PDA

View Full Version : Stacking Spell Effects



Sornjss Lichdom
2007-09-07, 09:55 PM
Just read a nice spell battle between a dark elf and a devil with a spell combo that I found intristing.

Drow used the following spells:

Dimisional Anchor
Delayed Fireball
Reseilent Sphere

Of course the Fireball went off all around the devil, who was locked in a small unimpenetrable sphere. Crispy right, now what I want to know is what would this do exactly. Would it take away the Reflex Save or lower fire resistance. Looking for some advice thanks.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 10:04 PM
The only effect that combination has is to reduce the area of effect of the fireball (and, of course, trap the demon for sometime afterwards). The demon still gets a reflex save. (If a spell offers a save, you can always choose to take it. See the FAQ.) And there's no reason whatsoever for the devil's fire resistance to change.

And note that when a area of effect, such as a delayed blasst fireball, reaches a barrier it cannot overcome, the area simply stops at the barrier. It does not "bounce back" or do anything similar that would cause extra damage.

[hr]EDIT: Ah, here. I'll save you the trouble. Check the spoiler for the FAQ entry:
Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move?

A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate.

In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere with Reflex saves:
If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves.
If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly.
If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws.
If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws.
If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.

Zincorium
2007-09-07, 10:23 PM
If you want explosions to rebound upon their origins when they meet a barrier, check out shadowrun's "Chunky Salsa Effect" rules (Yes, that's the actual name).

Oh, and the mage? He's a moron. Devils are immune to fire (all of them).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 10:31 PM
Oh, and the mage? He's a moron. Devils are immune to fire (all of them).
Not all. Most. "Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)." And, hey, are two core Devils that have resistance to fire rather than immunity. The Hellcat (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#hellcat-devil) and Imp (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#imp-devil).

Now, every Devil that is immune to fire has the fire immunity specifically called out in their entry. Except, perhaps the kyton (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#chain-devil). Nor does it have fire resistance to directly contradict the usual fire immunity. So does lack of explicit reminder of fire immunity count as the fire immunity being "otherwise noted"?

Citizen Joe
2007-09-07, 10:44 PM
3.5 got reduced to burst or spread effects. So a fireball goes out 20' radius, wrapping around corners but not exceeding that radius. So you don't get to fill a hundred foot corridor with fire. Burst spells radiate out from a single point, if you are behind something, then you are 'protected'... i.e. the spell needs line of sight to catch you.

Lightning bolts used to bounce back, but no more. If they hit a wall, they either destroy it and continue through, or they are stopped at the wall.

The point of the delayed blast fireball is to get it into position before locking the devil inside. Devils are however immune to the fire as others have already stated. Note also that the sphere is 1 foot diameter per level, so it is conceivable that the devil may be too big to fit.

Zincorium
2007-09-07, 10:45 PM
Not all. Most. "Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)." And, hey, are two core Devils that have resistance to fire rather than immunity. The Hellcat (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#hellcat-devil) and Imp (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#imp-devil).

Now, every Devil that is immune to fire has the fire immunity specifically called out in their entry. Except, perhaps the kyton (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#chain-devil). Nor does it have fire resistance to directly contradict the usual fire immunity. So does lack of explicit reminder of fire immunity count as the fire immunity being "otherwise noted"?

I wouldn't think so. And I'll be honest, I didn't check hellcats and imps. What I was looking at is pg. 50 of the MM. Kytons lack mention of any of the abilities listed on that page.

Imprisoning, dimensional anchoring, and delayed-blast-fireballing either imps (CR 2) or Hellcasts (CR 7) doesn't seem too intelligent.

So I'll humbly amend my statement to "Devils that could reasonably pose a threat to a wizard capable of casting those spells are all immune to fire."

Chronos
2007-09-08, 01:54 PM
The other problem with this is that Dimensional Anchor only stops planar travel. It doesn't do anything at all about just walking around. So the monster (I'll assume here it's not a devil or something else fire-immune, since that doesn't seem critical to the combo) could just move away from the delayed-blast fireball bead before you cast the Resilient Sphere.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-09-08, 05:21 PM
Im pretty certain that one spell was quickened and that they floating didnt help.

And If you want the exact battle it was phaerun and ithracus (or somthing like that) last book of WotSQ in the demonweb pits.

Hm, just seems like a fire ball taht had a 20 foot spread, locked in a 7 by 7 area would do somthing different.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-08, 05:33 PM
Hm, just seems like a fire ball taht had a 20 foot spread, locked in a 7 by 7 area would do somthing different.
No. Barriers just stop an area of effect.

Remember, a fireball isn't a true explosion. It's just a rapidly expanding wall of flame. It doesn't create any pressure and immediately dissipates upon reaching a barrier it cannot destroy. Yeah, that's physically unsound. But, hey, it's magic fire.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-09-08, 05:49 PM
true, oh well Maybe you can delay water summoning spell, fill it to the top and drowned the poor sucker stuck in the sphere. dont think it would work though, just seems like you aught to be able to trap somthing nasty in that sphere with the devil.

PaladinBoy
2007-09-08, 06:00 PM
Just a slight but important nitpick - that was an ultroloth, a type of yugoloth, not a devil. According to the book which this fight was in, he did have fire resistance, but it was overwhelmed by the enhanced effects of the fireball in a confined space.

However, despite the common sense interpretation that states that a blast of fire would rebound repeatedly off of the wall, the D+D rules make no allowance for this. On top of that, there is the bit that Shhalahr states about the fireball not being a true explosion, which actually would invalidate the common sense interpretation as well.

So, as others have said, this would have no special effect besides limiting the fireball's area of effect.

Douglas
2007-09-08, 07:14 PM
I haven't read that series, but I suspect the writers were working with 2nd edition rules, where Fireball had a fixed volume and would expand as far as necessary to fill that volume in whatever shaped space was available. I remember very little of the details of 2e, but it is entirely possible that there was a special clause for extra damage with fireballs in completely enclosed spaces smaller than the fireball's normal volume.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-08, 07:29 PM
Yes, there is a distinct difference between an explosion and a fireball. Explosions do force damage with minimal fire effect. The concussive force would move into the softest area until the pressure equalized. In the case of a creature in a force bubble, it would expand until it his the force bubble and then compress the creature inside. That is the chunky salsa effect.

Fireball is not a force effect, thus no chunky salsa. However, if the area was filled with methane or similar explosive gas, then the fireball could have touched that off within the sphere to create some effect, although I don't think it would explode so much as implode. The best explosives snap from a solid to a gas with a massive increase in pressure.

Anyway, a more effective trick may have been a blade barrier within a resilient sphere. That's more of a rat in a blender than chunky salsa.

EDIT: Hmm... how much would a single use item that activates blade barrier and resilient sphere cost?
Let's see... lvl 6 spell (CL 11) + lvl 4 spell (CL 7) (similar effect force, reflex save)...
that's
((6x11) + (4x7)x3/4)x50 gp x 2 (no body slot) = 8700 gp for a 'Bead of Blending'

Ranged touch attack. Reflex save vs. DC 20 to jump clear. Failed save results in a medium sized creature being encapsulated in a resilient sphere whil a blade barrier activates within. For the next 7 minutes (70 rounds) the victim takes 11d6 force damage from the blades, no further saves. Note that this doesn't stop if the victim dies.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-09-08, 08:09 PM
ouch.. thats sick and twisted... and I like it.

could you summon somthign like a black blade of diesaster and let it loose inside the sphere, it would have to be a powerful opponent because it would completely use up that powerful of a spells deration, unless you can drop the sphere some how.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-08, 08:33 PM
I suppose it could be made into a trap as well. But I prefer this trap...

Concealed pit trap drops you into a deep pit. After 5' feet you breathe a sigh of relief when you realize a feather fall was immediately cast as part of the trap. Then you notice the whirling blades extending as far as you can see down.

Kaelik
2007-09-08, 08:43 PM
ouch.. thats sick and twisted... and I like it.

could you summon somthign like a black blade of diesaster and let it loose inside the sphere, it would have to be a powerful opponent because it would completely use up that powerful of a spells deration, unless you can drop the sphere some how.

Black Blade of Disaster is not a spell with a placement. You have to have line of effect to the creature. So no, that would be a really bad idea.

And you can dismiss the sphere as a standard action. Like almost any spell you cast.

Irreverent Fool
2007-09-09, 07:31 AM
And you can dismiss the sphere as a standard action. Like almost any spell you cast.

Where's it say that?

Citizen Joe
2007-09-09, 07:49 AM
Durations with a (D) at the end mean that they can be dismissed by the caster.