Shield Arcane Spell Failure

[cartejos]

Looking for an easy way to cast without ASF and while using a Heavy Shield and Longsword (Or Similar).

Somatic Weaponry takes care of the "Needing a hand free" clause of somatic components, and I believe one does not need a free hand to use what is in ones component pouch.

Now the issue lies in the 15% ASF inherent from the Heavy Shield, Mithral takes care of 10% but I can't seem to find another material to reduce by a further 5%.

Would Duskblade 1 (Light Shield casting) and Battlecaster be able to use Heavy Shields? Heavy Shields are listed on the armor table; and, as has been pointed out many times, the table it's presented on is "oh so important" (kinda sarcastic, kinda not). The feat says you can ignore ASF from armor one weight category above your the armor weight category you can already ignore ASF from, as Shields have no weight category I'm inclined to say it doesn't work, however the titles 'Heavy' and 'Light' coupled with the different ASF quantities also seem like it may be viable.

[Nifft]

"Heavy" and "Light" do seem like weight categories. That might even be the correct intent of the feat.

Other ways:
- One level of the Spellsword PrC lets you ignore up to 10% ACF, so that plus Mithral and you're good to go.
- The Animated special quality allows you to be hands-free for a few rounds each combat.

[Telonius]

Feycraft or Githcraft (both from DMG2) reduce ASF on any shield or armor by 5%. So a Feycraft (or Githcraft) Mithral Heavy Shield would have ASF of 0%. (Personally I'd go with Githcraft, since it also gives a minor boost to Concentration checks - something a caster would care about).

EDIT: Just doublechecked - Feycraft can only be added to wooden shields anyway, so it would have to be a Mithral Githcraft Heavy Shield.

[Falontani]

assuming your just trying to be an arcane spellcaster with armor/shield, there is a prestige class in races of stone that strips the need of somatic components for all arcane spells, and there is the Death Master from Dragon Compendium (basically a necromancy specialist wizard) that can use blood as a spell component in place of somatic components (both remove the spell failure from all equipment)

[zlefin]

The twilight effect from MiC can help with that. (+1 mod equivalent)
it lets you get another -10%

[Telonius]

The twilight effect from MiC can help with that. (+1 mod equivalent)
it lets you get another -10%

Unfortunately Twilight is Armor only, not Shield.

[cartejos]

Githcraft or Spellsword I'll definitely look into, likely leaning more towards the Githcraft, as to respond of intentions toward a build, it's a Gish-type that I'd like to be as much of a Battlefield Controller with their melee abilities as with their spells, leaning for a Elven Sorcerer type, so I'll need to look into if the Gith and the Elves don't have bad blood, cause something in my mind says "If it does nearly the same thing, but has apposing prefixes, they hate each other"

[daremetoidareyo]

Is there any reason you aren't using the shield spell or the shield-bearer spell?

[DrMotives]

Unfortunately Twilight is Armor only, not Shield.

Just looked at the caster armor enhancement from masterforged masterworks, and the same restrictions. That only applies to armors, not shields.

[cartejos]

Is there any reason you aren't using the shield spell or the shield-bearer spell?

Another part of the build is the Dragon Magazine Shield Bearer alternate that has a special ability allowing you to use your shield in place of an unarmed strike, which I think can be made a dubious enhancement to the Melee portion of Battlefield control

And it's for a solo campaign, so spell slots are kinda spread thin, and I'm unsure if it'd be worth

[Nifft]

I'll need to look into if the Gith and the Elves don't have bad blood, cause something in my mind says "If it does nearly the same thing, but has apposing prefixes, they hate each other"

IIRC the Githyankis have bad blood with basically everyone, except a few red dragons.

They're not nearly as well-liked as the Githmets, nor as universally hated as the Githredsox.

[cartejos]

IIRC the Githyankis have bad blood with basically everyone, except a few red dragons.

They're not nearly as well-liked as the Githmets, nor as universally hated as the Githredsox.

Shame on you for that, but also, good one haha
Any specific books I should look at for their most generalized lore?

[Troacctid]

You could always just stick to spells with no somatic components! Then you don't have to worry about any spell failure!

If you prepare spells, Alternative Source Spell can allow you to cast all your spells as divine, which also ignores arcane spell failure.


Shame on you for that, but also, good one haha
Any specific books I should look at for their most generalized lore?
It's 5e, but Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes has a whole chapter dedicated to gith and their lore.

[cartejos]

I wasn't aware of Somatic Components being the only way ASF applied.

Would it be worthwhile for a 1 level dip into Metamagic Spellshaper be worth it for always-on still spell? (unaware of how to make thinking face emoji on here)

[Allanimal]

I wasn't aware of Somatic Components being the only way ASF applied.

Would it be worthwhile for a 1 level dip into Metamagic Spellshaper be worth it for always-on still spell? (unaware of how to make thinking face emoji on here)

A one-level dip into Runesmith would also do it, though you would have to be a dwarf.

[Crake]

Looking for an easy way to cast without ASF and while using a Heavy Shield and Longsword (Or Similar).

Somatic Weaponry takes care of the "Needing a hand free" clause of somatic components, and I believe one does not need a free hand to use what is in ones component pouch.

Now the issue lies in the 15% ASF inherent from the Heavy Shield, Mithral takes care of 10% but I can't seem to find another material to reduce by a further 5%.

Would Duskblade 1 (Light Shield casting) and Battlecaster be able to use Heavy Shields? Heavy Shields are listed on the armor table; and, as has been pointed out many times, the table it's presented on is "oh so important" (kinda sarcastic, kinda not). The feat says you can ignore ASF from armor one weight category above your the armor weight category you can already ignore ASF from, as Shields have no weight category I'm inclined to say it doesn't work, however the titles 'Heavy' and 'Light' coupled with the different ASF quantities also seem like it may be viable.

You do indeed need a free hand to use material components, as you need to draw them and prepare them before casting. Now, drawing and preparing material compoents from the spell component pouch is a free action, so it doesn't normally come into play, but if you're using somatic weaponry with a shield in your offhand, you're not gonna have a hand free to prepare the components, so you may want to look into eschew materials.

On the other hand, using a buckler in your offhand instead of a heavy shield, you'd have your hand free to both draw and prepare the components, and to perform the somatic components you need, saving you two feats, somatic weaponry and eschew materials. For that, you could get something like improved natural armor, which would make up the 1 AC you'd lose from using a buckler instead of a heavy shield, while still having a feat hanging about spare, and not having to worry about extra costs to cover the last 5% spell failure.

[Sian]

Isn’t there a spell gauntlet in some book (not sure at all about the name) which is basically a shield that is grafted onto a gauntlet ao your hand is free to use for magic?

[Darrin]

Isn’t there a spell gauntlet in some book (not sure at all about the name) which is basically a shield that is grafted onto a gauntlet ao your hand is free to use for magic?

Yes, the Gauntlet Shield (Races of Stone p. 158) allows you to manipulate spell components or make somatic gestures. However, it requires Exotic Shield Proficiency and has a whopping 35% ASF. Description says it's primarily for divine casters.

[cartejos]

A one-level dip into Runesmith would also do it, though you would have to be a dwarf.

Gotta be an elf


You do indeed need a free hand to use material components, as you need to draw them and prepare them before casting. Now, drawing and preparing material compoents from the spell component pouch is a free action, so it doesn't normally come into play, but if you're using somatic weaponry with a shield in your offhand, you're not gonna have a hand free to prepare the components, so you may want to look into eschew materials.

On the other hand, using a buckler in your offhand instead of a heavy shield, you'd have your hand free to both draw and prepare the components, and to perform the somatic components you need, saving you two feats, somatic weaponry and eschew materials. For that, you could get something like improved natural armor, which would make up the 1 AC you'd lose from using a buckler instead of a heavy shield, while still having a feat hanging about spare, and not having to worry about extra costs to cover the last 5% spell failure.

Would a Light Shield work with somatic components? I can already ignore its ASF with a 1 or 2 level dip into Duskblade. The Light Shield allows you to use your off hand to hold items, and therefore I assume you could trace somatic components with the hand.

And also, how is the Duskblade intended to cast spells? It has full BAB, and a not-so-squishy hit die (d8, not so tanky either) so a melee weapon is likely to be in one hand, and it gets Heavy Shield casting without ASF, so what gives? Is the class meant to drop what it's holding any time it's gonna cast a spell? Is it meant to not cast spells unless in desperate need? If that's true why does it get so many spell slots? Duskblade seems really really bad if you need a free hand

[Telonius]

Huh, did not ever notice that particular thing. I think they're assuming that Duskblades are mostly going to be casting their spells through Arcane Channeling, but this might be a case for the Rules Dysfunction thread. Personally I'd read the Armored Mage feature as over-riding the need for a free hand, but it doesn't explicitly spell it out.

[Darrin]

And also, how is the Duskblade intended to cast spells? It has full BAB, and a not-so-squishy hit die (d8, not so tanky either) so a melee weapon is likely to be in one hand, and it gets Heavy Shield casting without ASF, so what gives? Is the class meant to drop what it's holding any time it's gonna cast a spell? Is it meant to not cast spells unless in desperate need? If that's true why does it get so many spell slots? Duskblade seems really really bad if you need a free hand

Presumably, the Duskblade has loaded him/herself up with touch spells, and is using Arcane Channeling once he's in melee. However, my understanding is most Duskblades are using a two-handed weapon rather that sword-and-board, and thus can remove a hand or regrip as a free action. In Core, Still Spell would be a full-round action. Somatic Weaponry is in Complete Mage... printed 6 months after PHBII, but possibly could have been in the pipeline when PHBII was in development. A Duskblade could also conceivably grip his heavy shield two-handed and shield bash his enemies with it as his primary weapon.

I was going to mention the difference in perspective with how most WotC designers tend to view "typical player choices" with regards to class abilities, feats, spell selection, etc., but I'm not sure it would be all that productive outside of what has already been discussed at significant length in these forums.

[Crake]

Would a Light Shield work with somatic components? I can already ignore its ASF with a 1 or 2 level dip into Duskblade. The Light Shield allows you to use your off hand to hold items, and therefore I assume you could trace somatic components with the hand.

No, a light shield still requires actually using your hand, but it otherwise has the same stats as a buckler, so there's really no reason to use a light shield over a buckler, like, ever.


And also, how is the Duskblade intended to cast spells? It has full BAB, and a not-so-squishy hit die (d8, not so tanky either) so a melee weapon is likely to be in one hand, and it gets Heavy Shield casting without ASF, so what gives? Is the class meant to drop what it's holding any time it's gonna cast a spell? Is it meant to not cast spells unless in desperate need? If that's true why does it get so many spell slots? Duskblade seems really really bad if you need a free hand

If you look at the duskblade spell list, spells like swift fly and swift expeditious retreat, the non-arcane channeling spells that were added on the duskblade list, are verbal only, allowing the duskblade to use it with it's two full hands. Arcane channeling obviates the need for somatic, but if you want to do something like cast a pre-combat buff, well, then I imagine the intended mechanic is: put your sword away, cast the buff, draw your sword again.

Either that, or use a buckler, as I mentioned before.

[Darrin]

No, a light shield still requires actually using your hand, but it otherwise has the same stats as a buckler, so there's really no reason to use a light shield over a buckler, like, ever.


That's not clear. According to the PHB: "A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. You can hold a torch/lantern in that hand, which presumably also means you can manipulate objects such as spell components, and if you can do that, then why wouldn't you also be able to make somatic gestures as well?

I suspect that the designers intended to make a distinction somewhere between "holding a torch" and "complicated somatic hand gestures", but ruleswise they didn't really get around to making a distinction.



Either that, or use a buckler, as I mentioned before.

Using a buckler incurs a -1 attack penalty, regardless of whether or not you're using the buckler for defense that round. The Dwarven Buckler-Axe doesn't explicitly incur the same penalty, although it's not clear if this was intended or an oversight.

[Nifft]

That's not clear. According to the PHB: "A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. You can hold a torch/lantern in that hand, which presumably also means you can manipulate objects such as spell components, and if you can do that, then why wouldn't you also be able to make somatic gestures as well?

I suspect that the designers intended to make a distinction somewhere between "holding a torch" and "complicated somatic hand gestures", but ruleswise they didn't really get around to making a distinction.

My impression is that somatic components require full-body movements, which is why you see wizards wearing dresses robes instead of just leaving the gloves off their full-plate.

[Khedrac]

Using a buckler incurs a -1 attack penalty, regardless of whether or not you're using the buckler for defense that round. The Dwarven Buckler-Axe doesn't explicitly incur the same penalty, although it's not clear if this was intended or an oversight.
The buckler's -1 attack penalty only applies to attacks made with the buckler's hand (so two-handed weapons or two weapon fighting) - something you cannot do with a light shield.

It's also dubious whether you can manipulate items with a light shield's hand:

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.For one thing, the hand is gripping the shield, and for another it only says you can carry other items with it. This isn't definitive (which is why I said 'dubious') but it is indicative.

[Zaq]

You do indeed need a free hand to use material components, as you need to draw them and prepare them before casting.

By RAW, I think this is only true when grappling. When not grappling, the PHB is remarkably silent about needing a hand to manipulate or prepare material components. If you can find a rules quote that actually says that you need a hand for material components (when not grappling), I’d love to know what page it’s on. There was a discussion about this in the Dysfunctional Rules thread a while back. You might houserule that you need a hand free even when not grappling, but I haven’t found any text that indicates that this is RAW.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you make that buckler Masterwork, there is no negative one attack penalty

[KillianHawkeye]

If you make that buckler Masterwork, there is no negative one attack penalty

Yes there is. The penalty to attack rolls is unrelated to the shield's armor check penalty.

[Crake]

By RAW, I think this is only true when grappling. When not grappling, the PHB is remarkably silent about needing a hand to manipulate or prepare material components. If you can find a rules quote that actually says that you need a hand for material components (when not grappling), I’d love to know what page it’s on. There was a discussion about this in the Dysfunctional Rules thread a while back. You might houserule that you need a hand free even when not grappling, but I haven’t found any text that indicates that this is RAW.

You don't necessarily need a hand free, especially if you have some other method to be able to draw and manipulate the components. I would honestly maybe even allow a familiar to draw and prepare the material components for you, but if you're trying to say that you can somehow just mentally prepare the components inside your pouch without manipulating them? It's quite clear that's not the case. If you had a prehensile tail, or some other appendange able to manipulate objects, that would likely be fine to use, but you need something to manipulate it.

Calling that a houserule is just frankly absurd.

[Zaq]

RAW often conflicts with common sense. (Something something Monks something unarmed strikes.) I mentioned the Dysfunctional Rules thread for a reason.

Seriously though, if you find RAW text that shows that you need to have a manipulating appendage free when not grappling, I’d love to see it. You must have the components on your person, but outside of a grapple and outside of spells that explicitly say what must be done with the components, I have not found any actual rules text that states that you need your hands anywhere near your spell component pouch.

[Telonius]

RAW often conflicts with common sense. (Something something Monks something unarmed strikes.) I mentioned the Dysfunctional Rules thread for a reason.

Seriously though, if you find RAW text that shows that you need to have a manipulating appendage free when not grappling, I’d love to see it. You must have the components on your person, but outside of a grapple and outside of spells that explicitly say what must be done with the components, I have not found any actual rules text that states that you need your hands anywhere near your spell component pouch.

The closest thing I've been able to find is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#choosingASpell):


To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any).

So you have to manipulate the components if there are any. It's a bit of a gray area just how free your hands have to be in order to do this, but manipulation implies that you're going to be handling it somehow.