Pally/sorc healer build help.

[Menzath]

The title says most of it. And now for the rest.

So first off the other day 3/5 of the party died, including me(the cleric healer/arcanna domain).
So since the start of the game the team composition has changed drastically, and characters with a little bit of stealth or great escape survived this last time.
The reason why I would like to build a pally/sorc is
1: story thematics
2: better AC
3: flying mount
4: better escape spells
5: aura of vitality

But for story reasons my character will have been stuck somewhere and needs some way to have survived, magic initiate was my first thought, but that really hurts my stats.
And I feel that the skilled feat to get survival skills would do the same. So besides wasting a precious spell slot/known for create food and water, any ideas?

Now starting level is 9 and I felt like starting as a pally4/sorc5 and once I hit sorc 6 switching back to pally till 6, then sorc all the way.
As an aside, is there a good way to make a stealthy heavy armor pally/sorc?

[MaxWilson]

The title says most of it. And now for the rest.

So first off the other day 3/5 of the party died, including me(the cleric healer/arcanna domain).
So since the start of the game the team composition has changed drastically, and characters with a little bit of stealth or great escape survived this last time.
The reason why I would like to build a pally/sorc is
1: story thematics
2: better AC
3: flying mount
4: better escape spells
5: aura of vitality

But for story reasons my character will have been stuck somewhere and needs some way to have survived, magic initiate was my first thought, but that really hurts my stats.
And I feel that the skilled feat to get survival skills would do the same. So besides wasting a precious spell slot/known for create food and water, any ideas?

Now starting level is 9 and I felt like starting as a pally4/sorc5 and once I hit sorc 6 switching back to pally till 6, then sorc all the way.
As an aside, is there a good way to make a stealthy heavy armor pally/sorc?

Well, Paladin 9 gives you access to Create Food and Water, so at least you wouldn't need to waste a spells known on it--you'd just prepare it during your backstory to stay alive, and then prepare something else once play starts. It doesn't permanently impact your build because you want Paladin 9 anyway for Aura of Vitality. (Note: be sure to take Extended metamagic at Sorc 3 to get double healing out of Aura of Vitality. It is fantastic.)

If you go straight Paladin up to Paladin 9, you won't start as a sorc at all but you can be Paladin 9/Sorc 3 by level 12, which gives you the excellent healing you're looking for, as well as Quickened spells (e.g. Quickened Booming Blade for a total of 3 attacks per turn, all with Divine Smites if necessary).

Stealthy heavy armor: take Stealth proficiency and Enhance Ability to cancel out the disadvantage from heavy armor. This won't come online until Sorc 3, but your stealth may be good enough anyway, especially if other PCs are contributing via Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, or similar. (Also, you can take off your heavy armor for a while if you really want to sneak and not fight.)

If you want great survivability, I'd say take the Mounted Combatant feat to keep your steed alive. Mounted combat rules in 5E let you get "free" Dash/Disengage from your mount, gives you an extra opportunity attack (your mount's reaction), lets you use lances for bigger damage dice (d12) while still using a shield, and then on top of that you get free advantage against Medium-sized creatures from Mounted Combatant. For another character I'd be tempted to recommend Mobile instead of Mounted Combatant just to reduce the logistical hassle of buying a new mount if your current mount gets roasted by an AoE or killed by a monster while you're not riding it--but for a Paladin that isn't an issue.

So anyway, if I were in your shoes I'd just start as a straight Paladin 9 w/ Mounted Combatant, and then do Sorcerer after that.

[Menzath]

Well, Paladin 9 gives you access to Create Food and Water, so at least you wouldn't need to waste a spells known on it--you'd just prepare it during your backstory to stay alive, and then prepare something else once play starts. It doesn't permanently impact your build because you want Paladin 9 anyway for Aura of Vitality. (Note: be sure to take Extended metamagic at Sorc 3 to get double healing out of Aura of Vitality. It is fantastic.)

If you go straight Paladin up to Paladin 9, you won't start as a sorc at all but you can be Paladin 9/Sorc 3 by level 12, which gives you the excellent healing you're looking for, as well as Quickened spells (e.g. Quickened Booming Blade for a total of 3 attacks per turn, all with Divine Smites if necessary).

Stealthy heavy armor: take Stealth proficiency and Enhance Ability to cancel out the disadvantage from heavy armor. This won't come online until Sorc 3, but your stealth may be good enough anyway, especially if other PCs are contributing via Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, or similar. (Also, you can take off your heavy armor for a while if you really want to sneak and not fight.)

If you want great survivability, I'd say take the Mounted Combatant feat to keep your steed alive. Mounted combat rules in 5E let you get "free" Dash/Disengage from your mount, gives you an extra opportunity attack (your mount's reaction), lets you use lances for bigger damage dice (d12) while still using a shield, and then on top of that you get free advantage against Medium-sized creatures from Mounted Combatant. For another character I'd be tempted to recommend Mobile instead of Mounted Combatant just to reduce the logistical hassle of buying a new mount if your current mount gets roasted by an AoE or killed by a monster while you're not riding it--but for a Paladin that isn't an issue.

So anyway, if I were in your shoes I'd just start as a straight Paladin 9 w/ Mounted Combatant, and then do Sorcerer after that.


Thanks for the advice.
Part of the reason I wanted early levels of sorc is indeed for that metamagic. Part of the parties issues is that I'll most likely be the only character with healing in a party of 5.

And as for having a mount, having 5levels if sorc gives me high enough spell slots to get greater find mount from paladin(since when prepping pally spells it says you can choose a spell as high as your available spell slots.

As soon as I'm off work I'll definitely take a deeper look at what you proposed though.

[Vogie]

Another option is to choose Lore Bard in lieu of Divine Soul Sorcerer. You'll get just shy of double the spells known per level Song of Rest augments your out of combat healing, The Cutting Words feature can act as a sort of heal, by preventing hits from connecting with your party or just reducing damage directly. You'll be able to pick up some healing spells, as well as specific spells from any spell list starting at 6 with Magical Secrets.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the advice.
Part of the reason I wanted early levels of sorc is indeed for that metamagic. Part of the parties issues is that I'll most likely be the only character with healing in a party of 5.

And as for having a mount, having 5levels if sorc gives me high enough spell slots to get greater find mount from paladin(since when prepping pally spells it says you can choose a spell as high as your available spell slots.

As soon as I'm off work I'll definitely take a deeper look at what you proposed though.

This is a misreading of the rules. The rules you're quoting are for single-classed paladins. The rules for multiclassing are clear that multiclassing gives you extra slots, but not higher-level spells known. Otherwise I would totally agree with you that there is no real downside to taking sorcerer levels early, since you're getting high-level Paladins spells anyway. But multiclassing in 5E doesn't actually work that way.


Another option is to choose Lore Bard in lieu of Divine Soul Sorcerer. You'll get just shy of double the spells known per level Song of Rest augments your out of combat healing, The Cutting Words feature can act as a sort of heal, by preventing hits from connecting with your party or just reducing damage directly. You'll be able to pick up some healing spells, as well as specific spells from any spell list starting at 6 with Magical Secrets.

Cutting Words is awkward for a sorcerer tank because your reaction is already busy with Shield and opportunity attacks. It's probably more efficient to just straight-up heal the damage after combat using Extended Aura of Vitality (140 HP per cast).

[BlackRose]

Do note that for the purposes of preparing spells you treat it as your class level spell slots available, not your character level spell slots (phb 164).

That said you can still do some cool stuff. Metamagic gives you access to booming blade/greenflame blade. If two mooks are next to eachother You can twin booming blade and then quicken greenflame blade for tons of damage. And if you're a level 5+ sorc with haste (probably twinned) youll get an additional attack still. That said, you would require a lot of resources to do so and you don't really have those at a premium. But I imagine most of your spell slots would be better used as sorcery points than spells at certain points.

As was said, heavy armor and stealth don't mix well. Invisibility spell can at least make it so only the noise is an issue, which can give you certain advantages depending on the context of your sneaking (great for times when you have to be stelathy in a bustling city or some other loud occassion). Also mithril armor and boots of elvenkind can help in the noise department. Otherwise previous posts have answered that well

[Vogie]

Cutting Words is awkward for a sorcerer tank because your reaction is already busy with Shield and opportunity attacks. It's probably more efficient to just straight-up heal the damage after combat using Extended Aura of Vitality (140 HP per cast).

My mistake - I was under the impression that the OP wanted to be a durable healer, not a Tanky Sorcerer.

[MaxWilson]

My mistake - I was under the impression that the OP wanted to be a durable healer, not a Tanky Sorcerer.

He didn't actually say. He'll probably just read this thread, think through everyone's advice/opinions, consider his own desires, and make a decision accordingly.

[Menzath]

This is a misreading of the rules. The rules you're quoting are for single-classed paladins. The rules for multiclassing are clear that multiclassing gives you extra slots, but not higher-level spells known. Otherwise I would totally agree with you that there is no real downside to taking sorcerer levels early, since you're getting high-level Paladins spells anyway. But multiclassing in 5E doesn't actually work that way.



Cutting Words is awkward for a sorcerer tank because your reaction is already busy with Shield and opportunity attacks. It's probably more efficient to just straight-up heal the damage after combat using Extended Aura of Vitality (140 HP per cast).


My mistake - I was under the impression that the OP wanted to be a durable healer, not a Tanky Sorcerer.


He didn't actually say. He'll probably just read this thread, think through everyone's advice/opinions, consider his own desires, and make a decision accordingly.

Reading over all this wonderful feedback on my lunch, and my mistake on the spells known with multiclassing.

And yes my character is being pigeonholed into being a healer by the rest of the party. So being a healer is first and foremost.(not salty about this, just wish one other person had some way to help out)
I liked paladin for the survivablty aspect it brought to the table, and I liked sorcerer since divine soul opened cleric list without more crazy, and helped spell longevity with metamagic.

That being said, being AFB and still in conceptual phase of this character I'm still open to options, especially after being informed of the spells known while multiclassing.

[MaxWilson]

Reading over all this wonderful feedback on my lunch, and my mistake on the spells known with multiclassing.

And yes my character is being pigeonholed into being a healer by the rest of the party. So being a healer is first and foremost.(not salty about this, just wish one other person had some way to help out)
I liked paladin for the survivablty aspect it brought to the table, and I liked sorcerer since divine soul opened cleric list without more crazy, and helped spell longevity with metamagic.

That being said, being AFB and still in conceptual phase of this character I'm still open to options, especially after being informed of the spells known while multiclassing.

If you're just trying to be a top-notch healer, with no particular desire to tank, consider something like e.g. Shepherd Druid 6/Divine Soul 3. You can do Extended Healing Spirit for massive amounts of healing, and/or you can flood the battlefield with Conjure Animal V (16 CR 1/4 animals e.g. wolves, each of whom can damage even creatures that have magic attacks) while using your Spirit Totem to give everybody in the party PLUS your summons temporary HP and advantage on grappling/shoving checks. With Mage Armor, Shield, a shield, and decent Dex (e.g. Dex 14), you're still reasonably tanky (AC 17, AC 22 counting Shield spell), and you can transform into a Black Bear or a Constrictor Snake or a Giant Frog when you need some extra HP or a melee option. (At Druid 8 you can transform into a Giant Toad or a Brown Bear or a Giant Eagle, which are even better.)

You can explain your survival in a desolate place quite easily as a druid: Goodberry + Create Or Destroy Water.

[GorogIrongut]

If I were you I'd go 3 and 6. Either 3 levels of paladin and 6 of sorceror or the reverse, 3 levels of sorceror and 6 of paladin.
I'd go paladin of the ancients if I were you. But I'd start off sorceror to get the constitution proficiency.

Whichever of the two you choose, I'd work at taking your paladin to level 7 before taking Sorceror any farther. But once you hit 7, I'd probably dump the rest of my levels in Sorceror.

[SirGraystone]

I would take 2 level of paladin for divine smite, then the rest in sorcerer for higher level spells and more spell slots to feed the divine smite.

[MaxWilson]

I would take 2 level of paladin for divine smite, then the rest in sorcerer for higher level spells and more spell slots to feed the divine smite.

If you choose to do this be advised that Divine Smite is a relatively inefficient use of spell slots. Without any Extra Attack from Paladin 5, you're going to cap out at something like two Divine Smites per turn (e.g. Booming Blade + Quickened Booming Blade, smiting on both) which will give you 4d8 + Str (from Booming Blade) + 5d8 (from smiting) damage per hit, which means about 80 HP of damage * hit rate %, at a cost of 2 sorcery points and two 4th+ level spell slots. Without smiting it would be 40 HP of damage. Is inflicting 20 HP of damage really worth a 4th level spell slot? Maybe if you're fighting a glass cannon, but in the common case it's better to just take an extra round to kill the bad guy and save those spell slots for healing the HP damage afterwards.

It's fairly difficult actually to find scenarios where Divine Smite is the optimal use of spell slots.

[Specter]

You'll probably want Divine Soul Sorcerer, since they can grab all the Cleric healing goodies.

Mithral armor gives no stealth disadvantage.

[Citan]

The title says most of it. And now for the rest.

So first off the other day 3/5 of the party died, including me(the cleric healer/arcanna domain).
So since the start of the game the team composition has changed drastically, and characters with a little bit of stealth or great escape survived this last time.
The reason why I would like to build a pally/sorc is
1: story thematics
2: better AC
3: flying mount
4: better escape spells
5: aura of vitality

But for story reasons my character will have been stuck somewhere and needs some way to have survived, magic initiate was my first thought, but that really hurts my stats.
And I feel that the skilled feat to get survival skills would do the same. So besides wasting a precious spell slot/known for create food and water, any ideas?

Now starting level is 9 and I felt like starting as a pally4/sorc5 and once I hit sorc 6 switching back to pally till 6, then sorc all the way.
As an aside, is there a good way to make a stealthy heavy armor pally/sorc?
Hi!

Well, first, small disclaimer...

Reading over all this wonderful feedback on my lunch, and my mistake on the spells known with multiclassing.

And yes my character is being pigeonholed into being a healer by the rest of the party. So being a healer is first and foremost.(not salty about this, just wish one other person had some way to help out)
I liked paladin for the survivablty aspect it brought to the table, and I liked sorcerer since divine soul opened cleric list without more crazy, and helped spell longevity with metamagic.

That being said, being AFB and still in conceptual phase of this character I'm still open to options, especially after being informed of the spells known while multiclassing.
If you REALLY want to be a great healer first and foremost, there are only three real ways to do so (at least that keep simple enough to be realistic) for a level 9 character.

1. Plain old Life Cleric 9: great AC, all the great Cleric spells, and an ability that you can use twice per short rest that is like Mass Healing Words except better because no waste and much higher healing. Plus you can use ASI to get both Resilient: Constitution and whatever you like with.
Although, honestly, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for a very simple reason: since you bootstrap at level 9, you can afford dual or tri-class because less leveling pain.
This is the easiest way to build and play.
Leveling would be going straight up to Cleric 12 (Divine Intervention, lvl 6 spells, +2 WIS) then whatever you want.

2. Life Cleric 6 / Shepherd Druid 3: you won't have the best spells, and you'll have lesser armor. On the plus side you have many great rituals, Life Goodberries to spam on preparation days, and Healing Spirit for outofcombat healing or help two guys hold a small corridor.
Alternative could be swapping Druid with Sorcerer if you can manage the added stat requirement if you really want the metamagic.
Druid brings many great things to the table though, so tough choice.
This is by far the most versatile in spell choice and overall the most balanced and flexible for all you want (all kind of magic available, + Wild Shape), but it also means you may deplete your fuel quickly. ^^
Level up would be aiming to Cleric 8 (lvl 4 spells, ASI) / Druid 5 (ASI, level 3 spells) then whatever you want.

3. Draconic|Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 / Lore Bard 6: I'd pick Divine Soul anyways: Metamagics will be obviously Extended for the first (Mage Armour / Aid / Darkvision / Healing Spirit / Enhance Ability), and either Quicken (costly) or Subtle (less so, useful in any situation) or possibly Distant (more niche, but great specifically for Healing Words, Counterspell, Bestow Curse) for second.
Drawback of this build is having less spell choices and bad armor unless you pick decent DEX and Mage Armor.
This is the most restrictive build in spell choice, but if you know what you are doing can be extremely efficient and it's nearly as flexible as the previous one although in different ways (Subtle to prevent Counterspell or detection of social interaction influence, many utility cantrips to help, Bardic Inspiration to help in and out of combat, AND Magic Secrets mean you still get Healing Spirit and whatever else you'd like).
Level up would be Sorcerer 8 ASAP (ASI*2, level 3 and 4 spells, decent Sorcery points pool) OR possibly getting just Sorcerer 5 then triclassing straight into Paladin for medium armor and shield, spells and possibly Auras.

If tanking is equally important to you, then straight Crown Paladin is probably the easiest option with Life Cleric (first through crowd control and possibly Aura of Vitality, second through huge spike healing and Healing Words / Command), then Devotion Paladin 6 / Shadow Sorcerer 3.

[MagneticKitty]

Another decent healer is path of tranquility monk. Throw in magic initiate druid for good berry and an attack cantrip.
That's 90 hp you can heal per day. Which is decent. You can heal this way with a bonus action for a ki point (flurry of blows) .
Also asimar as a race gets healing.

Also you could play a warforged and not need to eat ever.

[CTurbo]

Dex Paladin 7/Divine Soul Sorcerer 13

Half-Plate + Defensive Style + Shield + Medium Armor Master feat = 21AC and won't suffer disadvantage on Stealth checks.
Or without the feat, Breastplate + Defensive Style + Shield still gives you 19AC which is still good.

Magic Initiate - Druid would get you Goodberry and a couple of fun utility cantrips.