Crazy DM

[Batman45505]

So my dm says he wants to do some crazy adventure. I have so many Options available that I am undesisive, so I humbly come before you. I will give the details and I hope you all can give me a hand. We can use any D20 resource for all aspects of these characters.

We can be any race and I mean any. With race and templates we have a total of 30 levels. Class wise we get 4 classes at level 20 each and 4 prestige classes with 10 levels each. Again we can use ANY D20 resource compatible with D&D 3.0 or 3.5. Races also allowed are monstrous. THANKS

[Arcanist]

We can be any race and I mean any. With race and templates we have a total of 30 levels. Class wise we get 4 classes at level 20 each and 4 prestige classes with 10 levels each. Again we can use ANY D20 resource compatible with D&D 3.0 or 3.5. Races also allowed are monstrous. THANKS

So up to 30 LA in templates, any races (assuming all racial HD are ignored because its already pretty insane so far and we matter as well throw out all reason), all characters are Omni-theurges, with 4 prestige classes of their choice of any combination of level 10 prestige classes...

Okay. So are you guys trying to do a table top re-creation of the Elder Dragon Wars (https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Dragon_War)?

[Batman45505]

He is not giving us any details on the campaign

[Batman45505]

Any monstrous race that is used and not found in savage species will get their levels with LA and normal hit die calculations so race is la for race +la for templet to equal 30 total

[Darrin]

D&D 3.x starts to careen off the rails after about 15+ levels. It turns into Brockian-Ultra-Calvinball after 20+ and is more or less unplayable after that point. The "rules" you've given here say to me, "Walk away slowly, without any sudden movements. Nothing good can come from this."

[Arcanist]

Any monstrous race that is used and not found in savage species will get their levels with LA and normal hit die calculations so race is la for race +la for templet to equal 30 total

Just play a Paragon Mindflayer, which has an expressed ECL of 26 (for some reason) and take Illithid Savant. As I said before, just try and make a Quad-Theurge (Arcane, Divine, Psionics, and 20 levels of Artificer if you want to maybe do Item Creation stuff) and you should be fine. The game has more or less lost any semblance of balance at this level of play, so feel free to play whatever you wish.

If I were to be playing a game like this, I'd honestly just play a Clockwork Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time) and just call myself "Karn". I wonder what kind of theats your DM could possibly be throwing at you to require such power. Maybe Stuffy Doll got out again? :smalleek:

[Falontani]

The current villainous competition will have templated monsters (they are only allowed to have up to 2 class levels and are required to be CR20) so may be a good place to start looking for inspiration for your character

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247756-Librim-Eternia-Tome-of-Epic-Prestige-(Completed)

IF this is allowed here will be your fun epicly balanced epic prestige classes that are fun

[Mike Miller]

Just play a Paragon Mindflayer, which has an expressed ECL of 26 (for some reason) and take Illithid Savant.

Don't forget Thrallherd along with Illithid Savant for extra tasty cheese.

[Arcanist]

Don't forget Thrallherd along with Illithid Savant for extra tasty cheese.

Nah, just buy 20th level slaves of the brains you want to eat, and you'll be fine. Hell, this is an Epic Illithid Savant we're talking about here, this guy can probably afford to cast Origin of Species: X to make a creature of their own choosing with an ability they want.

And incidentally, since "ANY D20 resource compatible with D&D 3.0 or 3.5." is allowed, we get access to the Metamorphosis Seed from Legends of Athas (http://athas.org/products/loa). We can even justify taking 10 levels of Athasian Dragon as well, because why not? Lets Throw in Netherese Arcanist as well while we're at it as well, again, because why not?

[theAui]

Action Economy and going first will be king in such a game. For a lot of actions, maybe you can roll a beholder mage, possibly with dual actions templated in. The Spell foresight is mandatory for initiative, make sure you still invest in other means to max initiative, though.

[Acanous]

This game sounds like you’re supposed to roll pun-pun.
Like actually roll pun-pun. I’ve never been that guy who tells one of the people making a “help me with x” thread to make pun pun, that’s usually a bit of hyperbole levied against us by people that hate forum-delvers,

But seriously. Make Pun-pun. You’ll probably never have the opportunity again

[daremetoidareyo]

Go gully dwarf commoner! Omni stalt with more commoner

[PhantasyPen]

IF anyone in your group has access to B a s t a r d s &Bloodlines (Note that this book uses that word in the traditional sense, not necessarily as a slur) I would recommend a Half-Titan Fire Jovian, from there you can basically be whatever class you want, you'll have guaranteed access to one of the best spell lists in the game and a strength modifier higher than some character's entire Attack Bonus.

[manyslayer]

Any D20 source?

Get a copy of the Stargate RPG and take levels in system lord to get a fleet of spaceships.

[noob]

Just take 21 levels in any T1 class and the epic spellcasting feat then the rest is pure character sheet noise.

[Ruethgar]

Generally I would have to agree that you should just walk away. But assuming you don’t.

If you want a dragon, Awakened Advanced Magebred Lizard Animal Friend(ECL 0, 20 RHD Tiny but can be 6’ long) Dragonblood Association. You can also add to that Human Heritage for a nice White Dragonspawn Abomination for a potential +7 sorcerer spellcasting levels at LA +1. So from ECL 1 you go +3 levels of Half Dragon, +3 levels of Draconic, Paragon +12, Loredrake, you count as a version of a true dragon so Spellhaording +0, Ravening +0 if you want it. AEGs book Dragons has a few metabreath feats that let you apply spells with your breath weapon and let you strafe with it. Muliheaded, forgot the LA but being able to multicast is well worth it in this situation, Lernaean if you want a little extra resilience. I don’t use it much, but the Book of Templates has some OP ones including one that basically gives you your choice of SLAs at will for +4.

[ComaVision]

I would just make up abilities, rather than make a character sheet for this. There's no way the DM is going to be auditing these characters anyway.

[MeimuHakurei]

I would just make up abilities, rather than make a character sheet for this. There's no way the DM is going to be auditing these characters anyway.

I'm not sure - only two types of DMs would run a game like that: Those without a clue what they're getting themselves into and those who know exactly what they're doing.

[noob]

I'm not sure - only two types of DMs would run a game like that: Those without a clue what they're getting themselves into and those who know exactly what they're doing.
If that gm knew what he was doing he would have said more than that: he would also have told his cheese tolerance and how much nonsense spellcasting abuse he was ready to see.(like how many ice assassins of gods you can fling)

[Mike Miller]

I doubt this DM knows what he is doing. That is an absurd level of power. So absurd, the DM is probably making up enemies. Can you imagine statting a DM's worth of enemies at that power level? It is enough work for a single player to make one PC.

[Anachronity]

Seems to me like the GM is the big question here.

Does he just not know what he's doing? If so, he probably just wants a more abstract superhero-level game, and he's going to get confused when large attack and damage numbers don't challenge the party but then you're suddenly stuck when he sends you to the antimagic demiplane. I would just talk to him, or else accept that combat outcomes are more or less just going to happen via GM fiat and instead try to interact mostly with the story with plot abilities like teleport, plane shift, and divinations.


If he does know what he's doing, this might be just plain wish fulfillment. A good GM will accept that such a campaign is meant for the players, but unfortunately I give 50/50 odds of an obnoxious GMPC showing up. I would just make whatever you would want to play, and then ditch if either a glorious paladin mounted on an exotic dragon keeps saving you guys and showing you up, or else if beatboxing kung-fu magic is the only legitimate means of fighting because the GM recently took a liking to an anime about that.


In the off chance he's been planning this same campaign for 12+ years (which is about how long it would take for all the enemies to not just be cheats that do whatever the GM needs them to do at that given moment and die only when the GM allows them to), then you might be in for something actually very interesting. Hopefully your GM has put a thought towards game balance in this case.

[GrayDeath]

I agree, tis sounds poorly thought out, though it might be the OP not really posting all restrictions/details.

If however this actually HAPPENED and in a well done way, I would love to play it myself. Just saying. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Quertus]

Here's a crazy interpretation: the GM looked at the optimization level of the group, and said, "hmmm.... to get them to the power level I want to play at, what character creation rules would I need to give them?".

Bonus points if the GM is pitting them against a mid-level version of Tucker's Kobalds. :smalltongue:

Personally, I'd really love to see write-ups of some of these suggested characters! :smalltongue:

[noob]

Does he just not know what he's doing? If so, he probably just wants a more abstract superhero-level game, and he's going to get confused when large attack and damage numbers don't challenge the party but then you're suddenly stuck when he sends you to the antimagic demiplane. I would just talk to him, or else accept that combat outcomes are more or less just going to happen via GM fiat and instead try to interact mostly with the story with plot abilities like teleport, plane shift, and divinations.

Against anti-magic just take three levels in cleric among the giant pile of levels you have and take initiate of mystra to get all your spells to work 100% fine in antimagic.
I mean if you are playing above level 20 why would you ever not play an initiate of mystra?

[Andor13]

Time to break out the Draconomicon?

I mean, at that level of WTH you could be looking at an Great Wyrm Dragon who has capped out several of the Dragon only classes and PRCs. Put the Dragon back into D&D.

[noob]

Time to break out the Draconomicon?

I mean, at that level of WTH you could be looking at an Great Wyrm Dragon who has capped out several of the Dragon only classes and PRCs. Put the Dragon back into D&D.

Still why use a dragon when anyway you could be a sparrow, a sandwich or your own spellbook(or all four of them through soul splitting shenanigans) and still have the same powers due to how everything with 21 levels in T1 casting is the same(still grab initiate of mystra for saving time on shenanigans to bypass antimagic).
Anyway in general you can not just play the character you want: you can play all the characters you want at once and give them all the powers of all the things you want on top of that and make them have all the minions you ever want and all the boosts you ever want and even all the animated planets with the powers of solars you want.
tl dr: you can get all the imaginable options ever at once even for options which does not makes sense.

[MeimuHakurei]

Keep us updated on how the game goes - I wanna see where this is all headed.

[Batman45505]

Game session 1: So far our characters were teleported to an unknown land in which none of our recent abilities or spells worked. We were forced into an arena type setting where we had to fight for our lives. Upon completing our goal we were sent to meet the person responsible for bringing us there. After a series of questions and answering by this Powerful being we were told the only way we can obtain our freedom is to partake an epic journey to retrieve for him the hand and eye of Vecna.

Going off of my past history with the Dungeon Master, I already think I have a good idea of where this is going. The powerful being is going to turn out to be Vecna. Upon receiving his hand and eye We will get the option to either join him as his minions or face him and die. I am sure most of you have been in such a scenario.

I'm hoping I'm wrong because it would be such a disappointment to create these high leveled epic characters just to have figured out the entire storyline before it even begins. The next gaming session is tomorrow night and I will keep you updated as to what is going on.

[EldritchWeaver]

So what char did you create?

[Batman45505]

Paragon Mindflayer Monster of Legend psion, illithid savant then then did the clockwork mage with it.

Found a feat in one of the dms books that allowed me to interchange metamagic and metamind feats. Did a back story that the dn allowed that made my character start life as a human and took chosen of mysta and spellfire chaneller with spellfire mage, but shar cursed him and changed him to a mind flayer.

[noob]

Paragon Mindflayer Monster of Legend psion, illithid savant then then did the clockwork mage with it.

Found a feat in one of the dms books that allowed me to interchange metamagic and metamind feats. Did a back story that the dn allowed that made my character start life as a human and took chosen of mysta and spellfire chaneller with spellfire mage, but shar cursed him and changed him to a mind flayer.

So you had mystra initiate and were able to cast in antimagic zones is not it?
How did the gm shut down your powers then?
Was there an antimagic measure better than antimagic zone?
(Technically dead magic is not better than antimagic zones since it counts as antimagic for stopping spells)

[MrSandman]

Game session 1: So far our characters were teleported to an unknown land in which none of our recent abilities or spells worked. We were forced into an arena type setting where we had to fight for our lives. Upon completing our goal we were sent to meet the person responsible for bringing us there. After a series of questions and answering by this Powerful being we were told the only way we can obtain our freedom is to partake an epic journey to retrieve for him the hand and eye of Vecna.


Tells players to create extraordinarily powerful characters. Puts them in a place where none of their powerful abilities works.

Lol?

[Crichton]

Paragon Mindflayer Monster of Legend psion, illithid savant then then did the clockwork mage with it.

Found a feat in one of the dms books that allowed me to interchange metamagic and metamind feats. Did a back story that the dn allowed that made my character start life as a human and took chosen of mysta and spellfire chaneller with spellfire mage, but shar cursed him and changed him to a mind flayer.

Just out of curiosity, what 9 spells did you choose to be immune to, as a Chosen of Mystra? Also, in-universe, I don't think even the gods can shut down Mystra's silver fire, since she controls the Weave, if you're going with the Forgotten Realms lore.

[noob]

Tells players to create extraordinarily powerful characters. Puts them in a place where none of their powerful abilities works.

Lol?

On one hand I think that is not cool for the adventurers living that.
On the other hand it improve the absurdness of that silly epic world to have absurdities like that happening.

[Anachronity]

Game session 1: So far our characters were teleported to an unknown land in which none of our recent abilities or spells worked.
Does he just not know what he's doing? If so, he probably just wants a more abstract superhero-level game, and he's going to get confused when large attack and damage numbers don't challenge the party but then you're suddenly stuck when he sends you to the antimagic demiplane. I would just talk to him, or else accept that combat outcomes are more or less just going to happen via GM fiat and instead try to interact mostly with the story with plot abilities like teleport, plane shift, and divinations.Called it! :smalltongue:



So you had mystra initiate and were able to cast in antimagic zones is not it?
How did the gm shut down your powers then?
Was there an antimagic measure better than antimagic zone?
(Technically dead magic is not better than antimagic zones since it counts as antimagic for stopping spells)In theory being able to cast when the GM says you can't is a good ability.

In practice, if you have the sort of GM who is going to forcefully put you in a dead magic zone, they're probably just going to say "no, you still can't cast spells, a god did it, nyah!"

[Batman45505]

Ok so the dm was getting overwhelmed at the fact that with epic spellcasting with metamagic and metapsionic abilities. We are fighting an epic advanced terrasque so i begin with an empowered mazimized timestop through my quicken metamagic wand and start the whole spell barrage. Now he is saying casting that many epic spells is taxing on my character and am mentally fatigued and was unable to cast spells for 1d20 turns..... His excuse is it is a variant rule for casters found in the books. I have never encountered that rule. Is he pulling bs out his butt or sid i miss that rule? The most he is willing to allow me to cast is 4 spells a rd provided there is no metamagic involved.

[AvatarVecna]

Ok so the dm was getting overwhelmed at the fact that with epic spellcasting with metamagic and metapsionic abilities. We are fighting an epic advanced terrasque so i begin with an empowered mazimized timestop through my quicken metamagic wand and start the whole spell barrage. Now he is saying casting that many epic spells is taxing on my character and am mentally fatigued and was unable to cast spells for 1d20 turns..... His excuse is it is a variant rule for casters found in the books. I have never encountered that rule. Is he pulling bs out his butt or sid i miss that rule? The most he is willing to allow me to cast is 4 spells a rd provided there is no metamagic involved.

The book this rule can be found in is betwixt the DM's cheeks. At least, I'm pretty sure that's where it's being pulled from. It also speaks more evidence to the DM's incompetence: a DM comfortable with epic would have real mechanics limiting your spellcasting - auto-counterspelling auras or something, for instance, while a DM who just randomly makes up rules to shut you down has no idea what they're doing and is in over their head.

[Mordaedil]

The taxing part of epic spells is already built into the epic spells themselves, he doesn't have to add additional bullcrap on top of it.

[MrSandman]

This basically means that your Dungeon Master had no real idea of what they were getting themselves into. First you can't use your epic powers, then rules pop up ad hoc to solve unforeseen situations...

Really, talk to your Dungeon Master and go back to playing 12th-level characters.

[MeimuHakurei]

This basically means that your Dungeon Master had no real idea of what they were getting themselves into. First you can't use your epic powers, then rules pop up ad hoc to solve unforeseen situations...

Really, talk to your Dungeon Master and go back to playing 12th-level characters.

I'd first ask what kind of power level the DM expected and why they felt the need to push the player levels that high - maybe you can run a short-term/one-shot game at 15-18th level as an example for high-level play.

[GrayDeath]

Sigh, too bad, I had actually hoped for a REAL game with this setup.
Never seen one or even heard of one from a reliable source.

Too bad it seems we were right with assuming the DM has no fricking Idea what he`s doing....

[Arael666]

At lvl 30 you can get pretty mauch lots of monstrous HD or LA and still not hurt your character lvl progression.

I really like melee, so while other people may sugest casters I would go with this:

Antro Baleen Whale, Half Minotaur, Mineral Warrior, for the price of 3 LA and 2 monstrous humanoid HD (not that bad of a HD) you get +22 STR, +2 DEX, +14 CON, -4 INT, +2 WIS, -6 CHA, 17 Natural Armor and lotsa other goodies

[chimaeraUndying]

I'm not sure why other templates are being suggested when Symbiotic and Tauric are on the table (and Eldrich, if we're also using Pathfinder stuff). You can just be a symbiotic tauric creature of four symbiotic tauric creatures, each of which are themselves a combination of three symbiotic tauric creatures and one other creature you want the fun stuff from, ad infinitum.

Even if you're not going with the absolutely insane interpretation, you can still rack up some truly wild freebies from other things with them -- no reason to take a template, race, or monster when you can symbiote or taur your way into being it and more.

[noob]

I'm not sure why other templates are being suggested when Symbiotic and Tauric are on the table (and Eldrich, if we're also using Pathfinder stuff). You can just be a symbiotic tauric creature of four symbiotic tauric creatures, each of which are themselves a combination of three symbiotic tauric creatures and one other creature you want the fun stuff from, ad infinitum.

Even if you're not going with the absolutely insane interpretation, you can still rack up some truly wild freebies from other things with them -- no reason to take a template, race, or monster when you can symbiote or taur your way into being it and more.

Do not forget monstrous lycanthrope if it is allowed and also amalgam creature(again if allowed) it can allow to have all the powers of all the creature you want while increasing of less than 9 your cr if you nest it enough.
Also there is a class allowing to transfer yourself in a machine while losing none of your abilities and you gain the ones of the machine.
Transfer yourself in another machine with that power you kept in the same way as the first time and gain again extra abilities without losing any.
Restart with all the trompe l'oeuils you want until you have all the desired powers.

[chimaeraUndying]

I'd completely forgotten about ML and Trompes, dangit, but that's the first time I'd heard of amalgam -- must've missed it, since it's from 2014.

Now you've got me thinking about what the optimal stack of tauric, symbiotic, amalgam, and monstrous lycanthrope would be. Hmmm...

[noob]

I'd completely forgotten about ML and Trompes, dangit, but that's the first time I'd heard of amalgam -- must've missed it, since it's from 2014.

Now you've got me thinking about what the optimal stack of tauric, symbiotic, amalgam, and monstrous lycanthrope would be. Hmmm...

Simply putting monstrous lycanthrope of human 200 times(a monstrous lycanthrope of an human which is monstrous ... you get the idea) and then putting on the last base monster all the cool stuff you want which is amalgam of all the monsters and T1 mythic spellcasters and awesome martial builds you want (since the cr of the last creature will get divided 200 times in a row by 3)
There is a minimum of +1 cr so you will have all the powers you want for +1 cr.

[Anachronity]

Ok so the dm was getting overwhelmed at the fact that with epic spellcasting with metamagic and metapsionic abilities. We are fighting an epic advanced terrasque so i begin with an empowered mazimized timestop through my quicken metamagic wand and start the whole spell barrage. Now he is saying casting that many epic spells is taxing on my character and am mentally fatigued and was unable to cast spells for 1d20 turns..... His excuse is it is a variant rule for casters found in the books. I have never encountered that rule. Is he pulling bs out his butt or sid i miss that rule? The most he is willing to allow me to cast is 4 spells a rd provided there is no metamagic involved.It's not a real rule, and there are only nominally going to be actual rules of any sort in this game.

The problem is that the books say having a +30 to attack instead of a +10 is the same as having 9th-level spells instead of 4th-level spells, when they are not in any way comparable. This confuses inexperienced GMs, who expect that their templated, melee-reliant superbeast that the book says is CR 30 will challenge an actual 30th-level party.

I will echo what has already been suggested: talk to the GM. If he's not willing to listen then you may want to quit.

If you don't want to quit (if it's an IRL game then there's a good chance your friends are also playing and it's as much about socializing as about the game) well, then your character is already a monster. Just play him as one. Be the mindflayer!

When people say "there's no reason not to do X", they're speaking from a perspective of game design, not of actual in-practice gameplay. Your GM expects that a high-level character is basically just larger numbers than a lower-level one with a few neat tricks. These tricks might win a fight if used cleverly or if something is particularly vulnerable to them, but they otherwise don't interrupt the status quo of normal melee attacks being valid and important. Play along with that expectation. Buff yourself just enough that you can stand toe-to-toe with the baddies, or launch some spells that do thirty d6s or so but don't sweep all who oppose you into oblivion with a single uncaring gesture. Take liberties in describing the dramatic combat between you and the 25th-level dual-wielding champion of justice that is actually just an 8th level character with higher numbers.


You're still going to get railroaded, because it sounds like your GM also doesn't understand how to give the players meaningful choices, but at least this way you might have some fun stories to relate.

[Batman45505]

I was bummed about the game and thought the dm was able too run it well since hes been running and playing the game since 1978. Lol i was so wrong. I will say that in 2e he ran a level 50 campaign which absolutely rocked. End game reward was a piece of ambrosia which would allow one character to transcend to godhood. Having one piece left the party all wanting it to it became a battle royal.

[EldritchWeaver]

Did you get a chance to talk the GM about your issues?

[Anachronity]

I was bummed about the game and thought the dm was able too run it well since hes been running and playing the game since 1978. Lol i was so wrong. I will say that in 2e he ran a level 50 campaign which absolutely rocked. End game reward was a piece of ambrosia which would allow one character to transcend to godhood. Having one piece left the party all wanting it to it became a battle royal.2nd edition has a lot fewer dimensions of complexity, making the task of running that campaign a lot easier on him. It's a very dangerous edition where even epic-level characters can realistically bite it to a single failed save versus poison. Factor in that most high-level spells take longer to cast than someone running up and hitting you with a sword, plus the fact that a large number of high-level spells actively encourage the GM to screw with you, and it's not difficult to challenge the players with a block of stats that has three to four curveball abilities.

That amounts to a lot more time spent developing the story, and it still remains easy to improvise if something unexpected happens.



Smash-cut to 3.5, and we have characters that are not just able to do anything in a single turn, but everything within a single turn (or less than that, with things like Celerity, Contingency, Time Stop, and other planes with alternate time traits). Preparing a proper and engaging challenge ahead of time for such a character can take weeks, which are weeks not spent developing the plot, and your GM's improvisational skills which had once been adequate are now limited to kludgy impromptu meganerfs because no easily-conceived threat can harm you otherwise.


Again I urge you to talk to your GM; he's in over his head (and again I expect you'll give us no indication that you have done so, or that you even read my lengthy rants :smallfrown:)

The most elegant solution I can think of is a Co-GM; your current GM manages the story and background of the villains, and delegates to the Co-GM by describing them. The Co-GM then does the legwork in mechanically designing these villains and devising what strategies they might employ even before they roll for initiative, since pre-fight planning is a huge factor in epic levels and the villains must be able to do the same.

Even then there need to be limitations beyond just the written rules of the game, because once a character or villain makes the leap of living in a fast-time demiplane and acting only through his army of deific ice assassins it truly does become calvinball.