonus + 4 dex + 3 wis) meaning I hit on a 10, so its better than a 50/50, and far more than likely I won't be facing such a character. Even if I did, the friendly BSF has within all likelihood 18 str and +6 bab, hitting the guy far easier than I on an 8.

So that's great, this is about what I was thinking, I just wanted to see if the idea was well supported. As a mild spinoff, what kind of action does it take to draw and cast from a scroll? We were also given a 13K budget, and spacing out my spells with a cost effective buffer is a great idea. I'm honestly thinking of starting the match with nerveskitter in hand.

[Eldariel]

To this end, no. However, casting stat would allow using Absurd Jaunt[sic] more times per day and it's way too good not to use. Also, Int caster would allow using AOE spells and I needn't mention how much more powerful it is to hit two enemies at once compared to trying to slog it through.

Honestly, I'd probably just go Wizard Conjurer with Absurd Jaunt, some summoning (SMIII is great, Dretches readying an action to cast Stinking Cloud are just brutal; even if they make their save they are sightblocked), Uncanny Forethought (17 Int needed) and touch attacks as plan B vs. Save-stacking dorks who don't realise you attack their WEAK points, not their strong ones, and that literally nobody gives a rat's ass about turtles. Then Greenbound Summoning Druid as the beatstick, some Golden Desert Honey and enjoy the fireworks.

[ryu]

To this end, no. However, casting stat would allow using Absurd Jaunt[sic] more times per day and it's way too good not to use. Also, Int caster would allow using AOE spells and I needn't mention how much more powerful it is to hit two enemies at once compared to trying to slog it through.

Honestly, I'd probably just go Wizard Conjurer with Absurd Jaunt, some summoning (SMIII is great, Dretches readying an action to cast Stinking Cloud are just brutal; even if they make their save they are sightblocked), Uncanny Forethought (17 Int needed) and touch attacks as plan B vs. Save-stacking dorks who don't realise you attack their WEAK points, not their strong ones, and that literally nobody gives a rat's ass about turtles. Then Greenbound Summoning Druid as the beatstick, some Golden Desert Honey and enjoy the fireworks.

This is a fairly ideal high optimization plan. I was kinda assuming some level of banlist or whichever side pulls more encounter ending tricks wins. If playing hardball it IS entirely possible for one spell to literally end things. Depending on the saves of your enemies and how close together they are this can easily hit something like 80% or more chance of just noping things.

[Buufreak]

Yea, that's my B. Details often fail me. The ban list included non core, non races of X races, and anything campaign setting specific or UA is explicitly out for anything build wise like class or feats. The summon dretch idea still holds water, though.

[Eldariel]

Druids are also really good still: far as I see, Fleshraker is on the table and two Rakers plus full Druid casting (Blinding Spittle, Entangle, etc.) is just absurd.

That said, lacking Greenbound Summoning might make it optimal to just go two Wizards; Abrupt Jaunt, Nerveskitter, Uncanny Forethought, Wizard-spells (many of the save-allowing ones can even be brutal on successful saves, like Stinking Cloud, Wall of Smoke, Grease, Web, etc. almost all of which can be Sculpted to ensure hitting two) and company. Druid and Cleric offer interesting options and indeed, I might be tempted to dip Cleric (since Cloistered is banned) for two domains (including Luck, free action rerolls are big) and raw stats. And carry a nonproficient Spiked Chain on the offchance that I roll well on an AoO trip; worst case scenario, you drop it.

Even a Wizard Warrior could be interesting using Alter Self, Knowledge Devotion, raw stats and perhaps something like Tiefling for Dwarven Ancestor form or such. With Abrupt Jaunt you'd be fairly golden. Probably less optimal though.

For combat, Sand Shaper dip for Summon Desert Ally is kinda cool; Servals at +6/+6/+1 to hit for decent damage is nice and you can get 4 out of SDA3. Alternatively one Dire Badger at +8/+8/+3 or Ashworm at +11 but going 4 Servals is probably your best bet; SMIII has Ape and Bison that are probably better than the SDA3 options particularly with the Smite ability. The sheer number of attacks from Servals plus easy flanking bonuses and any trips or whatever else you want are nice though. Still, SM3 is very competitive already thanks to the Outsiders. Probably not worth it to invest a level and a feat into a warrior summon.

SMIII also has BoED Coure Eladrin for Magic Missiles and Faerie Fire, Musteval Guardinal for Invisibility and Magic Missile (both fire 2 Missiles per casting which is reliable 2d4+2 per turn per summon while bodyblocking), and Fiend Folio Bacche for Hideous Laughter/Emotion (technically updated). SMII has Kaorti (Fiend Folio) with Ray of Enfeeblement and Color Spray, 1d3 of which can be nice. Empower for on average 1 more. They can even UMD if you buy some L1 Wands to spam.

So yeah, Golden Desert Honey summoning Focused Conjurers or Elf Generalists are probably a good way to go. Go Invisible if you feel so inclined (start with Musteval) and begin littering the board with things. Arcane Sight is a fairly reliable means of seeing enemies even in fogs and smoke (as long as they have any magic items and buffs on them).

Oh, and don't be afraid of just casting True Strike and Shivering Touching someone's face if they are hard to hit (Lesser Rod of Empower for bonus points) Spectral Handed if desired. That's a fairly reliable means of knocking someone out as a single target FU. There's always Power Word: Pain too.

While nothing wrong with Druids or Clerics (or even Sorcs with Wings of Cover), Wizards have great Initiative (huge in a setup like this) and provide their own Nerveskitter. Summoning seems like the path that leads to the most likely victory with least risk of anything unexpected tripping you. It allows you to stall it out generating underlings to trade actions with the enemy while you keep builsing your board. Finger on the Dispel Magic trigger.

[Efrate]

By banning non core do you mean all non core or what? Core being just mm1, dmg, and phb hurts a lot. Druid is still great, though you lose on a bunch of tricks. Mounted barbarian with a lance can be very very good. A charge should kill or nearly kill most anyone, just have a war trained mount. Fighter might be slightly better because feats, or some kind of fighter barb multiclass.

Get flight and a ranged weapon, you can invalidate a lot of issues with flight. Druid would be ok here as well. I think giant eagle and owl are in the second tier of companions.

[Eldariel]

By banning non core do you mean all non core or what? Core being just mm1, dmg, and phb hurts a lot. Druid is still great, though you lose on a bunch of tricks. Mounted barbarian with a lance can be very very good. A charge should kill or nearly kill most anyone, just have a war trained mount. Fighter might be slightly better because feats, or some kind of fighter barb multiclass.

Get flight and a ranged weapon, you can invalidate a lot of issues with flight. Druid would be ok here as well. I think giant eagle and owl are in the second tier of companions.

Non core is a modifier for races in this case. So races only from Core or Races of-books.

[Quertus]

So, wait, could you go Tainted Sorcerer, and have an awesome casting stat for the low, low price of a virtually non-existent Wisdom score?