Reactive/defensive sword master build

[retaliation08]

I am trying to build a character for a 3.PF game. I imagine the character being very passive and reactive. For instance, he would remain in stationary in defensive mode, unarmed, until attacked, and then he would deflect incoming blows while unarmed by using trips and throws or quickly drawing to make sword strikes.

This is a level 4 build for a character who is starting in an underground dwarven settlement. I am leaning towards races with Wis bonus and darkvision, such as dwarf or half-giant or undine.

I am looking at a combination of Myrmidon Lore Warden Fighter with Flowing, Sensei, and/or Maneuver Master Monk.

I would rather have Opportune Defense and Parry from Swashbuckler to go with my Myrmidon Grit, but I can't figure out a way to make that work without increasing MAD. I had considered Aasimar race with a Sensei/Swashbuckler to reduce MAD, but I can't find a Swashbuckler archetype that offers martial maneuvers.

My goals with this character are to optimize CMB while keeping a good AC (enhanced further by combat expertise or other defense actions) and being able to dish out some damage.

I am particularly interested in the Ki Throw feat and utilizing counters rather than initiating combat. I like the Mithral Current maneuvers.

I know I am trying to do a lot here, but I am not used to PF.

Thanks for any help.

[Andor13]

Personally, I'd be inclined to go with a Warder with the Bushi template, as that simply is the defensive, quick drawing character you describe.

Mithral Current is definitely a good match.

[Kurald Galain]

I would rather have Opportune Defense and Parry from Swashbuckler to go with my Myrmidon Grit, but I can't figure out a way to make that work without increasing MAD.

Note that the Magus can also get parry & riposte at level three, and has a couple first-level immediate action spells that counter attacks.

[Elricaltovilla]

Myrmidon Fighter is good, but a Bushi Warder is definitely better. Especially if you pursue the archetype mess that is the Ordained Defender Zweihander Sentinel Bushi Warder. The upsides:


WIS based initiating
Full BAB, High FORT and WILL Saves, D12 hit die
Unrestricted Maneuver Progression
Access to Mithral Current and the feats that make it excel are added for free
Naturally focused on counter attacks



The downside is that you'll never fit the full name of your class on the character sheet.

[retaliation08]

Note that the Magus can also get parry & riposte at level three, and has a couple first-level immediate action spells that counter attacks.

I did consider the Kensai Magus. I still haven't discounted it completely, but I am hoping for something more martial.


I'd be inclined to go with a Warder with the Bushi template

Myrmidon Fighter is good, but a Bushi Warder is definitely better.

This is definitely a strong build and along the lines that I want, but I am not seeing where CMB gets any help here. Ideally, this character would ready actions or use other interrupts to ki throw an enemy prone and to his side and use quickdraw to slash and sheathe.

I liked the Lore Warden Myrmidon for the bonus feats, skill points, and CMB bonuses. A level or 2 or monk bestowed Wis to AC, more bonus feats, and archetype options.

Are there other options for Bushi classes that focus on CMB such as disarming, repositioning, and tripping?

[Efrate]

Broken blade has a fair few maneuvers that offer some kind of trip or something, and boosts and stances which help cmb. I'd highly recommend warder with a careful selection of manuevers. Eternal guardian and iron tortoise offer a fair bit of defenses, and you can sheath your bare hands for mithril current or go glaive or spiked chain.

[Elricaltovilla]

The problem with CMB is that it scales incredibly poorly. Ki throw is also pretty terrible since it explicitly only works on opponents your size or smaller and does nothing but move the target a very small number of squares. The kids investment necessary to affect larger targets generally isn't worth it.

Instead look at the feat Seize the Opportunity, which allows you to replace an attack of opportunity with a combat maneuver. Paired with the warder's defensive focus, you can potentially trip multiple opponents every round in a much larger area than you'd be able to touch with monk.

Also, monk WIS to AC only works if you aren't wearing armor. It generally isn't worth the investment.

[Kurald Galain]

The problem with CMB is that it scales incredibly poorly. Ki throw is also pretty terrible since it explicitly only works on opponents your size or smaller and does nothing but move the target a very small number of squares.

Both of those are clearly false at the levels that the OP is talking about.

Ki Throw drops an enemy prone in the middle of your allies. That means they get to full-attack it on their turn, or OA as the enemy stands up; and in both cases at a substantial bonus. It's an excellent feat for a melee controller.

[Elricaltovilla]

Both of those are clearly false at the levels that the OP is talking about.

Ki Throw drops an enemy prone in the middle of your allies. That means they get to full-attack it on their turn, or OA as the enemy stands up; and in both cases at a substantial bonus. It's an excellent feat for a melee controller.

Only if your allies are already in your melee reach, in which case they are probably close enough to 5 ft. Step over and full attack. If they aren't, then there's probably other stuff they can do.

And at level 4 (the level in question) there is no difference between a full attack and a standard attack, so full attacks being a boon doesn't even apply for at least 2 more levels.

It's not a n excellent feat. It's a completely average feat that is done better by several different maneuvers or feats available in PoW and PoW:E.

[Geddy2112]

An option for a less MAD swashbuckler, or less charisma based is inspired blade, which uses INT in addition to CHA for panache.

[retaliation08]

for Zweihander Sentinel I have to give up Broken Blade (which is one of the main disciplines I want) for Scarlet Throne (which is something I don't care for). Is there a way around this? I know of the martial training feat, which is a short term fix, but in the long run its not much of a fix.

Right now, I am looking at either a dex based Undine Bushi Warder (which would use Daisho Expertise, Deadly Agility, and Agile Maneuvers) or a STR based Half-Orc Bushi Warder (which could focus feats on Combat maneuvers like trip and disarm.)

[Kurald Galain]

Only if your allies are already in your melee reach,
Ki Throw goes great with any reach-increasing or enlarging effect.


And at level 4 (the level in question) there is no difference between a full attack and a standard attack
Magus and Monk say hello. So does any natural attack build or animal companion.

[Elricaltovilla]

Ki Throw goes great with any reach-increasing or enlarging effect.


No it doesn't because it requires you to use unarmed strikes, which limits you to a 10 ft. Radius, whereas being a Warder with a reach weapon will give you a larger area of influence for less investment.


Magus and Monk say hello. So does any natural attack build or animal companion.

So does Pride Movement (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/golden-lion-maneuvers/pride-movement), Tactical Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/golden-lion-maneuvers/tactical-strike),
Call to Action (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/golden-lion-maneuvers/call-to-action) and Pyrite Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/golden-lion-maneuvers/pyrite-strike). All of which are available from one discipline with significantly less investment required.

Point being, when PoW is on the table, there are much better ways to enable melee leaders/control than Ki Throw.

[Ignimortis]

for Zweihander Sentinel I have to give up Broken Blade (which is one of the main disciplines I want) for Scarlet Throne (which is something I don't care for). Is there a way around this? I know of the martial training feat, which is a short term fix, but in the long run its not much of a fix.

Right now, I am looking at either a dex based Undine Bushi Warder (which would use Daisho Expertise, Deadly Agility, and Agile Maneuvers) or a STR based Half-Orc Bushi Warder (which could focus feats on Combat maneuvers like trip and disarm.)

Unorthodox Method trait can give you Broken Blade back.