10 level Aura/support front line character build

[CMagnum]

My group will be starting a new campaign in a few weeks and I wanted some suggestions for a melee build.

The party will be myself, a knight (low optimization player), a fighter (no optimization), a cleric (low opt.), a beguiler (mid op) and an illusion mage. With so many people in the front lines, I had the idea of playing a support fighter. This led me to the idea of a marshal/dragon shaman type who has many auras up helping my fellow front liners. I like the idea of having multiple auras at the same time, and if i can do it effectively I would like to try such a build.

I have read the marshal handbook and while I like many of the ideas in there, the suggested builds are made for a level 20 game. We will be going to level eight guaranteed and possibly ten, depending on how things go. The DM has said that the beginning of the campaign will be more dungeon crawley until level 3 or 4 before the world opens up. With this in mind I liked the idea of Dragon Shaman for level 1 since Vigor Aura can help with sustaining a lot. I know there are Draconic Aura feats, but they do not allow you to get Vigor. DM will not hand waive Vigor on the list of auras from the feat so there is no wiggle room around that. I am a little worried though that if i take Dragon Shaman 1 then Marshal 1 for level 2 I will be sitting at a +0 bab at level 2.

A few ideas I have toyed with are:
Marshal4/Bard2/crusader4
Dragon Shaman4/Marshal4/X2


Do you think that the aura is even the way to go? If so, how would you go about getting the most out of it? If you have any other ideas for a different type of support melee fighter I would also be glad to hear them. I have played a barb2 wolf totem spiked chain trip crusader recently and really stole the spotlight in a lot of fights so I am looking to be more supportive of my other party members; but I do want to be able to kick some monster @$$ when I need to.

Thanks for your ideas
CMagnum

[Nifft]

I've never found auras to be particularly strong.

IMHO the Draconic Aura feat is about as much investment as you should put in, unless you're doing something funky like maxing out Diplomacy, and doubling your Charisma bonus would help you in a disproportionate way.


Bard / Crusader is a very solid combo, but I feel like it's better without any Marshal -- you want to stack levels for Inspire Courage, and you want access to better Stances (which are like auras but usually better) and better Maneuvers.


You could always be a Silverbrow Human Bard/Crusader and take the Draconic Aura feat. That's two auras (stance + feat).

[Elrak]

In our current game we have a Dragon Shaman who has saved our butts a couple of times with his vigor aura even during the midst of battle getting a fallen comrade back on his feet whilst still occupying the enemy in close quarters. Also the senses aura giving everyone a bonus to initiative can be very helpful if you need to take out an enemy quickly.

In short, I can vouch for the fact that at least at low-mid levels (we have been playing now up to level 8th) a pure DS can be a reliable support and frontliner(tank).

You already read through the marshal handbook but i would also suggest to check out the Dragon Shaman Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214007-3-5-Dragon-Shaman-Handbook) on this forums if for nothing else then just to give you an idea of how you could play one. This being said, I do think that the DS will lose more and more relevance the higher you get in levels.

As an alternative you could build a Silver Brow Human Warblade or Crusader/Bard and take the feats Dragon fire inspiration & song of the white raven focusing mostly on white raven maneuvers (Especially White raven tactics) to help out the whole team whilst still being able to dish out some hurt yourself.

Also if you still want auras, the draconic aura feat at some point for the sense aura could be interesting. (If memory serves draconic aura also benefits of silverbrow human)

[Anthrowhale]

If you are an Unseelie Fey [Summer Caress] Human Fighter 8 taking:
1. Combat Expertise
Fighter 1: Allied Defense
... and then using other feats/options for trip attacking.

Summer Caress = magic circle vs. everything that matters, Allied Defense grants up to BAB to AC of all adjacent allies (and yourself). And you have a knock-them-prone debuff "aura" when that's useful.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about bard 4/crusader 6 with Song of the White Raven and a vest of legends? You have just about enough of a Will save for Words of Creation, so you get +6 Inspire Courage, too (+8 with Song of the Heart).

[Arkain]

Aura and frontlining? You are obviously looking for the divine mind class.

[CMagnum]

Thanks for the input and ideas.
After reading the handbook, I am pretty sure I will be staying away from the dragon shaman now. Not very powerful but it can potentially be useful at the early levels, just seems underwhelming to me.

Divine mind looks great and would be a simple and effective build from the looks of things. Thanks for the suggestion on that one, it's looking like my favorite at the moment.

If I were to do the bard /crusader build what progression would you suggest? Is there a strategic benefit to a specific level progression or should I just do whatever I feel like? Maybe start crusader for the d12 hd or would the skill points of bard1 be more useful?

Thanks for all of your suggestions thus far, they are all very much appreciated.

[Goaty14]

Divine mind looks great and would be a simple and effective build from the looks of things. Thanks for the suggestion on that one, it's looking like my favorite at the moment.

The blue text implies sarcasm -- Divine Mind is actually a really bad class.

[Nifft]

Divine mind looks great and would be a simple and effective build from the looks of things. Thanks for the suggestion on that one, it's looking like my favorite at the moment. He was being sarcastic -- Divine Mind is not a good class. It's not good at all.


If I were to do the bard /crusader build what progression would you suggest? Is there a strategic benefit to a specific level progression or should I just do whatever I feel like? Maybe start crusader for the d12 hd or would the skill points of bard1 be more useful? Bard 4 / Crusader 6 seems like a decent compromise.

Bard 4 gets you access to a couple of level 2 Bard spells, which might be one combat buff like alter self or elation and one social utility like suggestion or detect thoughts. You'll also have 2+bonus level 1 spells per day, which is probably 3, which is enough uses of inspirational boost to matter.

On the Crusader side, you're level 6 which means you have access to level 3 maneuvers, which means you have White Raven Tactics.

Crusaders get d10, not d12, and to me the +8 skill points from Bard-first is worth more than the +2 hit points you'd get from Crusader-first, but either way is perfectly fine.

[Elrak]

What Nifft said.
The only thing I would point out just in case you are not yet aware of is that initiator levels also increase with non initiator classes albeit at a reduced rate of 0.5/level. This means as a rule of thumb, that you benefit most by keeping the non-initiator classes even and taking initiator classes level later in the build to have access to higher level maneuvers.

[CMagnum]

Oh, I was not aware of the blue text lol thanks.
I believe I was confusing warblade for crusader hd when I said d12, I think the skill points are more worth now for sure.
I had read about putting off the crusader class until after the 0.5 IL classes, but thanks for the reminder :)
Alrighty, time to go roll stats and get this (crusaard or barsader?) character planned out.
THanks again for the help all

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bardsaders are typically 4/16, of either type.

Bard 4 means you get four uses of bardic music a day (one per encounter, typically), you lose only one point of base attack bonus, and you get an initiator level of 17 at crusader level 15, which is enough to pick up a 9th-level maneuver (and an 8th-level stance, two levels before that). It's basically an initiator with Inspire Courage on top.

Crusader 4 means you get your fourth iterative attack, a small number of mid-level maneuvers, the front-loaded crusader benefits, and 6th-level bard spells. You can have full caster level with Practiced Spellcaster. To get the most out of your maneuvers, you typically stagger your progression, like so: bard 4/crusader 1/(bard +2/crusader +1) (brackets indicate repeating). That way, you get IL 3 at your first level of crusader (gain second-level maneuvers), IL 5 at your second level (new third-level stance), IL 7 at your third level (new fourth-level maneuver), and IL 9 at your fourth level (new fifth-level maneuver, and replace an old maneuver). You can throw more increments of bard 4 in there to get higher-levelled maneuvers, but, of course, melee shines at low levels.

Bard 8 is not a bad idea either, especially if you need an extra feat to pick up Song of the Heart, but you lose your 9th-level maneuver, which may be bad.

[rrwoods]

I'll take the chance to plug Piggy Knowles' Buffsader: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559259-Optimzation-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Buffsader

It's quite a unique take on the frontline support character, and it's designed to contribute at all levels. Even if you don't use the whole thing, there are quite a few cool nuggets in there!

EDIT: I think you mean Bard 16 and Crusader 16, poster above me :)

[Nifft]

Oh, I was not aware of the blue text lol thanks. It's a forum-specific thing. Just how we do things here, since tone is difficult to transmit over text.


I believe I was confusing warblade for crusader hd when I said d12, I think the skill points are more worth now for sure.
I had read about putting off the crusader class until after the 0.5 IL classes, but thanks for the reminder :)
Alrighty, time to go roll stats and get this (crusaard or barsader?) character planned out.
THanks again for the help all

One thing to ask your DM about is: if you take Bard 4 before Crusader 1, can you pick level 2 Maneuvers? If so, that's convenient. If not, that's not too horrible.

Feats you might want:
- Song of the White Raven (Tome of Battle)
- Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic)
- Able Learner (Races of Destiny) - this allows you to keep putting points in Bard-only skills like Use Magic Device and Bluff.

Other good feats:
- Extra Music (SRD / PHB)
- Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)
- Music of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds, requires Int 15 and Cha 15)

[ExLibrisMortis]

EDIT: I think you mean Bard 16 and Crusader 16, poster above me :)
That's the other part of the second and first build, respectively. Read carefully :smallwink:.